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Topic: Extreme cold-weather boondocking (Read 8 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64445
So... they were found.  That's great.  There were a lot of Rvers very worried about them.  I'll have to tell the other group I'm on.
Thanks for the info! Evelyn

Andy Baird wrote:
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64446
That story is well known over national news.
 When I read it, I wondered if a CB would have helped, like the one I have in my Lazy Daze.
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64447
Quote
That story is well known over national news.
 When I read it, I wondered if a CB would have helped, like the one I have in my Lazy Daze.
The CB, as I understand it, is mostly line-of-sight.  Since there was no other traffic on the road they were on, they probably would not have been able to contact other vehicles.  I don't know whether they could contact passing aircraft with a CB, or not.  I'll bet someone in this group knows, though.
 How about carrying a flare gun, if traveling in remote areas with the chance of heavy snow?  I suppose you could signal passing aircraft with a flare, but I'd be concerned about starting a forest fire.

All you pilot-type LDers, isn't there some kind of finder device an RVer could carry to allow them to be found in a similar situation?

My solution would be to never travel in an area that might have surprise heavy snow storms!  I've lived in northern Ohio, the Rochester, NY area, and New England long enough to choose to avoid snow if possible.  Winter in southeast Texas looks almost tropical in comparison.  I'm now a weather wimp!

Sharon N.
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64449
For it to be LoS it would have to be up in the microwave bands.  I don't know whet the CB freq bands are, but I don't think they're in the m.wave bands (G.Hz).  But, it would have a very hard time getting out of canyons.  I'm not sure of the terrain they were in, but I'd bet it had canyons.  Most RV's have CB's, don't they?  It seems that every RVer I speak w/ does have one.
Flare guns are fairly expensive.  I agree about never traveling where there is a chance of snow!   brrrrrrr!!  I'm a super weather wimp. After a few generations in SoCal.... the saying that blood is thicker than water, no longer holds true!  My blood is soooo thin! Evelyn

Sharon N. wrote:
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64451
CB was probably useless for them.  CB is in the 11 meter band and signals travel readily but CB users are legally below 5 watts in output.  However CB radiow are limited to short distances because of the power limit - usually a maximum of about 10 miles, 15 on a good haul,  depending on the terrain. Also the antenna on an RV is NOT made for optimum output of signal.   Of course, if you are lucky, you might get some "skip" but that isn't dependable, just an exciting moment or 2.

Sue in chilly Iowa

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2ยข/min or less.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Painted seam at rear of Lazy Daze
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64452
On the rear end of the Lazy Daze there is a painted seam that goes all the way around the coach on the outside between the body panel and the end cap.

I have seen one of these where that seam was cracked all the way around.  Is that normal?
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64465
Quote
My solution would be to never travel in an area that might have surprise heavy snow storms!

 It's not just that they were traveling in an area that had a surprise snow storm...they were apparently taking back roads (a really bad idea in the winter in the mountains) and their RV slid off the road into a snow bank from which they couldn't extricate themselves.
 According to the father-in-law's story, they were very comfortable...they had plenty of water, fuel, etc.  They were even watching TV, and it wasn't until they heard that the search had been called off that the elder couple decided to walk out to find help.

Linda Hylton

2004 Red 23.5' TK
See where we are: http://map.datastormusers.com/user3.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64466
Quote
After 17 days of being lost, their situation was desperate,

 Could be, but that's not the story the father-in-law told.  According to him, they were quite comfortable, having an abundant supply of freeze-dried food, water (from the snow), and fuel.

Linda Hylton

2004 Red 23.5' TK
See where we are: http://map.datastormusers.com/user3.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64469
One might also speculate that with a cell phone amplifier and external antenna,  they *might* have been able to make contact...but a more reliable solution comes to mind.
 The radio amateurs in this group have been too tactful to say this, so I (a non-ham) will: the situation we're talking about is one where a ham would almost certainly have been able to make contact one way or another, because ham radios are not power-limited the way CB, FRS and GMRS radios are, and they are not restricted to line-of-sight frequencies.
 I have a friend who has made contacts in Australia with a homebuilt amateur radio that fits in an Altoids tin. It's just a question of picking the right frequency band and waiting till conditions are good (usually late at night). And you don't have to build your own radio. A good multiband amateur radio transceiver doesn't cost much more than a good CB, but has many times the power and versatility.
 The key point is this: a ham can make a contact with another ham anywhere in the world on whatever frequency is usable, and expect a distress message to be relayed from ham to ham until it reaches the proper local authorities. If one has a GPS receiver, the exact location can be included. (I note that the authorities in this case had considerable trouble sighting the RV from the air. Exact lat/long coordinates would have eliminated this problem.)
 Again, I'm not a ham myself...but the advantages of amateur radio in this kind of emergency situation are obvious. If any of these six people had been a ham, they would have been rescured within a couple of days instead of a couple of weeks...and the extremely risky hike-out attempt would have been unnecessary. (Nobody's commented on that, but "go for help" attempts of this sort, especially in freezing/mountainous conditions, very often lead to the deaths of the hikers.)

Andy Baird
Benson, AZ
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64479
--- In lifewithalazydazerv@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Baird" wrote
 
Quote
The radio amateurs in this group have been too tactful to say this,
so I (a non-ham) will:
 
Quote
the situation we're talking about is one where a ham would almost
certainly have been
 
Quote
able to make contact one way or another, because ham radios are not
power-limited the
 
Quote
way CB, FRS and GMRS radios are, and they are not restricted to
line-of-sight frequencies.

Andy,

There is another option that the pilots and sailors have been too tactful to say which is that using an EPIRB or Emergency Position Indicationg Radio Beacon would have worked very well.  They can be manually activated and an emergency beacon goes out that Pilots and Civil Airpatrol track back to its source to find you.  If registered it even tells them who you are.

Terry R
23.5TK
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64496
Quote from: n0iba"
>

The gizmo that would have changed this from an emergency to an inconveniance is the personal locator beacon. These were made legal for normal uses that don't involve ships and planes by a long-long-overdue decision by the FCC in 2003.
 Backpackers, river runners and others who go into areas that are out of cell phone coverage have been buying and renting them since.
 The negatives about them are expense - $500 - $800 being typical - and the limited intent of their design and nature.

REI says: " This Personal Locator Beacon should only be used in situations of grave and imminent danger, and only as a last resort when all means of self-rescue have been exhausted."
 The fear that kept these extremely valuable devices from more general use was that people would not follow this limitation, and that more widespread use would result in many more "accidental" activations.
It seems that these fears were largely misplaced, AFAIK.
 A web search for "personal locator beacon" will uncover many types and models - the quote is from REI.com's listing of the ACR Electronics Terrafix 406GPS I model which is fairly typical and well-regarded.
It is about the size of a pack of king-sized cigarettes and weighs less than a pound.

Oregon has many thousands of miles of back roads and logging roads that are mostly unused, and its not unusual for people to be lost at any time of the year. Taking a 35 foot motorhome on  logging roads over the coast range in the winter is......

I haven't needed or bought a GPS unit for a motorhome yet, so I'm unclear as to where they'd fit into this picture. The beacon's use GPS satellites to locate the signal, but other systems are also involved - maybe someone here can expand on this explanation if there's interest.

Rick Lewis KWTB
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64499
"I haven't needed or bought a GPS unit for a motorhome yet, so I'm unclear as to where they'd fit into this picture."
 Simple. If you can make a voice contact (via CB, cell phone, ham radio, FRS or GMRS), giving your precise GPS latitude and longitude coordinates means that rescuers know where you are to within ten feet. With that accuracy, you WILL be rescued in the minimum time--no two ways about it. It won't even matter whether you can be seen from the air.
(This RV, remember, was not visible from the air.)
 Also, in the situation described, the family could have used a good mapping GPS to determine exactly where the closest human habitation was, so that when they launched their "hike out" attempt they would have known exactly which way to go to minimize their travel distance. The GPS would have led them there, eliminating the all-too-common and frequently fatal scenario of hiking in circles in snowy terrain.
 It all boils down to this: if you don't know where you are, then by definition you're lost.
With a GPS, you always know exactly where you are, give or take a few feet. In an emergency, that knowledge is the difference between having rescuers come straight to you...and having them fly search grids for a couple of days, then give up, as happened in this case.
 As for the TerraFix 406 Personal Locator Beacon, it must be tethered to a separate GPS in order to send your precise location (without which it's all but useless in my humble opinion)...so in addition to paying $600 for the PLB, you'll have to buy a $100-$150 GPS anyway. That being the case, why not just buy the GPS and a good two-way radio or radios?
 That's what I've done. I carry a good mapping GPS (StreetPilot 2610) plus a handheld GPS, and a CB radio with roof antenna, a CB walkie talkie, a pair of FRS walkie talkies, and a 3 watt cell phone amplifier with roof-mounted Wilson antenna.
 If you have plenty of money and no interest in learning to use a radio, a PLB is a simple "push one button" solution. But it won't let you talk to rescuers to inform them about injuries or needed supplies. It won't help you navigate in ordinary circumstances. It's a very, very expensive one-trick pony. As an RVer, I always look for things that can do more than one job. :-) Just my two cents' worth.

Andy Baird
Benson, AZ
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64501
Quote

That's what I've done. I carry a good mapping GPS (StreetPilot
2610) plus a handheld GPS,
 
Quote
and a CB radio with roof antenna, a CB walkie talkie, a pair of
FRS walkie talkies, and a 3

Quote
watt cell phone amplifier with roof-mounted Wilson antenna.

If you have plenty of money and no interest in learning to use a
radio, a PLB is a simple
 
Quote
"push one button" solution. But it won't let you talk to rescuers
to inform them about

Quote
injuries or needed supplies. It won't help you navigate in
ordinary circumstances. It's a
 
Quote
very, very expensive one-trick pony. As an RVer, I always look for
things that can do more

Quote
than one job. :-) Just my two cents' worth.

Andy Baird Benson, AZ
Well, not exactly. True, it is a "one trick pony", but it's a good pony!! The ACR Aquafix (the Terrafix and Aerofix are all the same unit, just case color differs) model I have cost $500 and includes a built-in GPS. You push *two* buttons to activate it. The 406 Mhz signal goes to SARSAT COPAS sattelites and your position, within a few feet, can be on search and rescue's screen within minutes (though 1/2 hour might be more typical).

Again, this is a one trick pony, but you can carry it with you when hiking, boating, RVing or any sport or activity that even remotely might have you in harm's way. It also works anywhere in the world! I fly and soar in the vast Nevada desert where a recent search for another aircraft came upon a plane that crashed in 1964. If ever needed, I'll be darn glad I have my $500 "one trick pony".

bumper
bumper
"Yonder" '05 MB
"WLDBLU" glider trailer
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64502
Quote
"I haven't needed or bought a GPS unit for a motorhome yet, so I'm
unclear as to where

Quote
they'd fit into this picture."

Simple. If you can make a voice contact (via CB, cell phone, ham
radio, FRS or GMRS),
 
Quote
giving your precise GPS latitude and longitude coordinates means
that rescuers know
 
Quote
where you are to within ten feet. With that accuracy, you WILL be
rescued in the minimum
 
Quote
time--no two ways about it. It won't even matter whether you can
be seen from the air.

Quote
(This RV, remember, was not visible from the air.)

Also, in the situation described, the family could have used a
good mapping GPS to
 
Quote
determine exactly where the closest human habitation was, so that
when they launched
 
Quote
their "hike out" attempt they would have known exactly which way
to go to minimize their
 
Quote
travel distance. The GPS would have led them there, eliminating
the all-too-common and
 
Quote
frequently fatal scenario of hiking in circles in snowy terrain.

It all boils down to this: if you don't know where you are, then
by definition you're lost.
 
Quote
With a GPS, you always know exactly where you are, give or take a
few feet. In an

Quote
emergency, that knowledge is the difference between having
rescuers come straight to
 
Quote
you...and having them fly search grids for a couple of days, then
give up, as happened in

Quote
this case.

As for the TerraFix 406 Personal Locator Beacon, it must be
tethered to a separate GPS in
 
Quote
order to send your precise location (without which it's all but
useless in my humble
 
Quote
opinion)...so in addition to paying $600 for the PLB, you'll have
to buy a $100-$150 GPS
 
Quote
anyway. That being the case, why not just buy the GPS and a good
two-way radio or

Quote
radios?

That's what I've done. I carry a good mapping GPS (StreetPilot
2610) plus a handheld GPS,
 
Quote
and a CB radio with roof antenna, a CB walkie talkie, a pair of
FRS walkie talkies, and a 3

Quote
watt cell phone amplifier with roof-mounted Wilson antenna.

If you have plenty of money and no interest in learning to use a
radio, a PLB is a simple
 
Quote
"push one button" solution. But it won't let you talk to rescuers
to inform them about

Quote
injuries or needed supplies. It won't help you navigate in
ordinary circumstances. It's a
 
Quote
very, very expensive one-trick pony. As an RVer, I always look for
things that can do more

Quote
than one job. :-) Just my two cents' worth.

Andy Baird Benson, AZ
The personal locator beacons are a spin-off of the older EPIRB technology that's been used for years by boats and airplanes. It functions through satelites so is not affected by terrain and distance (at least much less so than radio).

As such, I think they have an important, if limited, role. For back country wanderers of various types they are a very portable and easy to use device for real emergencies. The model I listed and most others are available with internal gps functions, and (I think) be used as a personal gps unit as well as as PLB functions.
 They're certainly much less generally useful than radios,  dedicated gps's, mapping units etc. For most people some combination those are probably a better choice.
 Others mighht find them invaluable, and it sure would have been nice for the stranded motorhomers.

Rick Lewis Portland, Oregon
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64503
This has been a very interesting exchange of information, ideas, etc.
One thought just occurred to me, though.  If they had a cell phone with them, the battery was charged (or it was plugged into power), it was turned on, it was GPS enabled, and the GPS feature turned on, wouldn't (in theory) the emergency authorities have been able to track their location if they were reported missing?

Sharon N.
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64510
At 10:24 AM 3/23/2006, you wrote:

Quote
Could be, but that's not the story the father-in-law told.  According to him, they were quite comfortable, having an abundant supply of freeze-dried food, water (from the snow), and fuel.
I don't know about anyone else, but 17 days is way past my "comfort zone" as a missing person. Regardless of the state of their supplies, it seems obvious that a rescue wasn't going to just happen, and that they could literally be stuck there forever if they didn't do something. After reading/listening to the CNN story, it seems that they waited over two weeks before the parents left to try to find help. No mention was made of anything done at the site to attract the attention of rescuers. (BTW, I agree with Andy that attempting to walk out to find help under the circumstances was extremely risky and probably not something I would do. Having lived in the boonies in high-altitude snow country, I am familiar with the almost routine stories of deaths caused by heroic but misguided attempts to go for help.)

Not knowing anything about the various electronic devices mentioned in this thread, I think I would have tried some more primitive attention-getting options. Maybe a signal fire, if it seemed safe.
But definitely rigging something on the RV roof to make it visible from the air. Bright-colored clothing or blankets, spelling out HELP with brush or small branches cut from trees (a can of paint would have been a godsend), etc.

There was an ocean of snow to melt and boil for drinking water, and apparently a large supply of freeze-dried food, but what about fuel? Six people, 17 days, seems like the propane would have been perilously low even if it was never used to heat the RV.

Amazing story, that's for sure.

Sonsie
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64513
Quote
This has been a very interesting exchange of information, ideas, etc.
One thought just occurred to me, though.  If they had a cell phone with them, the battery was charged (or it was plugged into power), it was turned on, it was GPS enabled, and the GPS feature turned on, wouldn't (in theory) the emergency authorities have been able to track their location if they were reported missing?

 I don't really know much about GPS technology in cell phones, but don't you actually have to be talking to someone on the phone for them to trace you?
 At any rate, according to reports, they did have a cell phone with them, but I doubt very much that they had a signal where they were.

Linda Hylton

2004 Red 23.5' TK
See where we are: http://map.datastormusers.com/user3.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
[Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64516
Amazing story, that's for sure.

Sonsie

 IMHO, this was a potentially deadly situation that resulted from some incredibly bad decisions. Our mountains and back country are not very forgiving. Here is a link to a story in the local Ashland, Oregon newspaper:
 http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/0324/local/stories/06local.htm 
Will
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64526
"omofi170"  wrote: IMHO, this was a potentially deadly situation that resulted from some incredibly bad decisions. Our mountains and back country are not very forgiving. Here is a link to a story in the local Ashland, Oregon newspaper:
 http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/0324/local/stories/06local.ht m
--- Agreed. I am fairly familiar with this area, and even the Agness- Galice Road) which was apparently what they thought they were on, at least at first) is a very difficult passage for a large vehicle under the best of weather and conditions.  (Part of this road is also "officially" closed during the snow season.) The other "roads" in this area are logging roads and/or "goat tracks". While I'm glad that the group survived, the results of this complete absence of common sense could so easily have been tragic.

Joan
2003 TK has a new home
[Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64527
Not to mention that pretty much any of: not taking a back road; having equipment to extract the RV; having better radio or cell communications; having a distress beacon; having and using a GPS to leave ASAP would have kept them off of national TV.

And staying off of national TV would have probably saved them from having Arizona issue arrest warrants for two of them for meth and related charges.  Now we know how they could afford an RV.  :)
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64528
Quote
And staying off of national TV would have probably saved them from having Arizona issue arrest warrants for two of them for meth and related charges.  Now we know how they could afford an RV.  :)

 Story here: http://tinyurl.com/mtcv6

Linda Hylton

2004 Red 23.5' TK
See where we are: http://map.datastormusers.com/user3.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
Re: Extreme cold-weather boondocking
Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 64544
Quote
The personal locator beacons are a spin-off of the older EPIRB technology that's been used for years by boats and airplanes. It functions through satelites so is not affected by terrain and distance (at least much less so than radio).

Rick Lewis Portland, Oregon
All the older emergency locator beacons (ELTs as used on aircraft) and any beacon using 121.5 Mhz, are on their last legs. They are scheduled to go to "no response" status in about 2 years. The only locator beacons that SARSAT and COPAS will initiate emergency response to, will be the 406 Mhz beacons. These will still have a low power 121.5 Mhz transmitter, but it's function is just to allow search and rescue to "home in" on the beacon once they get close.

With GPS built-in, S&R will already have the beacon's location to within a few feet. Besides portability and waterproofness (is that a word?), the PLB's work anywhere in the world and send discreet ID info so search and rescue will have the owner's emergency contact info etc.

all the best,

bumper
bumper
"Yonder" '05 MB
"WLDBLU" glider trailer