Black tank fell out August 26, 2023, 07:51:39 pm Our black tank fell out. Thankfully, it happened while parked at our house and not while driving. We just came back from an 8,000 mile journey across the country and back, so things could have been much worse. (We thought being stranded in the Arkansas heat for three weeks waiting for a transmission replacement was bad enough.)I need to understand how to remove the the box under the toilet without causing more damage, so that I can get to the place where the toilet exit pipe joins (well, is supposed to join) with the tank.Our precious is a 1998 26.5' mid-bath.Removing the toilet (Thetford Aqua Magic V) seems simple enough. But I don't want to just start prying up the box it's sitting on without knowing how it is secured. It's entirely covered with linoleum, so I can't see any screws or fasteners. Should I just start peeling back the linoleum and look for screws or nails?The background is that lately, sewage smells while driving has been getting worse and worse. And I noticed outdoor leakage when the black tank was filled up to the top, while flushing with water. So I suspected the joint between the PVC pipe that connects the toilet to the tank. I guess I was right because that seems to be what failed. It seems like that joint was one of the only two things securing the tank, because it is hanging by something toward the front of the rig, but the back end of the tank fell to the ground (resting on the blade valve). About 3,000 miles ago I hit a road cone which cracked the joint between the tank and the exit-pipe. I slathered JB Weld all around that joint, which worked very well (after a few applications to catch all the leaks). That road cone strike probably made the other pipe joint worse as well.If anyone has had to remove the toilet pedestal, and knows what I'm in for, that would be very helpful.Also, is there a way to secure the tank better than just relying on the pipe joints?Thank you!
Re: Black tank fell out! Reply #1 – August 27, 2023, 10:16:42 am Sorry to hear about your tank, Alan & Mary! How fortunate that it didn't happen while you were driving.I haven't removed the toilet pedestal, so I can't help you there. But I can tell you that the tank was not held in place by its pipe joints. It's much too heavy for that. Lazy Daze holding tanks are usually secured by either straps or clamps underneath the tank. I've seen those clamps come loose, and it's possible that's what happened in your case.I don't have a good photo of one of the clamps, but here's a closeup of one on my 2003 midbath. It's partially obscured by the sprayed-on foam insulation , so I've outlined it in red. The clamp fits into a recess molded into the bottom edge of the tank. 5 Likes
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #2 – August 27, 2023, 10:24:18 am Andy … I believe you must have every picture you ever took of your Lazy Daze! I doubt many people have a pic of their black/gray tank. I certainly don’t. But we’re certainly grateful for your vast library of LD pictures. Btw, I’m thinking the above picture is the black tank.
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #3 – August 27, 2023, 10:55:01 am Yes, I saved all the photos I took, and I took a lot of photos. Especially for things that are inconvenient to access, it's good to have a photo on hand for reference so you don't have to crawl under, disassemble, etc. To clarify: I initially posted a photo of the gas tank (duh!). I quickly realized my mistake (because it wasn't covered with foam like the holding tanks), and went digging for a picture of the black tank clamp, but it took me half an hour to find it and edit the post. The photo in my post now is of the black tank. 3 Likes
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #4 – August 27, 2023, 03:26:21 pm Thank you Andy. It was held by three brackets like that one in your photo. Two of them failed because of water damage. The underside metal panel is rusted out under the toilet and some of it fell away with the tank. It looks like I might also have some wood rot in the sub-floor.Any advice? I'm at a loss.Thank you,-Alan
Re: Black tank fell out! Reply #5 – August 27, 2023, 03:34:51 pm Hi Alan and Mary; I know the feeling! Two weeks ago the toilet in my '99 became unattached partly from the floor. I've ordered new parts for the flange and replaced the vacuum breaker. Tomorrow I expect to have it reassembled. There is one screw that joins the white cover together for the pedestal. Phillips on the left side. You can uncover the pedestal base. There are four screws that attach the toilet to the mounting flange on the floor. The mounting flange on the floor has eight slotted flathead screws that attach this pipe to the floor. My gasket had rotted away and had allowed those eight screws to rust significantly. I ground the rust out to healthy metal using a burr, and filled the resulting holes with Bondo. (car body filler). The ABS flange is still firmly attached to the floor, hopefully as long as I need it. With luck your flange will be in better shape. The black tank (and other tanks also) on my rig are attached with steel clamps around the outside of the tank. I'm pretty sure my small 18 gallon tank has four hangers. I would think your MB has more. The metal clamps are attached with carriage bolts through the motorhome floor in more hidden areas, but should be easily visible from underneath the rig. The clamps fit into molded indentations in the tank. But you need to check that these bolts are tight at least every few years. My '99 hanger clamps and bolts seem OK. I haven't checked them in a while (OK a few years, my cue to check them tomorrow!). Your Midbath runs the toilet drain pipe aft to above the rear axle and into the black tank. Not at a very steep angle and is known to have drainage issues into the tank. You should be able to see that pipe from underneath. I would think that there may be a flexible coupling somewhere in that line going to the tank, but maybe not. and a traffic cone at sufficient speed could have damaged the drain pipe or tank. I believe that there is a rubber coupling between both gray and black tanks for the drain gate valves. Those exit locations are easily visible on the drivers side near the duals. Those are probably ok, unless that traffic cone hit those gate valves. (I ran over a cone that an RV with a dolly, in front of me, knocked over into me at 50 mph. It made quite a racket and damaged some stuff. My step and exhaust pipe, passenger side. So I know what can happen, not trivial!) Your '98 should have the same SeaLand Traveler 510 that I have. This is the kit I needed for the base: Amazon.com: LETSYEE 385310063 Floor Flange Seal and Mounting Kit Replacement... It looks like the right part. I'll let you know tomorrow!I ordered the gasket between the porcelain bowl and pedestal, but I don't plan on disturbing that seal until I need to change the flush valve. I'm waiting until I need to replace that, so far it's still working. I don't need to pull the toilet pedestal out again for that. I did replace the vacuum breaker. It was leaking fresh water once in a while. This is the part I ordered. It's installed, but I haven't tried it yet. Amazon.com: 385230325 Toilet Vacuum Breaker for Hand Spray Replacement for... I ordered that in April, now it isn't available. There are other vendors with similar parts. I don't think you need to remove that 'box'. That was a way to raise the drain line for it's run to the tank. Underneath the rig the situation may be clearer. Empty and flush the tank as well as you can before you start working on this. It can be a bit 'messy'. RonB 4 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #6 – August 27, 2023, 03:46:48 pm Hi Alan, While I was writing my above post, your reply arrived. Rotted flooring structure necessary to sustain the weight of a full holding tank certainly is a problem that will need to be resolved. Not too bad maybe if you can do the work yourself. Pretty expensive if you need to pay someone to clean things up. I think it is unusual to have this situation. I don't remember any reports about something like this on our forum in the past. Pictures will help us consider the damage. RonB 1 Likes
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #7 – August 27, 2023, 05:55:35 pm Good information, Ron. "I would think that there may be a flexible coupling somewhere in that line going to the tank, but maybe not."It's solid PVC pipe all the way down, with two angled elbows. I don't have a photo, but I have inspected the area with a borescope, and made a drawing: 4 Likes
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #8 – August 27, 2023, 07:33:41 pm Hi Andy; Thanks for the diagram. I was thinking that the toilet was farther forward from the rear axle. I'm pretty sure that the 2001 MB I worked on for a few months (in 2017) had the black tank in the back, or the drain valve was behind the axle. (looking for my pictures. A neighbor sold his MB a few months ago, so I have no close by model to look at. From wondering what went wrong with the plumbing, now its a problem with structure that affected the plumbing. The plumbing really doesn't have much to go wrong except stress on the connection at the tank. That really can't be fixed until the tank is re-secured in place. A steel Unistrut connection across to healthy parts of the floor may allow it to be remounted in place. The original source of the water leak would be a start. The shower is right there in that area. RonB 1 Likes
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #9 – August 29, 2023, 02:42:21 pm Thank you for your advice Ron. Here's a pano of the underside with the black tank removed. Left is fore, right aft. Up is driver's side. 1 Likes
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #10 – August 30, 2023, 04:30:05 am Hi Alan, I didn't get a picture. Sometimes the pictures take a while to attach, before you post. RonB
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #11 – August 30, 2023, 10:44:16 am That photo link has syntax problems: too many left brackets, and it doesn't seem to follow the format used by the discussion group software used by this group. Alan, did you use the forum's link-embedding tool (looks like a tiny picture with a green plus sign at lower right), or type it in by hand?Perhaps the moderators could shed light on this.
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #12 – August 30, 2023, 10:58:21 am Hi Andy; I was messaging Margee about this image, that my Chrome browser couldn't see, while you were looking at it, and now it is working as it should have originally. Maybe the Elkhart system or you, fixed it for me. Thanks. In any event the photo does reveal the toilet outlet. Black ABS plumbing on my rig, looks like white PVC in this one year older rig here. The small vent pipe is ABS, and the forward clamp looks ok. Alan needs to find out what was leaking to cause this damage. I'm guessing the shower drain, or water supply to the toilet. The fix might not be too hard. At least none of it shows anywhere else. Hopefully the tank isn't damaged. Of course the toilet will have to be removed to repair the flange and screw threaded part into the tank after the black tank is back in place. RonB edit: Looking more at the picture I wonder if there was a tire (one of the duals) blowout that caused damage to this area previously, and that it wasn't repaired properly. I'm pretty sure that the LD factory would have the proper black ABS DWV plumbing into the black tank like my rig has. 1 Likes
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #14 – August 30, 2023, 11:33:52 am The photo reveals the missing plywood floor bottom, the fiberglass insulation should not be exposed.. Did the missing plywood come out with the tank?Repairing the floor so it can support a full tank needs to be done before proceeding.More photos and determining the extent of the rot would helpful to us, allowing us to better find a solution.LarryShelter Cove 1 Likes
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #15 – August 30, 2023, 07:20:56 pm I expect the moderators fixed it. I don't have those superpowers any more. 😉
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #16 – August 31, 2023, 04:17:15 pm Thank you everyone for your help.The black tank was replaced in 2017, which may explain the white pipe. The tank does look to be in good shape. What fell out with the insulation was the thourougly-rusted metal sheet. I don't see evidence of plywood between the insulation and the metal.I believe the shower does leak, but we haven't used it for years. I did have a couple of bad water accidents in the toilet area (rinse hose got out-of-hand).I'll know more this weekend when I have time to get under there and take a much closer look. I'll post more photos if they can shed new light.I do appreciate all your advice. I hope I can make this repair myself.-Alan
Re: Black tank fell out Reply #17 – August 31, 2023, 07:12:07 pm "Now that I’m sitting down, I’m starting to feel drowsy. "My experience with the rinse hose was that it rarely did a complete job, and it wasted water. I ended up just using a toilet brush. Every time I flush solids, I give a quick circular swipe with the brush, ending up in the valve opening. It takes almost exactly two seconds, and the toilet stays completely clean. I don't know for certain whether I'm using less water than with the rinser, but I'm certainly not using more. As a bonus, I haven't had any mineral buildup on the valve ball or gasket in the three years I've owned this rig.
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