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Design: wave a magic wand with me
With the overpriced, terrible quality RV industry alienating new buyers, maybe we could do a design exercise to imagine a simpler, better way to build a mobile box for both paved roads and gravel. Not totally offroad, just a little. No sand or heavy mud or deep snow.
What do you think would be an ideal length? Which would lead to your thoughts on a chassis, which would probably be truck rather than stretched Lincoln limo. Small box truck?
And what fixtures? You know, when I was a boy, toilets on trains just flushed right on to the tracks, which was fascinating. Laws aside, can simple designs like that save weight and money? Because cost is critical, with so many folks charged out or buried under loans. Bye bye, black tank!
Simplify, simplify, simplify. Do we really need a propane tank, or could you get by with a small two-burner stove with little propane bottle? A fridge... or an ice chest? Power -- maybe for this we could say that you would be able to recharge once every three days. Would that cut appliance cost and complexity?
Luxuries. A good bed is an absolute must, since it doesn't take up any more space than a bad one. Other thoughts? If you like to play with design ideas, chime in!
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #1 –
Quote from: Jon Donahue  - 
With the overpriced, terrible quality RV industry alienating new buyers, maybe we could do a design exercise to imagine a simpler, better way to build a mobile box for both paved roads and gravel. Not totally offroad, just a little. No sand or heavy mud or deep snow.
What do you think would be an ideal length? Which would lead to your thoughts on a chassis, which would probably be truck rather than stretched Lincoln limo. Small box truck?
And what fixtures? You know, when I was a boy, toilets on trains just flushed right on to the tracks, which was fascinating. Laws aside, can simple designs like that save weight and money? Because cost is critical, with so many folks charged out or buried under loans. Bye bye, black tank!
Simplify, simplify, simplify. Do we really need a propane tank, or could you get by with a small two-burner stove with little propane bottle? A fridge... or an ice chest? Power -- maybe for this we could say that you would be able to recharge once every three days. Would that cut appliance cost and complexity?
Luxuries. A good bed is an absolute must, since it doesn't take up any more space than a bad one. Other thoughts? If you like to play with design ideas, chime in!

I continue to look for new products though 4 years away from purchase. Market is saturated do we really want to have a new design. Product varies from just shell on tocoma/tundra from four wind (you can design the shell you wish) you get just sleeping space which orient your design. On the other hand is big trucks from Europe or US version GXV ... almost all of them are electric. No propane or generator ... I found an interesting diagram on expedition portal, it has visual chart on size and turning Dia... and some leading vendors. Hope picture will come through.
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #2 –
I agree there are many expensive poorly build RVs out there.   However, I cannot see a start up (or existing manufacturer) creating a well built inexpensive RV, the Lazy Daze days are gone.

Based upon my year on the road with my TK with upgrades (850 watts solar, 400ah batteries, and whole house inverter) here’s how I would design a new TK from the ground up, same layout, but basically all electric.   It’s how I operated this year, and the propane side was idle, something I couldn’t imagine doing twenty years ago.   Yes redundant is nice, but that’s a lot of flame based appliances being carried and maintained.

Optimize the roof layout to add at least a 6th panel, providing 1000 watts.

Remove the gas generator, insulate and make that the battery bay for at least 800ah lithium.

Repurpose the existing battery bay for an inside facing cabinet.

Eliminate all propane appliances
Replace the oven/cooktop with a high speed convection oven (airfry) and induction cooktop
Electric water heater
DC compressor fridge
No propane furnace

Would want a Wave 3 catalytic heater, questionable whether I want the existing propane setup just for that.

Would keep grey/black tanks but somehow solve the low hanging dump plumbing.
    



Dave

2017 TK
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #3 –
Looking for a simpler RV?  The Vanner movement has produced combinations with as much or as little equipment as you want. I'm not sure what it is that you are looking for.
 No black tank, refrigerator, or built-in stove sounds a lot like a Chevy camper van we once owned many years ago when we were much younger. It had a good bed.

Our 24' Front Lounge LD is about as small and simple a living unit with full services as we would want now.
The Caravan Clubs sub-group we belong to is called the "Past Tents" and describes how most of us feel about primitive camping.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #4 –
So -- if we all agree, as Larry says, that any existing LD design is vey, very good -- then Dave, could you tell us how much it would cost to 'electrify' a 24' as per your list... and then Muhammad, you might save a great deal of money buying an older Lazy Dave at less than $20,000 and then refitting it with Dave's shopping list? Guess I'm searching for a sweet spot here... though imagining converting a used box truck is fun. What's tough for a designer is that the existing LD vehicles... of any age... are excellent and hard to improve on.
And I agree with your comments that there won't be any new high-quality RV maker coming along. LDs were selling at $100,000... no discounts... and my magic wand dream of something quality but simpler at about $50,000 is probably impossible...
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #5 –
Quote from: Jon Donahue  - 
And I agree with your comments that there won't be any new high-quality RV maker coming along. LDs were selling at $100,000... no discounts... and my magic wand dream of something quality but simpler at about $50,000 is probably impossible...

Quite impossible.  

The Ford e450 cutaway chasiss starts at more than $40k.   It can only go up from there.

https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-series-cutaway/models/e450-cutaway-drw/?intcmp=vhp-models-detail

Rich
 
2003 MB
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #6 –
Hi Jon, Interesting to speculate.  Many years ago I wanted to buy a Trek motorhome, based on an Isuzu NPR diesel chassis. It was class A 24 foot motorhome. I saw one recently in very good condition (lightly used in Moreno Valley near me) for about $8000. I nearly got it just to play with.  It had an upgraded diesel tank of 55 gallons and a real mileage of about 14 mpg.  The model year '93 was the best.  Safari Trek Motorhome - Wikipedia

   Modernizing it, while keeping it useable, could be fun.  Upgrades that could be done: a small diesel space heater is now available.  It would do the job.  A flat roof with about 1.4 kw of solar, along with1600 AH of lithium batteries would allow major use of a microwave oven. Propane would still be needed. Along with a fresh water tank.  Waste water holding tanks are required by most jurisdictions. With enough solar and electric, ashing arrangements for waste water would work. Incinolet is one such item.   Cinderella® Travel Incineration Toilet — The Cabin Depot   .
    Here is a distributor of bare new chassis https://www.badgertruck.com/2020-isuzu-npr-mpg-specifications/#:~:text=2020%20Isuzu%20NPR%20MPG%20By%20Trim%20Configuration&text=C3%20Isuzu%20NPR%20Diesel%3A%2016,Diesel%3A%2011.98%20MPG%20(estimated)
     An up to date chassis: Isuzu N-Series diesel trucks offer  A B10 Rating (built to last for 375,000 miles)
     A 5.2L Isuzu 4HK1-TC 5.2-liter diesel engine backed by a 3-year/unlimited mile warranty.  A 215 hp engine with
     a  GVWR/GCWR of 14,500/20,000 pounds
   I had planned to make it to resemble a midBath about 25' with the traditional paint pattern, windows, and interior. More use of an Azdel like panel for the walls and floor.  I had access to excess property at McDonald Douglas aircraft in Long Beach. A lightweight, honeycomb plastic material used for aircraft flooring wasn't all that expensive. A basement air conditioning unit would allow more panels on the roof.
     Doing the work yourself, might take a year or so. Costs for a custom vehicle are high for parts, and resale value near zero.  Some parks won't let you in unless you are RVIA certified. Getting any type of insurance would be dicey. And no insurance would pay what it cost you to construct one.  You would have to do your own maintenance and repairs also.   RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #7 –
I would be happy with a Lazy Daze built on a truck chassis.
A 450/4500 would be plenty for my wishes.
I'd order the chassis with 4wd and start by upgrading the suspension.
Then plop whichever LD floor plan on it and add the latest electrical gizmos
like solar and a huge battery bank.

If money were not an issue, I'd have one of the custom makers make me my dream setup.
That would most likely cost in the $300,000 range all in.
Jota
96 23.5 FL
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #8 –
RobB -- you've thought this problem through -- and financially, it's not exactly a ray of sunshine. Hadn't considered resale value, and am sad to hear that some parks won't allow homemade rigs. They also discriminate against older RVs like my 1991 LD, right? Oh well. Out in the world, runway models are over the hill at 31 too...
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #9 –
Quote from: Jon Donahue  - 
any existing LD design is vey, very good -- then Dave, could you tell us how much it would cost to 'electrify' a 24' as per your list... and then Muhammad, you might save a great deal of money buying an older Lazy Dave at less than $20,000 and then refitting it with Dave's shopping list? Guess I'm searching for a sweet spot here...
My current solar setup cost me 20k to have someone install last year, but it’s half that done yourself.

Doubt you can find space for a 6th panel on a 24’ RV, but certainly could remove the generator and add more batteries for another $5000.

Update all the lighting to LED, $500?

Replace the stove, oven, fridge, maybe another $3000.
For an existing built Lazy Daze, can’t see removing the furnace and propane water heater.

Dave

2017 TK
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #10 –
I think I paid $120K for MB and though delivery was in 2021 price was published in 2019. At that point Earth Cruiser if my memory is correct was around $450K. If I buy Earth Cruiser today it start with $600(I am sure it will be close to 700K after options) It is not just Earth Cruiser, I am watching GXV and same story.

I think supply chain issues or lack of Ford Chasis killed LD. If it is around I doubt we can buy one for less than 200K today (I would say it will be a bargain if you see other motorhome prices today). I hope you noticed step price increase in last couple of years of LD.

Aa for technology it is getting cheaper ... what folks paid few years does not apply. Before last trip I bought 400ah battery for around $1100 plus I put in dc to dc charger i don't recall how much I paid for it but it should not be more than $200. Folks here helped me to put the system and labor was not even 2 hrs. During six month long trip there were occasions we did not have shore power for four weeks straight and I was running bipap machine with full humidifier and heated tube  every night. Occasionally I was using electric heaters as well (cheap battery has BMS built in and shut down the power if charge is below a threshold). Few hours of driving top the battery charge and it was not by design but solar after charging coach battery was sending current to new battery. Another side benefit is my house battery never go below 90% which will increase house battery life. Lithium battery I put in is suppose to last 10 years, we will see but so far so good.

I thought coach screws will start getting loose while going to Alaska. Still waiting for even first screw to get out. As for handling, I do not have any issue at all and I even forget that I am driving truck but our driving day is short ... I saw few German tourist in military like trucks. I think I can goto many more places with manageable size .... my experience with motorhome is very limitted and was nervous but guess next time I can goto more dirt roads if I ever go back to Alaska (I should and now I know why folks go there multiple time).

So question is why the heck am I looking at Earth Cruiser .... I have no idea. I think it may make it easier going across the pond but will it? Why can't I just ship LD. For international trips we need to be physically and mentally ready to leave motorhome and fly back .. 700K is not small change at least not for this retired couple. By the time I am ready it may be 1M :-)

Cheers
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Muhammad  - 
So question is why the heck am I looking at Earth Cruiser .... I have no idea. I think it may make it easier going across the pond but will it? Why can't I just ship LD. For international trips we need to be physically and mentally ready to leave motorhome and fly back .. 700K is not small change at least not for this retired couple. By the time I am ready it may be 1M :-)

For kicks I looked at the cost to ship my TK to Europe last week, about 8-10k round trip, not too bad.   But then you have to get insurance over there as your coverage won’t follow you (at least another 1k a month), the differences in voltage, propane connections, etc.

But really keeps me from the above is my driving experiences in England, France, Italy, and Portugal over the past eight years.  Would it be possible to drive where I went?  Maybe half the places.  An American class C just wasn’t designed for those roads.

Better to look at renting an RV over there for 1k a week, they just work better with the voltage and smaller roads.   I’ve seen some nifty rigs over there that makes more sense in Europe.   If you’re staying for 3-6 months, leasing/buying makes more sense.

And no, I have no immediate plans for an RV adventure across the pond soon.

Dave

2017 TK
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #12 –
Dave,
Everybody.s vision is diffrent and diversity is the spices of life .... all of us worked very hard for 30-35 years and this is the time to execute on our dreams.... with my health history, I do value time very much and also know that there is not much time left ... I saw this link in my inbox today .... Overlanding Africa In A Truck Camper - Truck Camper Magazine and nothing is stopping me doing similar exploration and I am very fortunate to have second pair of eyes with me to keep me honest with my age, health and other resources.

I can easily take overlanding organized tour starting from England going Sourth Africa along Westrn coast and making a uturn in South Africa and end in Egypt coming north mostly on the Eastern coast line lasting almost a year. Easy solution to my desire, I just pay tour company and pack my bags and book a flight and am done .....  We took similar tours in past but there is nothing like your own bed and bath with you and you are sitting on the diver seat and setting your path as you go. We are spoiled after experiencing LD :-) As for shipping cost, insurance, security, etc. etc. etc. agreed we can do better without them but it is part of the deal, I gave it lot of thought and in my opinion it is worth it.

Again, please do not take this message as negative, just want to say everybody has different needs .... I bought LD to have a proof of concept and it has done more than what I was expcting. Will use it to explore US/Canada and who knows Mexico for next 4 years and at that time I will be ready to take a truck and have a popup on the back to have smaller footprint. Plan is a plan till executed, right now recovering from chemo and unfortunately caught infection at wrong time but I was planning on RV purchse when I was on the bed for seven years and that dream worked out. For now I am happy to plan and dream .... enoug on this topic and sorry to hijack the thread.

Take care,
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #13 –
Oh, that side of the pond, Africa is absolutely cause for an Earth Cruiser or something similar.  That would be a grand adventure!

My apologies for assuming Europe.
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #14 –
I met a very nice German couple touring in their own rig. Shipping was less than renting for their "6 month" tour. They were on month 8 with little idea when they'd actually be done.  Sounded like a great plan to me.
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #15 –
lets explore the neighbourhood first :-) there are too many pretty places in US and Canada and I am also discovering nicer places in Mexico as well.

Dave, if I am able to execute my plan then why not start with Norway go north before deeping down south to Africa. Earth Cruiser is little expensive compared to comparatively (or better) GXV ... no, not with big truck I am talking about as small foot print as possible Pangea-LT Lifting Roof Expedition Vehicle - GLOBAL EXPEDITION VEHICLES.

Be well and I notice that you are planning for Newfoundland next summer. I may see you again on the road. I cannot set the dates as my son ask me to keep summer open :-)
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #17 –
Quote from: Muhammad  - 
lets explore the neighbourhood first :-) there are too many pretty places in US and Canada and I am also discovering nicer places in Mexico as well.

Dave, if I am able to execute my plan then why not start with Norway go north before heading down south to Africa.
.
.
.
Be well and I notice that you are planning for Newfoundland next summer. I may see you again on the road. I cannot set the dates as my son ask me to keep summer open :-)
Best of luck on your plans.

Newfoundland is on this year’s list, assuming I can find a mechanic that can fix the cylinder misfire codes that have been with me since Alaska.   Expecting to leave Wyoming late March to chase the April 8th eclipse, then north and east towards the Canadian Maritimes. But no itinerary yet.

Interestingly enough, Scandinavia is planned for next winter (conventional, no RV) for the solar maximum.
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #18 –
Quote from: Dave Katleman  - 
Best of luck on your plans.

Newfoundland is on this year’s list, assuming I can find a mechanic that can fix the cylinder misfire codes that have been with me since Alaska.   Expecting to leave Wyoming late March to chase the April 8th eclipse, then north and east towards the Canadian Maritimes. But no itinerary yet.

Interestingly enough, Scandinavia is planned for next winter (conventional, no RV) for the solar maximum.

I thought engine light was history by now .... this is bummer ....

I just watched a four part travel log of Norway. Guy I think is a professional photographer ... he drove on paved road to the most northern part of Europe (north of Arctic circle). You will have good time and post pictures.

We took tanscanada last year and exclusively stayed in Provisional parks (there may be few exceptions). Enjoyed that leg of the trip and my depression of leaving Alaska/Yukon/BC was cured (avoid the park close to Toronto and Edmonton) ...  attaching the link, if it help you (I hope it has the name of the provisional parks we stayed). To my surprise most of the parks were almost full, you may want to make advance reservations. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1ZtgPTnOeHhJ6rQgXcZneXvo-Sw99dRc&ll=49.976575614322215%2C-112.96121500000004&z=4

Take care,
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #19 –
Quote from: Jerry  - 
Base Price:  $420,000 wow

you need to read fine prints ..... add atleast 25-35% on top of it for options ..... I do have four years and hope stock market continue to perform average and I will be ready :-) Patagonia with Kenworth is another option but then I will have to sell my home :-)
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #20 –
Rather than saying that some of these off road RVs are incredibly overpriced, Earthroamer at $750,000 and another I saw today was a glorified Dodge pickup with a fancy camper for an eye watering $1.2 million.
Don touched on it, it’s a lot to do with the nut behind the wheel.
In the autumn of 2012 I met a lady who was in her last month of a 6 month tour of the USA, she was heading back to Munich. When she showed the photos of her previous trip I was amazed, Munich to Capetown via east Africa. Her coach was an Inveco chassis rear wheel drive.
2005 T/K
 
Re: Design: wave a magic wand with me
Reply #21 –
beside price i am also worried about other logistics issue with big vehicles. I know about inflation but most of these vendors increase their prices by 50+% since covid. There are lot to explore in US/Canada but I do want to go beyond US/Canada without putting a target on my back. When it comes to that time I will look for something close to Earth TerraNova, GXV Turtle or Nimble. There are few more competitors of one ton flat bed fixed campers.

Other goal is to make sure my wife come with me happily. We are very happy and comfy in LD MB travelling last three years and for that kind of comfort I need EarthRoamer or GXV Pentagonia. Even if I can financially afford it I cannot justify spending so much resources when folks in the world are suffering.

Another issue is truck availability in US. If I go with small foot print we will be stuck with one of the three US trucks which cannot be serviced outside. This keep me coming back to Kenworth truck and only quality vendor at this point is GVX with their Pentagonia model. I saw Earth Cruiser but heavily modified Isuzu cannot be understood by mechanics in third world country.

I do not think we need four-wheel drive but I am aware of road quality and I doubt Lazy Daze will survive for long. My target is 40th anniversary which give me four years to think and research. If I don't do then oppertunity is perminantly lost ....