Are these insulated waste tanks?

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July 28, 2019, 01:18:45 am

So I was looking around under the RV today.
I learned a couple things.

1) It appears our holding tanks are insulated with that spray on foam stuff, but I could not be sure. It is hard but bumpy - not smooth. Pictures attached ... Are these insulated?

2) We seem to have one of those tank rinsers. There is a hose (flexible water type hose) that goes from the black tank to the outside of the rig. I was wondering what that outside piece was for... I will have to try it out. It looks usable (a slight kink in the hose close to the tank, but looks like that flexible hose could be easily replaced).
The hose enters the black tank on the cab side of the tank. How do I confirm which side the sensors are on? I think I saw 4 wires coming in from the other side of the black tank (I am reaching the camera around trying to see things but I think I can get a head under that spot). Are those sensors visible from inside the tank (we have a straight to the tank view so easy to get a scope into it).

3) Just measuring from the outside, it looks like the black and grey tank should hold the same gallons (roughly) (same cu ft inside). Though the grey tank is not a prefect rectangle, it dips down in the middle (low part runs from side to side of the rig). Attached is a drawing - the shape is like that. The entire grey tank is further away from the rig then the black tank is, I am guessing so they could fit the p-trap for the shower in.
Maybe that grey tank doesn't have a flat top but is concave instead (middle is not nearly as think as it looks)?
Measurements from below (very rough) is Black: 20"x18"x8". Grey: 39"x19"x4".
Anyone know anything about the shape of the grey/black tanks in older TKs?

In considering how to increase out grey water tank gallons....
How easy are the grey water tanks to take out? We could take out the ptrap, put in a HEPvO instead and then raise the tank up to the RV gaining about 5" height so that even if we lost some length we have a larger tank capacity.

Jane

Jane

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #1 – July 28, 2019, 09:35:42 am

1. I think so.

2. Looks like it.

3. The specs for your TK should give the tank volumes. In my MB, my grey tank is 35 gallons and my black tank is 26. The way the factory does stuff, I would expect similar ratios in yours, but someone with a TK and the owners manual should be able to tell you.

I would doubt that you could significantly increase the volume of your grey tank or add another. Space is pretty tight underneath. If you found space to hang a second tank, you could use a macerator pump to move grey water from one to the other. Seems like a lot of work, though.

Ken F in WY

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #2 – July 28, 2019, 02:05:24 pm

Ken, Our specs are 13 gal grey tank and I think 25 black. We confirmed that 13 gallons for the grey with a test back when.
The grey tank is the limiting factor for long trips without hookups or dumping nearby. We can do a week fine but not 2 without using a portable tank. I was looking for a way to make it similar to current tank standards. Being able to use the full depth at the same spot as the existing grey tank (minor pipe changes) would allow a grey tank size similar to the current TK - 32 gallons.
A look at a newer TK or maybe a call to the factory would confirm current pipe routing, but leaves the issue how easy it would be to remove that existing grey tank if it was insulated.

There is space to the rear of the wheel well which contains the holder for the dump hose but I didn't confirm a good path for pipes yet. Our grey tank must be an odd shape, even being half the depth of the black tank, to be so small. The smaller depth gives room for the p-trap and the outlet pipe of the fresh water tank (guessing from the fresh water outlet general position but not yet confirmed).
The tank "insulation", if that is what I am seeing, looks almost like it was put on before installation as it doesn't seem to cover that top tank lip or go into the gap above the lip. So it might not be any different removing it than if it was not insulated (bolted into framing maybe since it obviously was not bolted into the LD flooring structure).

Jane

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #3 – July 28, 2019, 08:31:54 pm

Quote from: Jane and Scott - July 28, 2019, 02:05:24 pm

Our specs are 13 gal grey tank and I think 25 black. We confirmed that 13 gallons for the grey with a test back when.
The grey tank is the limiting factor for long trips without hookups or dumping nearby. We can do a week fine but not 2 without using a portable tank. I was looking for a way to make it similar to current tank standards

The tank "insullation", if that is what I am seeing, looks almost like it was put on before installation as it doesn't seem to cover that top tank lip or go into the gap above the lip. So it might not be any different temovibg it than if it was not insulated (bolted into framing maybe since it obviously was not bolted into the LD flooring structure).

If I remember correctly, there is an empty spot in back of the rear axle, large enough for a second tank.
Use a transfer amp to move water from the primary grey tank into the secondary tank.
In our 23.5' FL, our grey fills much faster than the black, to use the total capacity, a water pump, with a pre-filter, moves water from the grey tank and dumps it into the black tank's vent.
Holding tank transfer pump | Flickr

You might be able to mount a second grey tank, with its own dump valve and outlet and, using a transfer pump, to get the capacity you are looking for. Might be easier than removing the Factory tank and starting over.
I would assume that is had been as easy as using a bigger tank, it would have been changed years earlier.
I wouldn't assume that the space is available, room is needed for the plumbing and traps, as well a having enough slope for the horizontal drain pipes to flow efficiently.
LD didn't raise the T/Ks holding tank's capacity until about four years ago, it required changes to the coach.

The insulation is a two-part, spray on foam that was applied after everything under the rig was finished,
It's evil stuff that serves little purpose. It makes it difficult to work on the tanks or around it.

Larry

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #4 – July 28, 2019, 10:56:05 pm

Larry, thanks for the info, I thought the small TK grey tank would have been changed to the larger one long before. I mean even a 25 gallon grey tank would be better than 13 gallons. If it has been that long I would have expected someone to put in a larger grey tank even if they took it to a shop, but I know many people & shops shy away from something unknown. Also, likely they also didn't know about the HEPvO to avoid the space needed by a p-trap as I don't think that knowledge has been around for long.

A 2-part spray foam, that would be more like an epoxy and more like what I am seeing (hard stuff, not like today's typical spray foam).

Yes, there is that space behind the rear axle. The waste hose holder tube (flexible metal hose like a dryer hose) is there now but it would be easy to move that (2 minutes uninstall

). Not a huge space but maybe another 15-20 gallons which would help a lot. I would rather not bother pumping to a second tank regularly, so I want to take another look to see about pipe paths. Plenty of room for downward tilt (only traveling about 7-8 feet), it is the actual pipe space I need to double check.

Larry, I am staying away from using the space between the drive shaft and the steel beam that runs the length of the LD (e.g. from the outside of the LD is the existing waste tanks, then a steel beam, then the drive shaft, then the other steel beam). I am guessing that area is needed for mechanical access, etc. And without double checking, I am not sure of the depth of the steel beam (though if I remember right several things were lower so without losing clearance pipes could be run over/just on the other side of the steel beam). What is your opinion about not touching that space vs using 3" or so of it right next to the steel beam?

Jane

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #5 – July 29, 2019, 12:43:34 am

For what it's worth, if you go to my page on SeeLevel tank gauges and scroll about halfway down, you'll see a picture of a foam-covered tank on my 2003 Lazy Daze, with some foam cut away. It doesn't really look like what you have, Jane--it's puffy, relatively soft and can be ripped off by hand--but then my midbath was 14 years newer than your twin/king, and the factory may have switched materials in that time.

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #6 – July 29, 2019, 08:10:20 pm

Andy, your pictures show what I would have expected. Nothing like what I see. Ours feels more like hard molded plastic - maybe it is....

If I had a way to raise the RV safely, I would just start tearing things apart to see what is what and replace it with similar sizes if I had to. But I have not stumbled upon a way to have a portable "raise up the RV safely so I can work underneath it" device/technique. I welcome any thoughts on how to do this.

A side effect of all this exploring, I am getting over any claustrophobic feelings while crawling around under the RV (ok sliding around on my back on cardboard is more accurate). Even being in places where parts of the RV are touching my torso, I feel like I am in a spacious open area (of course my head it not boxed in - and I am being very curious about everything I am seeing, touching, and recording spots I can't get to with my phone camera).

Jane

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #7 – July 29, 2019, 08:40:10 pm

"But I have not stumbled upon a way to have a portable "raise up the RV safely so I can work underneath it" device/technique."

Most automotive service facilities have hydraulic lifts to raise cars so the techs can work under them. However, those same facilities have very low ceilings, preventing a motor home from being lifted.

I was once using a service shop that had an outdoor lift and my '04 30'IB spent no small amount of time up in the air. So bummer when the owner decided he would no longer use that lift due to liability factors.

The Crown Jewel of a service shop would be one with a maintenance pit (hole in the floor). The shop I use now has one bay constructed that way. Another I'm familiar with is Henderson's Lineup in Grants Pass Oregon.

Most railroad shops have maintenance pits over which they located the rail car to be serviced. I worked in a maintenance "pit" every day of my 18 years with the BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit). You might say I know my pits!

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #8 – July 29, 2019, 10:43:57 pm

Quote from: Jane and Scott - July 29, 2019, 08:10:20 pm

A side effect of all this exploring, I am getting over any claustrophobic feelings while crawling around under the RV (ok sliding around on my back on cardboard is more accurate). Even being in places where parts of the RV are touching my torso, I feel like I am in a spacious open area (of course my head it not boxed in - and I am being very curious about everything I am seeing, touching, and recording spots I can't get to with my phone camera).

Jane

I use this bad boy ....
Amazon.com: Pro-LifT C-6036 36" Plastic Creeper: Gateway

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #9 – July 29, 2019, 10:54:57 pm

Steve, I have seen "rent a bay" places back when. Even came with some basic tool usage. But I don't think they were set up for RVs. I don't know of any place that would let me borrow their bay (they would insist on doing the work).

The creepers are neat, but for storing in your LD and not taking up space (for full timers that move around a lot), cardboard works great.

Jane

Re: Are these insulated waste tanks?

Reply #10 – August 11, 2019, 08:23:34 pm

Quote from: Jane and Scott - July 29, 2019, 08:10:20 pm

If I had a way to raise the RV safely, I would just start tearing things apart to see what is what and replace it with similar sizes if I had to. But I have not stumbled upon a way to have a portable "raise up the RV safely so I can work underneath it" device/technique. I welcome any thoughts on how to do this.

Another delayed response.

Lifting a LD is potentially dangerous and if you have any doubts, have a pro do it.
To lift our LD, at home, where compressed air is available, I use four, 12-ton jack stands, a stack of 2 X 2s and 4X4s tire chocks and the star, a 12-ton, air-powered hydraulic jack.
https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive/jacks-jack-stands/bottle-jacks/12-ton-air-hydraulic-bottle-jack-94487.html
An 8-ton and a 12-ton hydraulic bottle jacks are also used, when needed.

Always lift on a stable surface where the jack doesn't sink into the ground. For on-the-road lifting, two 12 X 12, heavy plywood squares are carried to place under the jacks, when used on soft ground.
I chock all the wheels except the first wheel to be lifted. My driveway is sloped and having the rig leave unexpectedly is a real possibility, chock every wheel still on the ground.
Before starting to lift, if you are planning to remove a wheel(s), break the lugs nuts loose first . Sometimes a front wheel will not come off, with the lug nuts removed, it can stick to the hub. It's a tight fit since the hub centers the wheel (called hub centric) instead of the lug nuts, as is common in passenger cars.
Hub Centric Wheels vs. Lug Centric Wheels | Discount Tire.
If a front wheel sticks, reinstall the lugs nuts and leave them two or three full turns loose, then lower the vehicle to the ground and, with the engine running, use the power steering to rotate the front wheels back and forth. There usually is a bang when the wheel pops free of the hub. The loose lugs nuts prevent the wheel from falling off.

Lifting the rear of an E450 with a hand powered bottle jack is hard work, something I'm not interested in doing anymore with bottle jacks, except in an emergency, the air powered jack has spoiled me. It's a little heavy but easily lifts any corner of the LD.
A mid size air compressor is needed.

Larry

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July 28, 2019, 01:18:45 am

Reply #1 – July 28, 2019, 09:35:42 am

Reply #2 – July 28, 2019, 02:05:24 pm

Reply #3 – July 28, 2019, 08:31:54 pm

Reply #4 – July 28, 2019, 10:56:05 pm

Reply #5 – July 29, 2019, 12:43:34 am

Reply #6 – July 29, 2019, 08:10:20 pm

Reply #7 – July 29, 2019, 08:40:10 pm

Reply #8 – July 29, 2019, 10:43:57 pm

Reply #9 – July 29, 2019, 10:54:57 pm

Reply #10 – August 11, 2019, 08:23:34 pm

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