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Topic: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions (Read 999 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #25 –
Here's what it looks like. I removed the Airstream's wall-mounted TV to make room. I wasn't using it, and would much rather have the heater's warmth!

Fuel consumption specs (per Dickinson) are as follows:

LOW (4,000 BTU)
1 pound   - 5.5 hours
20 pounds - 110 hours

HIGH (5,000 BTU)
1 pound   - 3.9 hours
20 pounds - 78 hours

I almost always run it on low.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #26 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
Here's what it looks like. I removed the Airstream's wall-mounted TV to make room. I wasn't using it, and would much rather have the heater's warmth!
Fuel consumption specs (per Dickinson) are as follows:
LOW (4,000 BTU)
1 pound  - 5.5 hours
HIGH (5,000 BTU)
1 pound  - 3.9 hours
I almost always run it on low.

Nice upgrade and it isn't that big, I can imagine spots in many LDs where one would work. It's surprising how low the fuel consumption is, not too much different than a Wave 6, a heater of similar size.
Considering you don't need to have any vents open, it might be even be a little more efficient, plus there isn't any additional moisture buildup, a consideration when living in a very cold or moist climate. Being marine rated, it's safe enough to leave on at night and it will not wake you cycling. Considering the advantages, I'm surprised they are not used by more boondockers. The installation does not appear to be too difficult and all the needed hardware is marine-rated, so done right, leaks are not an issue.
The slight downside is the fan's electric needs but you have a lot of solar.

You can almost tell how far north on the coast you are by observing the numbs of chimneys pocking through cabin roofs of boats. While rarely seen in the southern waters, many boats in the PNW have marine propane heaters and in Alaska, almost every boat has some type of heater . The interior temperature of a boat is usually the same as the water temperature. Cold water, cold boat. RVs and boats have a lot in common.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #27 –
"The slight downside is the fan's electric needs but you have a lot of solar."

You don't really need much solar to support a fan that draws half an amp. :-)

The Suburban furnace puts out a lot more heat, but it guzzles propane and its blower draws five to six amps. On the other hand, a Wave 3 sips propane and uses no electricity, but it doesn't do a good job of spreading the heat around. The P12000 sips propane, uses about as much electricity as a pair of LED lights, and does a good job of circulating heat. It's a good compromise.

In really cold weather I wouldn't try to heat anything bigger than a Casita with the P12000 as the sole heat source, but it works very well as a supplementary source, or even as the sole source in chilly but not freezing weather. In cold weather I often run the furnace for half an hour or so in the morning to quickly take the chill off, then use the P12000 to stay comfortable throughout the day.

One of these would go nicely on the angled wall in a midbath Lazy Daze. I had a pantry cupboard there in my rig, but in retrospect, I wish I had made the pantry a bit narrower and fit a P12000 alongside it. It would have warmed the rear lounge area nicely.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #28 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
LOW (4,000 BTU)
1 pound   - 5.5 hours
20 pounds - 110 hours

HIGH (5,000 BTU)
1 pound   - 3.9 hours
20 pounds - 78 hours

Andy, I wonder if these BTUs quoted are actually INPUT. My calc uses 21,600 BTU / lb propane, so 1 lb in a 5.5 hr burn would be 3927 BTU/hr. Even assuming approximations in their figures, this is about 100% efficiency, yet some heat must be going up the vertical stack. Have you measured air temperature at the exit? I also notice in the videos I found that the flame can turn very yellow, which would indicate incomplete combustion. Ideally, for any heater or furnace with a heat exchanger, you would expect a loss of heat, since heat is required to vent the exhaust gasses out a vertical stack.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #29 –
My last question, whether it could hint to defect that the Kidde CO monitor shows never more than a "0" CO ppm level, got somehow lost. I conducted another test today in a closed and unventilated room in my house, and the monitor showed after 4 1/2 hours again just 0 ppm. I then called Kidde, and the person I talked to was telling me - kind of vague - that the results from this test (and also from my bathroom test described before) could be normal.

However, she also offered me immediately ("If it makes you feel better...") to send me a new unit, and I gladly accepted that offer. I will conduct the same tests again with the new unit. Who knows, maybe the Buddy heater produces actually almost no carbon monoxide...

By the way - the Buddy heater ran for 4:38 hours on low (4000 BTU) with a fresh 1 lb bottle of propane. That is considerably less than the 6 hours Mr. Heater claims but it is also not bad and possibly not much different than the real life consumption of Wave heaters or the Dickinson heater. Is it actually possible to measure the real life fuel consumption of these heaters?

Klaus
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #30 –
Andy posted the consumption of the Dickinson. The Wave heaters are nearly 100% efficient:

21,600 Btu/lb for propane, so for 6000 Btu/hr,  21600/6000 = 3.6 hr/lb. For 3000 Btu/hr, 7.2 hr/lb.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #31 –
Yes, I know. However, that are the numbers published by the manufacturers and not measured real life numbers.

If we would go only with manufactures numbers the Portable Buddy Heater would be the frontrunner with 24,000 BTU/lb when set to 4000 BTU/hr and even 27,000 BTU/lb when set to 9000 BTH/hr.

I think it is likely that Wave and Dickinson beautify the fuel consumption of their devices in a similar way than Mr. Heater. That's why I asked whether the consumption of Wave and Dickinson heaters can be (and have been) actually measured in real life.

Klaus
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #32 –
21,600 Btu/lb is not a manufacturer's number. That IS the amount of energy stored in a pound of propane. This is science, not hype. Any other figure you see is incorrect. A true cat heater, such as the Olympians, burn at a very low temperature, and produce no CO because all the carbon has been consumed as CO2. Thus, all the fuel is consumed to produce heat energy.

A heater which consumes 4000 Btu/hr at 100% efficiency, i.e. emitting 4000 Btu/hr of heat, would run for 21,600/4000 = 5.4 hrs on a pound of propane.

Your Buddy heater running for 4.63 hrs (4:38) on a pound of propane would have consumed 21,600 / 4.63 = 4665 Btu/hr. If it was actually producing 4000 Btu/hr of heat, then its efficiency is 4000 / 4665 = 0.86, or 86%.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #33 –
Thanks for the clarification. Mr. Heater claims that their 4000/9000 BTU Buddy heater can run with a 1 lb bottle of propane on the low setting for 6 hours and on the high setting for 3 hours. That is even theoretically impossible, right?

More for the fun of it I have sent an inquiry to them to explain this to me.
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #34 –
I'll  be interested to see what you find here. The chemistry of burning propane with oxygen still only yields water, CO2, and heat. Unless the combustion is incomplete for some reason, no carbon monoxide should be produced, whether it is a Buddy heater, a Wave, or some other brand. They do burn O2, so some caution is advised and will fog interior windows unless a window is cracked for a draft. We will continue enjoying the heat from our Buddy heater.
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #35 –
CO is produced when the combustion process occurs too quickly for the oxygen supply to keep up. Most burners have a relatively small combustion surface, which limits the area of exposure to oxygen flow. Cat heaters disperse the fuel through a large surface area pad infused with platinum threads, which catalyze a lower temperature burn, and this combination allows sufficient oxygen to reach the combustion so it is completely oxygenated. Thus, virtually no CO nor unburned fuel residue products.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #36 –
"My calc uses 21,600 BTU / lb propane, so 1 lb in a 5.5 hr burn would be 3927 BTU/hr."

Which makes it sound as if Dickinson is quoting input figures, I agree. Obviously the P12000 is not 100% efficient although the coaxial stovepipe arrangement that preheats incoming air probably makes it about as efficient as a vented heater can be.

"I conducted another test today in a closed and unventilated room in my house, and the monitor showed after 4 1/2 hours again just 0 ppm."

Just my opinion: that doesn't sound right. I'm glad they are sending you another unit. Let us know how it tests out.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #37 –
Thanks Steve,
Interesting answer.  It sounds like you are saying that combustion in the buddy heater is inefficient and can produce CO if more fuel is provided than the surface can efficiently burn.  I wonder if the problem can be mitigated with the buddy heater by not running it at its maximum heat.
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #38 –
CO issues aside, whichever "supplemental" heater one is using is a good deal more efficient than the furnace, which sucks propane and battery power and blows about 60% of the heat produced out the outside vent.

YMMV, as always.
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #39 –
Quote from: Blueox25  - 
It sounds like you are saying that combustion in the buddy heater is inefficient and can produce CO if more fuel is provided than the surface can efficiently burn.  I wonder if the problem can be mitigated with the buddy heater by not running it at its maximum heat.

It seems plausible, but without the catalyst (which reduces the energy needed to initiate combustion, thus slowwwwing down the burn) combustion will always be incomplete, allowing some CO. Another advantage of the low temperature burn of the cat heater is it occurs below the ignition temperature of most items which might come in close contact. Perhaps someone has tested the Buddy for CO output.

Andy, additional temperature radiation from the flue might be significant - if the exhaust is the outside tube. I would think for safety reasons it would be the inside tube? Still, it helps...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
 
Re: Wave Catalytic Heater and Mr. Heater Discussions
Reply #40 –
The forced-air furnace we replaced the old one with at our cabin uses 4" PVC pipe run at a slight upward angle out the side of the house as a 'flue', and condensate drips back down the tube to the furnace where it runs out a 3/4" pvc pipe at a slight downward angle out the wall to drip on the ground. This furnace is >96% efficient. I just wonder why there seems to be nothing similar for RV use?

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit