Lithium Battery Question December 31, 2024, 09:14:11 pm I'm finally in process of converting from 2 Costco 8 year old GC batteries to Litime lithium. I ordered a single 100 AH with Bluetooth. I'm hoping the bluetooth will give me a good idea of the condition of the battery. Two questions. Although I only boondock, mostly at music festivals, my usage is very light. I seldom run the existing batteries below about 80 percent and use 200 Watts of solar to bring them back up, usually to 100 percent. Do you think 1 100 AH lithium will meet my needs? If I decide to add a second, should it also be bluetooth or will the one with bluetooth give me a reading of the whole system? Appreciate any thoughts.
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #1 – December 31, 2024, 11:08:10 pm What battery did you get............ Jody
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #2 – January 01, 2025, 12:21:40 am Li Time doesn't seem to talk model numbers, but it is called "12V 100Ah Group 24 Bluetooth LiFePO4 Lithium Deep Cycle Battery" I went with the group 24 size so it would fit in my existing battery box. Cost including tax was just about $200. I decided to get it now not knowing what the new year might bring to the cost of Chinese products.
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #3 – January 01, 2025, 04:19:44 am Quote from: Rich Gort - December 31, 2024, 09:14:11 pmI'm finally in process of converting from 2 Costco 8 year old GC batteries to Litime lithium. I ordered a single 100 AH with Bluetooth. I'm hoping the bluetooth will give me a good idea of the condition of the battery. Two questions. Although I only boondock, mostly at music festivals, my usage is very light. I seldom run the existing batteries below about 80 percent and use 200 Watts of solar to bring them back up, usually to 100 percent. Do you think 1 100 AH lithium will meet my needs? If I decide to add a second, should it also be bluetooth or will the one with bluetooth give me a reading of the whole system? Appreciate any thoughts.No. 100AH is not enough. 100AH of lithium may duplicate 205AH of lead acid but we are using more and more power with cell phones, iPads, computers, and Starlink. Look to the future. Just an opinion. The lithium batteries should be installed inside the heated area of the coach. Another opinion.You should install a battery monitor and a lithium charger or converter if you use the generator. Wouldn’t hurt to have a lithium compatible solar charger but you can do without that if you have a battery monitor. An opinion.With your low power needs you might consider keeping the present batteries and adding a Bluetti or Eco Flow solar generator for your lithium battery. Just an opinion.
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #4 – January 01, 2025, 02:03:45 pm QuoteThe lithium batteries should be installed inside the heated area of the coachIf Rich's LiTime is similar to mine, it protects itself by shutting down charging when the ambient temperature is 32 degrees. I have three of them in the old battery compartment and a fourth in the compartment just below. I agree that a second 100 amp battery would be a better solution. Rich, it sounds like you don't want to go all the way but a good battery monitor would provide you all the info you need and you really should upgrade your converter so the generator will charge the lithium batteries properly. jor 1 Likes
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #5 – January 01, 2025, 02:31:28 pm While I prefer having extra battery capacity, a single Li Time series 24 will have close to the same capacity as your old lead-acid batteries. The good news is you can add another battery if the single battery isn't enough.Most recent solar controllers can be adjusted for lithium.Many older converters will adequately charge lithium, changing to a dedicated lithium charger isn't always necessary. The Bluetooth readout will show if the battery is being fully charged, and the BMS controls prevent overcharging and excessive discharging. Our 20-year-old Progressive Dynamics 70-amp charger does a great job of charging the three lithium batteries quickly, it is on Battle Born's list of acceptable chargers.If possible seal and insulate the battery compartment's exterior opening and install vents in the battery compartment to the interior to help maintain the battery's temperature. Our LD's battery compartment is sealed this way and the battery stays within 5 degrees of the interior's temperature, year-round.Larry
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #6 – January 01, 2025, 02:47:04 pm "Do you think 1 100 AH lithium will meet my needs?"That's unlikely. Lithium is good, but it's not miraculous. I understand your reasoning--that you seldom bring your present batteries below 80%--but "seldom" is not the same as "never." Right now you have an ample safety margin. But suppose, for example, that there's a cold snap and you have to run your furnace all night for several nights in a row. With 100 Ah, you'd have no safety margin."If I decide to add a second, should it also be bluetooth or will the one with bluetooth give me a reading of the whole system?"You should get exactly the same battery as the one you just bought--with Bluetooth. You want to be able to see each individual battery's state of charge, cell balances, and so on. They may not be the same.And it's not a great idea to depend upon your batteries' internal diagnostics to assess your whole electrical system. As HBN7HJ pointed out, if you really want to know what's going on with your electrical system (and if you're only boondocking, you definitely do!), you need a battery monitor such as Victron's BMV-712 or SmartShunt. 1 Likes
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #7 – January 01, 2025, 03:31:27 pm A battery monitor is one of the first additions any boondocker or dry camper should install. It's a must-have.Mixing batteries has always been a no-no but I'm not sure about lithium. The additional power needed for a Star Link exceeded the capacity of our LD's the two 100-amp/hour Battle Born batteries during cloudy periods. Not wanting to pay over $900 for an extra Battle Born battery, I bought a single Li Time Series 24 100-amp/hour battery for $230 and added it to the battery pack. None of the the batteries have Bluetooth so they are monitored with the battery monitor and by measuring the amperage in and outflow of the three individual batteries with a clamp-on ammeter. When charging or discharging at high rates, all three batteries have very close to the same amperage flow rates. Not too surprising since the chemistry is the same and the batteries' impedances are similar.Since each battery has its own BMS, each battery is protected from excessive overcharging or discharging, each battery appears to be independent and protected from damage. Was it the correct thing to do? Time will tell, after a year, so far everything appears to be fine .Larry 2 Likes
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #8 – January 02, 2025, 12:36:39 pm "Since each battery has its own BMS, each battery is protected from excessive overcharging or discharging, each battery appears to be independent and protected from damage."Good point, Larry. As long as you're measuring similar individual charge and discharge rates via your clamp-on ammeter, your setup is probably fine. And mixing lithium batteries may be less of a no-no than mixing lead-acid batteries.Li Time does say, "To connect in series-parallel, batteries must be identical (same brand, type, voltage, capacity, and BMS), and purchased within one month." However, my hunch is that that warning is because of the series connection (e.g., a 24 V system), which we're not doing. Varying internal resistances would be a problem with a series configuration, but not so much with our parallel setups.I do like having Bluetooth in each battery, because it makes it easy to check cell balances--something you can't do from outside the battery--as well as internal temperatures, number of cycles, and other things. But you're obviously not going to replace your existing Battle Borns just to get that feature, as long as they continue to work.
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #9 – January 02, 2025, 01:53:38 pm First of all, thanks for the responses and advice. After giving it more thought, I think I will give it a try with the one 100 AH battery. With my limited usage, (charging phones and pads, LED lights for an hour or so each night, water pump and propane refrigerator) I think it will do the job. Most of the days I camp are sunny (summers here in the PNW do have sunny days) and If I ever run the heat, it is just for a short while to take the chill off in the morning and I can check the battery via the bluetooth before I decide to run it. While I understand the usefulness of a battery monitor, had one in my LD and 5th wheel, I'm hoping the bluetooth will give me all the info I need, looks like it will. I won't be changing out my converter, I'll be relying on my solar to bring it up to full charge. My solar controller has an adjustment for Li battery charging voltage. My research seems to indicate I should set it at 14.6 V. Does that agree with your thinking? Thanks again for the advice.
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #10 – January 02, 2025, 02:34:50 pm Hi Rich; That 14.6 volts is what I have my SB3000i (Blue Sky Energy) set for. That has worked well for the past two years. RonB
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #11 – January 02, 2025, 02:50:23 pm Is the Blue Sky "user settable"?
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #12 – January 02, 2025, 03:28:13 pm Quote from: HiLola - January 02, 2025, 02:50:23 pmIs the Blue Sky "user settable"?Yes.Read the owner's manual on how to adjust it. Larry 1 Likes
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #13 – January 05, 2025, 11:23:26 pm Well I have 800 amh of lithium and 1300 watts of solar and that works for me but I’m running a 12v fridge and 12v air
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #14 – January 06, 2025, 02:49:06 am With a lot of solar, the controller has to be able to handle the power involved. The R3000i is good up to 30 Amps (13vdc) It can take slightly more on an infrequent basis. I'm only running 450 Watts of panels, and it is more than sufficient to keep my 400 AH of LiF batteries charged. I don't try to run any air conditioner, electric heaters or 'hot air' cookers. Someday If I switch to a 12volt refrigerator/freezer, I might want to upgrade to more batteries and more solar. The R3000i is already installed in many Lazy Dazes, and it can be reprogrammed, by pushing a few buttons, to be more compatible with Lithium house batteries. RonB 1 Likes
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #15 – January 08, 2025, 03:22:20 pm These same items come up in my pursuit of a travel trailer. The lack of knowledge on lithium batteries and associated systems is prevalent. Below is what a dealer sent me regarding battery shunts. “The lithium batteries we suggest have blue tooth capability which tells you the battery state of charge, temperature and current flow directly to your phone. This eliminates the need for a shunt to measure the batteries (which never worked that well anyway) which eliminates a pair of connections which are always the weak point in any system.”Another item misunderstood is the consideration for a DC-DC Charger when towing a TT and charging Lithium batteries from the tow vehicle. Lithium batteries have very low internal resistance. As a result, when a lithium battery is connected to an alternator, it demands maximum output. While your alternator may handle this while the engine is running at high speed and adequately cooled, the same load can damage the alternator when it is idling due to insufficient air flow, leading to an increase in temperature and potential burnout of the windings. There are many other items that clearly show the need for a DC-DC charger when towing a TT and charging with the TV alternator. Escape Trailer does actually have a well designed power system that incorporates all essential items needed. They are the in the minority. TT can charge batteries from solar and 120v power. Another interesting option is to connect an appropriately sized wire from the alternator to the TT DC-DC Charger. Then one can charge the Lithium batteries when without power or sun by just starting the tow vehicle. No need for a generator and quieter too. I wonder if that could be an option for LD owners instead of running the generator. (Clicking my heels) There is nothing like a LD, there is nothing like a LD!! Haha Ron S
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #16 – January 08, 2025, 04:14:10 pm Quote from: Sarz272000 - January 08, 2025, 03:22:20 pm“The lithium batteries we suggest have Bluetooth capability which tells you the battery state of charge, temperature and current flow directly to your phone. This eliminates the need for a shunt to measure the batteries (which never worked that well anyway) which eliminates a pair of connections which are always the weak point in any system.”Another item misunderstood is the consideration for a DC-DC Charger when towing a TT and charging Lithium batteries from the tow vehicle. Lithium batteries have very low internal resistance. As a result, when a lithium battery is connected to an alternator, it demands maximum output. While your alternator may handle this while the engine is running at high speed and adequately cooled, the same load can damage the alternator when it is idling due to insufficient airflow, leading to an increase in temperature and potential burnout of the windings. Then one can charge the Lithium batteries when without power or sun by just starting the tow vehicle. No need for a generator and quieter too. I wonder if that could be an option for LD owners instead of running the generator. Some issues with the dealer's report. While Bluetooth is good for providing the health of the battery, it does not track how many amp-hours of capacity are available, a battery monitor, using a shunt is the only way to track this. Shunts are not a "weak point", they are a well-proven technology. The fear of burning out the alternator is another falsehood, alternators are designed to reduce their output when they get hot, a feature they have had for decades. Our LD still uses the Factory isolator, the charge rates are not excessive with 300 amp/hours worth of lithium. That said, a DC-DC charger isn't a bad idea.Charging a TT's batteries off the alternator will provide moderate charging levels but it will be limited by the distance of the wire run and the small gauge wire used for such applications.Using the alternator to charge the coach battery in a LD is often done but the output is limited at idle speeds. Getting full output requires revving the engine to 1600-2000 RPM.As a long-term solution, it isn't suggested, replacing a worn-out generator is a lot cheaper than replacing the LD's engine.You are right about Escape trailers, they are well-designed and built. My brother owns an Escape 19. It's a nice, small TTLarry 2 Likes
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #17 – January 08, 2025, 05:38:32 pm Thanks Ron…Great comments as usual.The fear of burning out the alternator is another falsehood, alternators are designed to reduce their output when they get hot, a feature they have had for decades. - Driving at highway speeds a TV towing a TT for hours could process adequate cooling. Thus the alternator may not reduce output. My caution is that Lithium batteries are in a learning curve and one should not be comfortable with previously used habits until they are fully understood. Charging a TT's batteries off the alternator will provide moderate charging levels but it will be limited by the distance of the wire run and the small gauge wire used for such applications.- I assumed that the proper wire size is used to maximize charging. Having the DC-DC charger in a TT towed by a TV allows the DC-DC Charger to control the lithium charge level according to the three stage process (bulk, absorption, float). It would be interesting to see how well the TV charges at idle at camp….good point Ron! Part of that learning curve!You are right about Escape trailers, they are well-designed and built. My brother owns an Escape 19. - I just having trouble with the short ceiling in the wet bath and wet bath in general for a $65,000 TT!!Ron S
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #18 – January 08, 2025, 07:40:40 pm Quote from: Sarz272000 - January 08, 2025, 05:38:32 pm- Driving at highway speeds a TV towing a TT for hours could process adequate cooling. Thus the alternator may not reduce output. My caution is that Lithium batteries are in a learning curve and one should not be comfortable with previously used habits until they are fully understood. - I assumed that the proper wire size is used to maximize charging. Having the DC-DC charger in a TT towed by a TV allows the DC-DC Charger to control the lithium charge level according to the three-stage process (bulk, absorption, float). It would be interesting to see how well the TV charges at idle at camp….- I just having trouble with the short ceiling in the wet bath and wet bath in general for a $65,000 TT!!The alternator WILL reduce output if overheated, no matter what the vehicle or engine speed, don't worry about it. That's the way modern electronically controlled alternators function, they protect themselves from possible overloads due to electrical faults or shorts. Alternators rarely burn out, they normally wear out. I have not heard of anyone burning out a V10 alternator. The 10-gauge wiring between the battery isolator and/or battery relay to the coach battery is too small to carry enough current to overload the alternator. I doubt if the full available alternator output or that of a DC-DC converter will deliver full charging power to the TT unless all the connecting wiring is very large, 4-gauge or bigger, something have never seen in a tow setup, Escape trailers included.The cause is the voltage drop caused by the very long wiring run from the front of the tow vehicle to the trailer's battery, not to mention the voltage drop across fuses or breakers, the umbilical cord, and plugs. Voltage drop does an excellent job of killing charging efficiency.In my brother's Escape 19, I can barely stand up straight, if I stay away from the ceiling A/C. In his previous Escape 17', the ceiling was too short for me to stand up at all. My brother and his wife are a couple of inches shorter than I am, it works for them.Larry
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #19 – January 08, 2025, 07:58:41 pm “The lithium batteries we suggest have blue tooth capability which tells you the battery state of charge, temperature and current flow directly to your phone. This eliminates the need for a shunt to measure the batteries..."Uh, no. I'll give you an example. My Lithionics batteries have built-in Bluetooth and shunts, and an iOS app that gives quite a lot of information (see screenshots below). Yes, they tell you the current flow--although since I have two batteries, I have to multiply the number for a battery by two. Yes, they give an estimate of state of charge. There's just one problem: their coulomb-counting circuitry only counts full amps in or out. Small drains such as small LED lights don't get counted. The result is that as the battery discharges, the indicated SoC is further and further from reality as measured by my Victron BMV-712 battery monitor, which does count fractional drains.In short, the battery's state of charge number, as shown in its Bluetooth app, becomes increasingly overoptimistic as it drains.The information I get from my batteries' built-in Bluetooth is unquestionably useful. But it's no substitute for a whole-system monitor such as the BMV-712. (And as for the shunt being a well-known weak point... that's pure nonsense.) 1 Likes
Re: Lithium Battery Question Reply #20 – January 10, 2025, 11:25:11 am From Andy: "There's just one problem: their coulomb-counting circuitry only counts full amps in or out. Small drains such as small LED lights don't get counted. The result is that as the battery discharges, the indicated SoC is further and further from reality as measured by my Victron BMV-712 battery monitor, which does count fractional drains."I've had that problem with the 12V, 200AH Renogy battery when it's idle for a couple months or so between trips. Drove me nuts until I realized the battery was fine, the amp counting wasn't. I don't know if the cause is exactly the same, but the result is the same, so now I'm looking at external battery monitors, probably a Victron unit. 1 Likes
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