Power Window Delay December 30, 2023, 12:14:12 pm When I turn on the ignition or start the rig, I have a 12 second delay before the power windows function. What's the deal with that? Thanks. jor
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #1 – January 03, 2024, 04:57:51 pm Don't have that with our '04. Did this just start?Steve
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #2 – January 03, 2024, 05:27:02 pm QuoteDid this just start?Yea. I just noticed it a few weeks ago. I have been looking for a solution without success. I'm thinkin' it must be a relay. Fuses are good. jor
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #3 – January 05, 2024, 02:30:16 pm Hi Jor; Your rig is newer, mine has no window delays either way. My newer cars do have a delay when the ignition is turned off. About 10-15 seconds, that is cut off instantly if a door is opened. So you could have some 'Accessory energized' delay, either on or off. The power for the windows definitely is provided by a relay. Too much power for the key switch to handle on it's own. Could there be a problem with the key switch? Are any other items delayed also? Browsing a Ford truck forum, I got this: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1590674-the-standard-windows-and-radio-accessory-delay-problem.html RonB
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #4 – January 06, 2024, 11:46:08 am QuoteCould there be a problem with the key switch? Are any other items delayed also? No. The only issue is I have to wait 12 seconds after ignition for the power windows to be energized. That's an interesting link. I'm going to pursue a couple of the suggestions. I actually saw this link earlier but discounted it because I have not leaks. Onward!jor
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #5 – January 07, 2024, 09:38:45 pm Looking at our 2003 LD (there isn't much of a difference in the electrical systems), there isn't a power window relay The power window circuit is powered whenever the ignition switch is in the "ACC" or RUN" position, without any delayThe power window circuit is fused with a 20-amp self-resetting circuit breaker or a 30-amp fuse. If your LD has the circuit breaker it might be worth checking out, it is one of the few devices your LD has that had a delay. When the breaker is tripped, it needs time to cool off before resetting. Not sure how this could happen on at startup, who knows?FYI, each power window motor has its own circuit breaker that shuts the power off to the motor when it is all the way up or down. This eliminates the need for limit switches.Next up in your learning curve is replacing the power window regulators, get ready because its coming.Steve and I have replaced two each. Larry
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #6 – January 08, 2024, 11:06:00 am "FYI, each power window motor has its own circuit breaker that shuts the power off to the motor when it is all the way up or down. This eliminates the need for limit switches."Wow, that's... crude. Typical automaker practice, though--eliminate a seventy-five cent part, and you save a hundred thousand dollars over the course of a production run. (Anybody remember VW Beetles that powered the windshield washer with air from the spare tire? Clever, until you needed that spare and found it had been bled flat.) 1 Likes
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #7 – January 08, 2024, 01:02:33 pm Quote from: Andy Baird - January 08, 2024, 11:06:00 amWow, that's... crude. Typical automaker practice, though--eliminate a seventy-five cent part, and you save a hundred thousand dollars over the course of a production run. (Anybody remember VW Beetles that powered the windshield washer with air from the spare tire? Clever, until you needed that spare and found it had been bled flat.)The circuit breaker limit switch is crude, cheap and effective. Millions of cars have used this method.To make you feel better, maybe, today's cars have the power windows controlled by the Body Control Moudule or Computer. This makes troubleshooting even more complicated. Next to nothing is controlled directly in today's cars, computers control even the simplest things such as headlights and taillights.I owned a bunch of VWs in the 60's and 70's. I always carried a small, 12-volt air compressor, in case the spare was flat or airing up tires after off-roading. For all their faults, VWs made great backroad exploration vehicles, I never got one stuck.Larry
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #8 – January 08, 2024, 01:19:26 pm QuoteFor all their faults, VWs made great backroad exploration vehicles, I never got one stuck.Back in our yoot we lived out in the boonies. Winter, snow, ruts too deep in the driveway to make it up with the VW. How do we get this load of groceries and stuff to the house? Hey, it's a VW. Popped that hood off and used it as a sled. Good to go!jor
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #9 – January 08, 2024, 02:27:51 pm Hi Andy, Modern cars use a current monitor to stop the window at its limits. But mostly as a safety feature. If your kid, or pet sticks her or his head in it, or just an arm, maybe fingers, it will stop and be reversible to get the offending over current situation fixed, without breaking the really expensive window, or even more expensive amputated fingers. Not enough courage (or trust) to try it out though. RonB
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #10 – January 08, 2024, 03:36:38 pm "If your kid, or pet sticks her or his head in it, or just an arm, maybe fingers, it will stop..."I've got a Round Tuit you could use!
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #11 – January 08, 2024, 07:57:57 pm Hi Steve; A swim noodle would test it, but if I broke or chipped a window in my Lexus, it would cost a fortune! I once priced a front window at $3500+, but I settled for a thinner cheap knock off for $50, because that's what the insurance company would pay for. Seriously, like a GFCI, the electronics is fast enough to stop the window in motion before it hurts someone. Regular maintenance with lube, is important. My truck windows just go slower, until when the lights dim using the window, I clean and lube what I can reach. My 24 year old 'TK had something break inside the driver door, and I couldn't open it from outside. (about the 16 year mark). Took it apart and hand made a part to fix that. I did find that the person whose job it was to lube the inside had completely skipped my chassis driver door. It was completely dry. No grease anywhere! I've been in a lot of doors, installing speakers, etc. Never saw one so clean. No grease on the handle/lock mechanism. No grease on the window slider mechanism either. (should have taken pictures!) So I greased it up with polyethylene white grease. So far so good. Haven't used the passenger side as much. RonB
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #12 – January 11, 2024, 11:48:31 am "Modern cars use a current monitor to stop the window at its limits. But mostly as a safety feature."OK, that makes sense. If you have to have current sensing for safety reasons, you might as well use it in lieu of a limit switch. It's the same scenario, after all: increased current when movement is prevented. Thanks for explaining that, Ron.
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #13 – January 11, 2024, 05:14:27 pm Hi Andy; as an electronics technician you might enjoy this Youtube video that I found about CANBUS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYps7vT708E The one after that is about OBD2. These standards and protocols affect the 'guts' and operation of car electronics since about 1991. Technical but interesting. When I was working in the early '80's I worked on (and utilized) local area networking data transmission specifics for automated systems (proprietary to my employer) similar to the CANBUS, which is getting more involved. FD and XL extensions. RonB 1 Likes
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #14 – January 11, 2024, 06:37:59 pm "...as an electronics technician you might enjoy this..."Yes, mildly!While I could follow the presentation did I understand it? NO.Did I learn anything of value? NO.Will I benefit from this knowledge? NO, not enough time left!
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #15 – January 12, 2024, 11:49:03 am Thanks, Ron! While some of that was over my head, it was very interesting, since I knew nothing about CAN bus other than the name. I see that they also have an introduction to OBD2. I'll watch that one later.
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #16 – January 12, 2024, 12:14:07 pm What the switch from devices wired directly to another device to using a bus systems has vastly complicated troubleshooting problem with a bunch of expensive tools needed plus needing subscriptions to online repair manuals that provide access through security modules and specific information. Everything in todays cars is computer controlled. The day has come where home mechanics cannot determine the cause of many issues and is forced to use professionals who have the tools and training to maybe figure out what has gone wrong.Larry
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #17 – January 12, 2024, 01:23:45 pm "Everything in todays cars is computer controlled."A sad day indeed! The 'Shade Tree Mechanic' is a dying breed, what will we teach our sons and daughters?
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #18 – January 12, 2024, 04:39:02 pm Quote from: Lazy Bones - January 12, 2024, 01:23:45 pm"Everything in todays cars is computer controlled."A sad day indeed! The 'Shade Tree Mechanic' is a dying breed, what will we teach our sons and daughters? I'm not sure things are that bleak. My college age sons can tackle just about any project with youtube, message boards, and owners groups. They have access to third party or homegrown diagnostic software on their phones (via OBD2 dongles) that frequently comes with a community of support to interpret readings and diagnose issues. They can order just about any part ever made and have it on their doorstep in a couple of days. They find wiring diagrams and service manual procedures on the internet, or have someone they met online (who often works at a shop) send them photos from the manufacturer resources about what they need to know. They can borrow/rent some pretty nice tools at the part store for free, or buy a cheap version of an infrequently used tool. In seconds, they can look up inventory at the local junkyard, often crossmatching the part they need with different years and models that might have it.While cars have gotten more complicated, resources have expanded tremendously. I had me, myself, and I, a few craftsman tools, and a Chilton manual. They are completing projects I never would have attempted at that age. They find deals on facebook marketplace with a reach that so far exceeds what I have in the newspaper classifieds. There are still plenty of young car enthusiasts out there, and a lot of us would be surprised at how resourceful they can be. Rich 2 Likes
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #19 – January 12, 2024, 09:52:27 pm "My college age sons can tackle just about any project with YouTube, message boards, and owners groups." You just made my point... we used to do the same job with a pair of slip-joint pliers and a hank of bailing wire. Once in a while we would stoop to using duct tape, but not often!
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #20 – January 13, 2024, 08:55:52 pm CAN bus is a simple "one backbone" replacement for old-style rat's-nest wiring that had individual wires going from A to B, B to C, C to A, D to E, E to B, and so on. From an engineering and reliability standpoint, it's a huge improvement. To troubleshoot a CAN bus system, instead of tracing a spiderweb of wires (most of which are difficult or impossible to access), you use a computer to trace software signals from the comfort of your chair. Are different skills required? Yes. But younger mechanics like Rich's sons learn those skills, just as older mechanics learned how to adjust a carburetor.As a 74-year-old former electronics tech and software developer, I could learn to troubleshoot CAN bus systems. But the need isn't that urgent, and frankly, I've grown lazy in my old age. But I don't sit around wishing to turn back the clock. I like my 2021 truck's features. 1 Likes
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #21 – January 14, 2024, 10:49:49 pm All this extra complexity can be a huge improvement, but it can also come back and bite you.How This 2018 Ford F-150’s Faulty Taillight Turned Into a $5,600 RepairSteve 1 Likes
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #22 – January 15, 2024, 12:25:23 am Gotta admit, that's a scary story. A cascading failure caused by a leaking taillight resulting in a $5,600 repair bill--ugh!
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #23 – January 15, 2024, 02:01:24 am Two months ago my 2020 Jeep Wrangler's check engine light came on. A basic scanner showed only a generic fuel pump issue code. My better web-enabled scanner wouldn't open up the Jeep's inner information systems without buying an authorization code from Mopar for the Jeep's VIN. That's right, to look at your own vehicle's deeper OBDII codes, it requires a $50 yearly subscription per vehicle or VIN. In 2015, hackers demonstrated the ability to take over Jeep Cherokee's controls. Mopar's long-term fix was to incorporate s Security Module that prevents unauthorized access through cellular connections, the entertainment system or the OBDII port. A single VIN subscription is now how you get into the computer.https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33650491Once the subscription was paid and the software loaded, the scanner indicated a lack of communication between the Powertrain Control Module) and the Fuel Pump Control Module but didn't provide any cause.To see how the systems were wired, a complete schematic would be useful but none are found online except by buying a yearly subscription to Jeep's shop manual. Interestingly next to no sources of information about how Jeep's bus systems work or how to troubleshoot them could be found online after quite a bit of searching. After many hours of reading through the shop manual and exploring the diagnostic trail, I ended up at the point where the book says to connect to the dealer's big diagnostic machine, loaded with proprietary information. The end of the line for home diagnosticsThe story goes on but to say that solving these problems just requires a younger mind is missing the point, information is now private and limited glimmers of information must be paid for or to pay the dealer to perform the diagnostic and repair work.I wish it was as easy as sitting in front of a computer and having the problem solved but it isn't. If younger minds are solving these problems, they sure are not making any YouTube videos or boasting on any of the forums I searched.Larry 5 Likes
Re: Power Window Delay Reply #24 – January 15, 2024, 01:57:00 pm QuoteThe story goes on but to say that solving these problems just requires a younger mind is missing the pointThe brighter 'younger minds' were busy working on how to hide the data and monetize access to it. That was the corporate way to solve the problem. 2 Likes
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