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Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Yahoo Message Number: 66594
For those that might be interested, a detailed guide for installing a Lightning Rod Heating 110 volt ac heating element is in WaterHeaterAC.pdf in the files section of the "Techsnoz" site.  You can get to "Techsnoz" using the "Link" on this site.
 Atwood makes a Propane/AC model 6 gallon waterheater that retails for about $60 more  (if I remeber right) than the propane only model that Lazy Daze uses.  Anyone ordering a new rig could ask for the dual power model water heater and really upset the folks at the factory.
If enough people asked for it, they might make it an option.
 If the factory would just install the dual power model, it is not hard to wire it up yourself.
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66598
"........Atwood makes a Propane/AC model 6 gallon waterheater that retails for about $60 more  (if I remeber right) than the propane only model that Lazy Daze uses." (Terry)

Now THAT'S something I could really get behind! A dual gas/electric hot water tank with a trouble-free factory built-in AC heating element with fast heat-up and recovery times---what's not to like?
" Anyone ordering a new rig could ask for the dual power model water heater and really upset the folks at the factory. If enough people asked for it, they might make it an option.........." (Terry)

Worth trying, but I'm not holding my breath on this one.  Thank you Terry for the information.

Will

PS If you really want to upset them, ask for a gas/AC/engine heat exchanger combo. Hot water when you travel; hot water when you arrive.

W.
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66625
Quote
And so now I can annoy my neighbors by having my water heater kick in and run throughout the night or I can be inconvenienced by having to turn it off before I go to bed and then relight it again in the morning.

 We've had electric/gas water heaters in every RV we've owned, except the Lazy Daze.  I agree that it would be nice to have so that you could run the water heater on electric when hooked up.  However, we never leave our water heater running on propane all day, all night.  We turn it on in the morning and, maybe, again at night.  It only takes about 10 minutes (at the most) to heat up 6 gallons, so why leave it on all the time?

Linda Hylton

2004 Red 23.5' TK http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66628
I agree with Linda, I turn the water heater on when I want hot water and it is hot in a very few minutes, then I turn it off.  I usually do this 3 or more times a day.  I don't understand why you would leave it on all the time.  For one thing, the water heater is pretty well insulated and the water stays hot for along time and heats up a lot quicker on successive turn ons. For another, to use the hot water you have to be up and fairly close to the switch so .. why not just turn it on when you need it and then turn it back off?  I hate parking by people who leave their water heaters on all the time, especially some of the big pusher class As seem to do this and their water heaters make a lot of noise.

-- Jonna in Tortuga, 2001 Teal RB Find us MAPhttp://map.datastormusers.com/user2.cfm?user=1013> Follow the BLOG herehttp://www.baddog.com/blog/blog.html>
[Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Inst
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66635
Quote
"... I usually do this 3 or more times a day... I don't understand
why you would leave it on all the time... I hate parking by people who leave their water heaters on all the time...and their water heaters make a lot of noise."

Quote
-- Jonna in Tortuga, 2001 Teal RB
Thank you Jonna, you've made my point for me! If you had an LP/AC water heater in the 1st place, whenever you plug into shore power you have also turned on your water heater. No thoughts about if and when you must throw a switch in order to have/not have hot water. Plus no worry about bothering your neighbor, they are dead quiet. And since you're paying for the electricity anyway, why not? At home do you give any thought to turning on or turning off your water heater? Then why do you need the hassle in your RV. After all, isn't the reason you have a LD is to get away from all the inconveniences and worries? It's just one more thing you don't have to think about.

Steve S.
Lazy Bones
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66649
"Now THAT'S something I could really get behind! A dual gas/electric hot water tank with a trouble-free factory built-in AC heating element with fast heat-up and recovery times---

what's not to like?"

Well for one thing it would probably require upgrading the 30 amp electrical service to a 50 amp service. That adds a bit to LD's construction cost so it's not a $60 difference.
50 amp service is not as universal as 30 amp, another disadvantage.
The water heater's 1400 watt heating element, combined with the A/C (or an electric space heater), converter and refrigerator (on shore power) exceeded 30 amps. The microwave adds even more load.
If you are willing to manually control the various loads, yes it will work.

Seems like a lot of expense and trouble to save a few pennies.

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66668
Quote
Well for one thing it would probably require upgrading the 30 amp electrical service to a 50 amp service.

 As I mentioned earlier, the Lazy Daze is the only RV we've ever owned that did not have an electric/gas water heater...and we've had 30-amp service in all of them.  It does not require 50-amp service to have an electric water heater.

Linda Hylton

2004 Red 23.5' TK http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66670
As I mentioned earlier, the Lazy Daze is the only RV we've ever owned that did not have an electric/gas water heater...and we've had 30-amp service in all of them.  It does not require 50-amp service to have an electric water heater.

Linda Hylton 2004 Red 23.5' TK


 This discussion prompted me to go over to the (horrors!) Born Free web site, http://www.bornfreemotorcoach.com/index.php

and even the smallest model comes with a 6 gal gas/electric hot water heater as standard equipment, so as you note, it's not only doable but in current usage by another high quality motorhome manufacturer.
 But not to be outdone, WE now have metal door clips. The boys on the Research and Development Team must have put in a ton of overtime on that one.

Will
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation/ Born Free
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66689
[snip]
 
Quote
This discussion prompted me to go over to the (horrors!) Born Free web site, http://www.bornfreemotorcoach.com/index.php

and even the smallest model comes with a 6 gal gas/electric hot water heater as standard equipment, so as you note, it's not only doable but in current usage by another high quality motorhome manufacturer.
[snip]

Quote
Will
Will,
 I checked out the Born Free website, too, as I wanted to compare the 30' (actually 1" short of 31'LD) Lazy Daze specs with the 32' Born Free models.  Yes, they do come with the gas/electric water heater as standard equipment.

In my opinion, though, the big plus is the 19,500 lb GVWR on the BF Chevy C5500 chassis.  It also comes standard with power lighted and heated mirrors.
 The bad news:  a base price of close to $122K.  In addition, these are all optional items, they don't come standard on the Born Free: a porcelain toilet; an oven; a generator; roof A/C; or an awning.  All these items add weight to the posted aproximate weight of the BF.  The lovely CCC figure would drop dramatically if those are added in.  It also looks as though a solar system such as LD offers is not an option.  BF does offer 1, 53 Watt-12 volt solar panel as an option.
They also offer a diesel engine as an option in this model, if you're so inclined.
 I do like the BF's "inclined bed" option, but not enough to sell our LD and buy a BF.  Plunk a Lazy Daze on that same chassis, and I might be tempted.

Sharon N.
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation/ Born Free
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66695
..........In addition, these are all optional items, they don't come standard on the Born Free: a porcelain toilet; an oven; a generator; roof A/C; or an awning.  ............

Sharon N.


 When I was looking to buy, this is one of the things that bothered me with almost ever other brand (auto makers raised this to the level of an art form decades ago): suckering you in with the lowest base price they could manage to post, then hitting you with an option list with all the stuff you would normally want anyway. Born Free is a premium motorhome, and not the worst offender, but starting with a six-figure base price, then adding as "options" things like an awning, air conditioning, and a china toilet just insults a buyer's intelligence.
Lazy Daze on the other hand, and almost alone amongst everything I looked at, had a comprehensive value-oriented list of standard equipment, and a skimpy but up-front option list. If it wasn't on the list, and you couldn't weasel it in as a "stealth option", you knew you weren't gonna get it. Period.

So I passed on the Born Free--didn't even bother to visit a dealer.
Didn't like any of the floor plans all that much anyway.

Will

PS Once I sat in the 23.5 TK at the factory with the two sofas and panoramic windows, I knew I was home.
Water Heater AC Heating Element
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66604
Wow!  What a great idea. Is there such a thing as an aftermarket hydronic hot water heating unit for RV's  that may be tied into an engine heat exchanger?  Where is the web site for it?  I want one. 8^) Gary G.
Deja Blue's Driver

"PS If you really want to upset them, ask for a gas/AC/engine heat exchanger combo. Hot water when you travel; hot water when you arrive." W.
[Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Inst
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66611
Wow!  What a great idea. Is there such a thing as an aftermarket hydronic hot water heating unit for RV's  that may be tied into an engine heat exchanger?  Where is the web site for it?  I want one. 8^) Gary G. Deja Blue's Driver

"PS If you really want to upset them, ask for a gas/AC/engine heat exchanger combo. Hot water when you travel; hot water when you arrive." W.

8

Hi Gary

Well, not that I know of for RV's. They've been in marine use for decades that I know of (I had one), and it's an unbelieveable luxury to have hot running water in a remote anchorage at the end of a cold wet day on deck. Especially when before all you had was a stove and a tea kettle.

But this is RV'ing, and the only options that I have found to be commercially available (disregarding any custom one-off designs) are straight gas or gas/AC electric.

And as for LD adding this to their current option list, I'm not expecting such a logical customer-beneficial change to be offered any time soon.

Will
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66613
"...the only options that I have found to be commercially available (disregarding any custom one-off designs) are straight gas or gas/AC electric.

Quote
And as for LD adding this to their current option list, I'm not expecting such a logical customer-beneficial change to be offered any time soon. "

Will
Will and others
 I'll join this thread with my experience. Since I had an LP/Electric water heater in my SOB I know the advantages. Afterall, if you're in an RV park where you are already paying for electricity, why would you want to expend you LP which you have also already paid for.
 So, when it came time to order Lazy Bones (30'IB) I asked Steve Newton if he could install the LP/AC type heater. I'd already done my homework and learned that the two models are exactly the same physical size. Steve's emphatic response to my request was "NO". End of story, end of discussion.
 And so now I can annoy my neighbors by having my water heater kick in and run throughout the night or I can be inconvenienced by having to turn it off before I go to bed and then relight it again in the morning.

So where's the logic in that?

Steve S.
Lazy Bones
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66622
Quote


"...the only options that I have found to be commercially available (disregarding any custom one-off designs) are straight gas or gas/AC electric.

And as for LD adding this to their current option list, I'm not expecting such a logical customer-beneficial change to be offered any time soon. "

Will

Will and others
 I'll join this thread with my experience. Since I had an LP/Electric water heater in my SOB I know the advantages. Afterall, if you're in an RV park where you are already paying for electricity, why would you want to expend you LP which you have also already paid for.
 So, when it came time to order Lazy Bones (30'IB) I asked Steve Newton if he could install the LP/AC type heater. I'd already done my homework and learned that the two models are exactly the same physical size. Steve's emphatic response to my request was "NO". End of story, end of discussion.
 And so now I can annoy my neighbors by having my water heater kick in and run throughout the night or I can be inconvenienced by having to turn it off before I go to bed and then relight it again in the morning.

So where's the logic in that?

Steve S. Lazy Bones


Thanks for that Steve.
 What I get from your experience is that it doesn't seem to matter if something has been on the market for years, is reliable, would be beneficial to the customer, and would not require any significant re-engineering; if they don't wanna do it, you ain't gonna get it. If I'm missing something here, I'll stand corrected, but their refusal seems even more baffling considering that the unit in question was from the same manufacturer, the same size, and apparently just additionally needed to be wired into the AC circuit. Incredible.

My own take on LD options: there are factory options (on the list), and there are "stealth options" (not on the list, but doable), and then there are no options at all. Guess which category is the largest.

Will
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66636
"If you really want to upset them, ask for a gas/AC/engine heat exchanger combo. Hot water when you travel; hot water when you arrive."
 A couple of years ago I had Camping World replace my standard Atwood water heater.
Then last fall while Mike Sylvester and I were poking around behind it, he pointed out, to my astonishment, that it had a heat exchanger pipe welded to the back of the tank.
Nothing very sophisticated, just a straight length of 1" aluminum pipe heliarced to the aluminum tank, with ends protruding through the foam insulation jacket. I hadn't asked for this feature or even known it exsted, so I was completely surprised to find it there. I guess Camping World just installed what they happened to have in stock.
 Mike pointed out that this could be hooked up to the engine's cooling system to provide "free" hot water after a day of driving (although it wouldn't help with my morning shower).
A more intriguing possibility: hook up a hydronic baseboard heater and circulator pump to it and use the *water heater* as a heat source to heat the coach. (This has actually been done by a few RVer/tinkerers.)
 I toyed with this idea for awhile--it would be much more efficient than the standard Suburban furnace, and much quieter too. But then the furnace died, I replaced it with a catalytic heater (for a total of two cat heaters, one front, one rear), and I've been so happy with that arrangement that the idea of a hydronic heating system has been shelved.
 The main point of this message is to let you know that Atwood makes a water heater with a heat exchanger, and it can be installed in place of a standard Atwood water heater with no modifications. They can't be all that hard to get if Camping World had 'em in stock. ;-) So if you want to experiment with this stuff, there is a way.

Andy Baird

Percha Dam State Park, NM
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66637
"Afterall, if you're in an RV park where you are already paying for electricity, why would you want to expend you LP which you have also already paid for."
 True, if electricity is included in your camping fee. But all of the commercial parks I've stayed in this year, and several of the state parks as well, have charged separately for electricity by the kilowatt-hour. In that situation--which I expect to become more and more common as energy prices rise--an electric water heater can drive up your bill quite rapidly. You then have to ask yourself whether it's costing you more to heat water with electricity or propane.
 Unfortunately, I've never been able to come up with a practical way to separate out the propane consumption of a single device like a water heater or fridge in order to make this comparison. (What we need is a Link-10 for propane! ;-)
 So I don't have any concrete answers. I just want to point out that in an increasing number of campgrounds, electricity is no longer "free"...so connecting a power-hungry device like a water heater to your electric hookup is no longer a no-brainer.

Andy Baird

Percha Dam State Park, NM
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66643
First of all Steve, the Lazy Daze IS my home. We are fulltimers.  It does not seem inconvenient to me to turn on the water heater when I decide I want hot water.  They go together in my mind.  Second, Andy is right that in more and more places the electric is metered and you are paying for it.  Even if it is not metered, you are paying for everyone's average use which is why I would prefer a lower rate and an electric meter.  Third, it is much more efficient to heat water with gas than with electricity and, perhaps because we are fulltimers, we are more in touch with the energy we use and I prefer to do it the most efficient way.  I'm not so broke yet that I think sticking it to a campground that doesn't meter electricity to save myself a few pennies worth of propane is the way I want to go.  I just want to do the job using the least energy as possible and that means turning on and off the water heater and using propane.  YMMV and probably does.

-- Jonna in Tortuga, 2001 Teal RB Find us MAPhttp://map.datastormusers.com/user2.cfm?user=1013> Follow the BLOG herehttp://www.baddog.com/blog/blog.html>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66654
"Unfortunately, I've never been able to come up with a practical way to separate out the propane consumption of a single device like a water heater or fridge in order to make this comparison. (What we need is a Link-10 for propane!"

Andy
 I guess you could install a recording flow meter on the propane line that supplies the water heater but there is an easy way to estimate you propane consumption, all you need is a watch

A gallon of propane contains about 92,000 BTUs of energy.
A six gallon Atwood water heater uses 8800 BTUs per hour.
See
http://www.atwoodmobile.com/viewPDF.cfm?path=pdf/waterheater.pdf>
 Running the water heater for a half hour a day (our average) would use 4400 BTUs. That works out to a gallon of propane lasting for about 21 days.
I last paid about three dollars a gallon for propane. Our water heater propane consumption calcs out at 14 cents a day.
Determine your average daily water heater run time and do the math.

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66660
Quote
.... there is an easy way to estimate you propane consumption, all you need is a watch

... Our water heater propane consumption calcs out at 14 cents a day.
Determine your average daily water heater run time and do the math.

Larry
Thanks for "doing the math," Larry, since I'd been following this discussion and was very puzzled by what the advantages of an electric system might be.
I, too, am one of those as-needed users, usually once or twice a day for 10 minutes.  (It has always bothered me to leave the stick-house water heater turned on 24/7; I installed an on-demand gas-fired system in my previous home.)
 I'll add this thought: Having the hot water heater ON for 30 minutes is not exactly the same as RUNNING it for 30 minutes, especially if they're consecutive (vs 10 min 3 times a day) since the heater has a thermostat and the propane won't be in use once the water gets up to temp, which in my experience is less than 10 minutes.
 Besides, I like the nice round number of 10 cents per day, which gives us  a 600-camping-day payoff period if the electric feature adds $60 to the installation cost  and electricity is free.
 Now, who's going to do the math of figuring out what it costs to run it on paid electric?  And 24/7? ;-)

Joanne in Boston 1994 teal TK NE-44
Re: Water Heater AC Heating Element Installation
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66664
"A gallon of propane contains about 92,000 BTUs of energy.
A six gallon Atwood water heater uses 8800 BTUs per hour.
Running the water heater for a half hour a day (our average) would use 4400 BTUs.
That works out to a gallon of propane lasting for about 21 days.
I last paid about three dollars a gallon for propane. Our water heater propane consumption calcs out at 14 cents a day."
 Thanks for the information, Larry! So my fifteen minutes of water heater use a day are costing me seven cents a day. It'd take a long time to pay for a $60 Hott Rodd at that rate, even if and if electricity were free everywhere. (And of cours eif I weren't  fulltiming, it'd take even longer.)
 But as I mentioned, in many places electricity isn't free. I paid an average of 14 cents per kilowatt hour at the southwestern campgrounds I stayed in this past winter. If I assume the water heater's insulation is so good that an electric heating element will only draw current 10% of the time (which is probably optimistic), then leaving it on all the time (which is the only option, since there's no on/off switch) would consume 2.4 kWh a day. At 14 cents per kWh, that's about 33 cents a day.
 In short, even if I were to receive a Hott Rodd as a gift (or if this rig had come with an electric/gas water heater), heating water with electricity would cost me more than twice what I'm paying to do the job with propane.

Andy Baird

Percha Dam State Park, NM
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Water Heater
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66678
"This saves water but wonder if it is hard on the water heater to not let it do the full cycle and shut itself off."
 Not at all. Shutting off the water heater manually is functionally no different from letting the thermostat shut it off.

Andy Baird

Percha Dam State Park, NM
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Water Heater
Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66686
Quote
Not at all. Shutting off the water heater manually is functionally
no different from letting the

Quote
thermostat shut it off.
Not sure if this is entirely true. Our water heater has a manually lit pilot, and we often set it to 'pilot only', which eventually gets the water hot enough for most uses other than a succession of showers - without having to turn the gas to full 'on'. In colder weather, we usually set it to 'on' and let it run a full cycle before setting it back to pilot.

However, in very cold weather, I have had the pilot go out ater a period if I aborted the 'on' cycle while the tank water was still cold. I believe it was a case of competing thermal radiation between the cold tank and the pilot, with the thermocouple uncertainly in-between. Could be the thermocouple is not ideally positioned, though, or a small breeze slewed the odds.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Water Heater
Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 66693
"Our water heater has a manually lit pilot...in very cold weather, I have had the pilot go out after a period if I aborted the 'on' cycle while the tank water was still cold."
 In the scenario we were discussing, though--running the water heater for 15 minutes until the water is good and hot--that shouldn't be a problem, right?
 In any case, it's been a long time since LD installed water heaters with pilot lights, so fortunately, not many owners would run into the situation you descrbed. My '85 came with a DSI (direct spark ignition) water heater that as far as I know was the original unit, so it's been at least twenty years. Anybody know when LD made the changeover? It isn't mentioned in the "Changes" list in our Files area.

Andy Baird

Percha Dam State Park, NM
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Water Heater
Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 99253
This week I de-wintereized our 1987 22FL.  We plan to drive to Spokane this weekend and next weekend use it for a motorcycle rally.  For some reason I can not get the water heater to stay on.  When I turn it on from inside the coach, I can hear the water heater turn on for about two to three minutes and then it turns off and the stale red light stays lit.  I tried turning on the stove's burner for several minutes and the water heater still will not stay on.

We are really hoping to use the LD this weekend.  Its a three day weekend for us.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks:

Rob, Maria, and Selah (now 10 mo. old)