Converter questions September 26, 2018, 04:22:51 pm New (for me) 1987 LD, 22ft rear bath Class C . I have a fan that goes on and off at whim. It has no relation to the heating thermostat. It runs a little warm but not like heat. Though it does seem to run when the rv is just slightly cold. Today I drove for a little while running fridge on propane for the first time. Since I replugged in, fan has been running for nearly an hour now. Having trouble posting a pic , its in the cabinet back of the kitchen, low to floor, facing toward living area.If anyone knows, thanks a bunch!
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #1 – September 26, 2018, 05:34:45 pm Is it inside the Power Center? It's the box containing the circuit breakers and fuses.In the bottom of the Power Center is the converter that charges the battery .The converter has a cooling fan that is thermostatically controlled.That's my guess.Larry
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #2 – September 26, 2018, 07:06:48 pm Thank you Larry. It is the fan underneath the fuse box for mostly kitchen , air , fridge- yes power converter/battery charger. I'm usually plugged in and only took rv out for an hour today unplugged. I used the water pump unplugged for 15 min to flush interior hoses . I plugged back in and systems normal. However the fan has been running for over 3 hours now, also runs occasionally even when plugged in. Is this unusual, is there something I should check to wonder why the converter would still be running when plugged in- to need the fan to cool? Battery says good, fridge is on AC. Fan has never run this long. Quick edit: when I left , nothing in unit was on. Also, are you supposed to shut the 30amp fuse box switch to 'off' when unplugged? I didn't when I moved it. Sorry if I'm a giant dum dum right now. My manual is crap, and jibberish to me right now on many things. Thanks you!
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #3 – September 26, 2018, 08:06:11 pm The converter is powered whenever the generator is running or when connected to shore power. It operates on 120-VAC power.The refrigerator's control board and other appliances run on 12-volts all the time, even when plugged in.. The converter keeps the battery fully charged.Depending on the converter, it may run all the time or only when it is supplying 12-volt power in quantity.It might be defective, it could 30 years old, if it has never been replaced.Larry
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #4 – September 26, 2018, 08:11:55 pm I think converter is fine because house batteries show good, but fan running so long? Normal, not normal? Thanks again.
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #5 – September 26, 2018, 08:34:04 pm A suggestion: check the input screen of the converter fan to see if there is a build-up of dust, dirt, animal hair, grease, and any other grubbies; if the screen is dirty/clogged, the fan may work harder/run more. Be sure to have the 120VAC power disconnected when working with the converter. 1 Likes
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #6 – September 26, 2018, 08:38:03 pm Thanks again guys. Doing some internet research, cleaning is first option for sure, and Thank You for the -disconnect Electric! before working on the Fan, that could have been an easy oversight. Much Appreciated.
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #7 – September 26, 2018, 08:52:00 pm Quote from: zentaos-Patricia - September 26, 2018, 08:11:55 pmI think converter is fine because house batteries show good...If you are assuming the batteries are good because the readout over the stove says so, be aware that indicator is not reliable. The batteries should be tested directly with a voltmeter when NOT plugged in for at least an hour. If you have a shorted cell, the converter will be working overtime trying to charge the other 5 cells to 13.6 Volts.Steve
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #8 – September 26, 2018, 11:12:10 pm Agreed on that. I shut everything down for two hrs. to cool. After start-up- same same issue. Leads me to believe it comes from the batteries since I drove it today after six weeks not going barely anywhere. I've been living in it for 3 weeks, not moving with no issues. It was dusk when I realized I had a problem so tomorrow will check battery power and connections. I did clean the fan and housing but wasn't bad, not enough to overheat. Will shut down for the night and look at batteries in the AM. Thanks again. I bought this LD on a sweet deal and did some repairs but have been amazed living in it that nothing ever seemed to go wrong with it, haha!
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #9 – September 27, 2018, 08:19:23 pm Hi Guys,Took batteries out to trickle charge. The power converter is on all the time when plugged in, no batteries in unit. The inside switch says refrigerator/12v power converter. If I shut either of these off the converter goes off but so does the fridge. The converter metal holding mechanism seems quite hot to me. It appears my fridge is connected to the power converter and so they can't to be shut off independently. If I shut the one off the fridge also goes out. I m not sure it's ok for the converter to be on all the time, even though the fan hasn't turned on yet. The wires aren't hot, but I live in it, so I'm worried if the converter is on 24/7 to power the fridge and just keeps getting hotter. I cant find any advice by searching on google. Thanks for any advise you may have.
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #10 – September 28, 2018, 01:40:34 am The converter is designed be left on all the time, when the generator or shore power is providing power.The refrigerator receives it 12-volt power normally from the battery but if it is disconnected and the converter is powered up, the refrigerator will continue running on the converter's output. If you have solar, and the sun is out, the same would happen if the converter was also disconnected.Since the cooling fan doesn't seem to be working correctly, your converter may have a defective thermostatic switch, used for controlling the cooling fan. I doubt if it is worth the effort to try fixing.Your 1987 LD has the old school 'dumb' converter, known for either over or under charging the battery.. Modern converters are computer controlled or 'smart' and do a better job of charging the battery.Might consider replacing your 30 year old converter, it has served its time and may be in need of retirement.Larry
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #11 – September 28, 2018, 02:28:38 am Quote from: zentaos-Patricia - September 27, 2018, 08:19:23 pmHi Guys,Took batteries out to trickle charge. The power converter is on all the time when plugged in, no batteries in unit. The inside switch says refrigerator/12v power converter.If you have the batteries out, you need a voltmeter to test their voltage WITHOUT charging them for at least an hour. They should read at least 6V each, or they are bad.The converter has three functions:1) It distributes the 12V from the batteries to all the 12V needs of the coach, INCLUDING the refrigerator controls.2) When plugged in, it supplies the 12V to the coach, even if the batteries are missing, and supplies a charging current to them if they are installed.3) When plugged it, it distributes the 120 VAC to all the outlets, the roof AC, the refrigerator, and the microwave, if installed.Steve
Re: A mystery fan? built into unit, runs automatically, not thermostat related. Reply #12 – September 28, 2018, 09:32:10 am Ok everyone - I am getting confused by the replies and I know what the power center is about. This is a longer post to clarify term, ask the group a question, ask Patricia a question, and share concerns about old rig electrical issues.To clarify terms: Power center - the is the entire thing - typically one or two boxes/enclosures depending on the original installation and any ad lbs.Ac/dc distribution panel. This is where power comes in from battery/shore power including outlets at home or Rv parks, or your generator. The ac (120v) distribution - typically has breakers. The dc (12v) - typically has fuses. Converter/Charger - can be inside the main power center enclosure or in a separate box. This unit does two jobs. It uses shore/generator power to charge your batteries (newer solar typically has its own charger but older solar might be word directly to your battery or into the power center somewhere).If you are using shore power/generator it converts some of the 120v to 12v (and put it into the distribution panel) to run your appliances that need dc (refrigerator controls, water pump, furnace fan, any 12v outlets and lights and fans).So if you are plugged into shore/using generator 120v is being converted to 12v and your charger/converter is running and depending on the model the fan runs when it needs to be cooled or runs all the time.Question to Steve/Larry/Others - I thought that the converter (120v to 12v always runs if on 120v power regardless if batteries are there or not. 12v then comes only from the converter not the batteries. Seems that way in our rig with our new smart converter/Charger. Or does it depend if you have a newer smart one vs the old Not smart ones?Patricia, You may also have an ATS (automatic transfer switch used to ensure you do not have both generator and shore power flowing into your power center at the same time). It might be a separate box or it might be integrated into your power center and some LD owners use a manual switch to control this as some like Larry have see the ats fail).You may have a solar charger - a smart one it is newer. The original old one in our LD did not have one, instead wired straight into the battery/power center and previous to us it has fried one set of batteries (they expanded which told me they might have been on their way to exploding).You may have an inverter - takes 12v from battery and changes it to 120v. This can be a small one or a whole coach one. Patricia, a big question that others have indicated makes a difference but I don’t think I saw your reply:What is the model of your power center and your converter/Charger. Often the old power center and distribution panel are used and just the Charger/converter upgraded, so pictures help or if you see a separate model number for the converter. The charger/converter might be on the main power center enclosure or might be in a separate box.The power center cover can be taken off easily (disconnect all power including battery first). Pictures help if you can take them. If you turn of your main breaker inside your power center (typically a 30 amp in a lazydaze but some are different) you are also turning off your converter/Charger and it’s fan.If it is all in one enclosure, the converter charger is typically wired into a breaker (not labeled correctly in our distribution panel). If it is a separate box it might be plugged into an outlet that is part of the power center. But either way it runs on 120v.Turning that main power breaker off when not using the RV might be a good idea but if you turn it off when using it it will be the same as if you are boondocking with no shore power or generator - you have no 120v appliances/outlets, only 12v dc ones (fridge can run this way typically using propane). The new smart charger/converters will charge your batteries in a much better way than the older models (which would under or over charge and reduce the life of your batteries or even kill them in a potentially dangerous way). Progressive Dynamic models are very popular - search for power center / Charger / converter / progressive dynamics to learn more than you want to - both in this forum and others.Anything hot in an electrical system concerns me. The converter/Charger itself being hot is one concern but having a wiring problem that creates heat on a cover or breaker or metal/wood around the wiring concerns me more.We had an 89 power center (upgraded by original owners to a swiffy model when it was bought).The breakers got warm and were loose. Replacing this was on my todo list (it was a long list) and one night I smelled a burning smell and taking out the loose breakers showed charred spots where they connected to the distribution panel. Not good - replaced the breakers right away but they were still loose. New power center including new distribution panel went in shortly after that.We also got a new battery monitor - a must to really know what is going on with your batteries. We choose progressive dynamics because of the Bluetooth feature but there are a few very good ones out there.We had all sorts of interesting wiring and had to pull the entire power center to even see it all - all of it 1990 installed - and we spent time tracing wires and still have two sets we didn’t reconnect yet (we believe some were from our not currently working solar panels and the others were to charge the cab battery but so many mystery wires there we need a day just to trace those ones). Post a picture and model information and People will be able to help a lot more.Side note: checking all electrical connections is on many people’s yearly checklist - including the power center, your shore plug, and your wiring behind outlets - I have read a couple posts about burning outlet wire issues) . An older rig that was used and bounced around a lot could have all sorts of things off electrically. We had switches that sometime worked (eg loose wiring somewhere) and outlets that would not hold a plug (fell right out or worse fell out a little so the metal prongs full of 120v were exposed). These are also concern areas for me. (Less for 12v than 120v but I want them all fixed up).Jane
Re: Converter questions Reply #13 – September 28, 2018, 06:01:44 pm Quote from: JandS2 - September 28, 2018, 09:32:10 amQuestion to Steve/Larry/Others - I thought that the converter (120v to 12v always runs if on 120v power regardless if batteries are there or not. 12v then comes only from the converter not the batteries. Seems that way in our rig with our new smart converter/Charger. Or does it depend if you have a newer smart one vs the old Not smart ones?JaneJane, in LD models, what is referred to as the 'converter' comes as a single unit which includes the 120VAC breakers and distribution system, a 12V power supply and battery charger powered by the 120 VAC through a breaker, and a 12V distribution panel with fuses. If there is a generator, a transfer switch is included, transparently to the user.However, it is a mistake to assume the converter supplies the 12V to power everything when connected to shorepower or running the generator. While it DOES supply 12V (actually typically 13.2V), auxiliary systems may actually supply power too, such as a solar array, the vehicle alternator, (or the batteries), and the highest voltage source will actually supply the d.c. power to the distribution panel and to charge the batteries. In fact, when a large current is needed, say to power a big inverter for a short time, it is the source with the highest current capacity which supplies the bulk of the power, and this would be the batteries. In other words, the converter is only one of many sources of 12V power, and the others are NOT disconnected when the converter is running. You can, in fact, flip off the circuit breaker for the converter, and all the 12V power will come from those other sources, while still retaining 120VAC where needed. This is a common practice when powering the roof air conditioner from an underrated shore power connection.Steve
Re: Converter questions Reply #14 – September 28, 2018, 06:29:50 pm Steve, Larry, Joan: Thanks for your informative replies to Patricia and Jane's comments/questions. The electrical/converter/power supply systems are probably the hardest for us non-techies to understand. These are the kinds of threads I bookmark for future reference - just in case.Chris 3 Likes
Re: Converter questions Reply #15 – September 28, 2018, 06:56:26 pm Chris, Larry and Steve (and several others) are “professional grade” techies; I’m still at “apprentice” status! 😉 2 Likes
Re: Converter questions Reply #16 – September 29, 2018, 04:23:45 pm Quote from: Joan - September 28, 2018, 06:56:26 pmChris, Larry and Steve (and several others) are “professional grade” techies; I’m still at “apprentice” status! 😉Methinks the lady doth protest too much! 😉 — Jon 1 Likes
Re: Converter questions Reply #17 – September 30, 2018, 10:57:08 pm Hi guys- Thank you for everything! This is how it has gone So far in the last 4 days. 1: The coach batteries were old- 2012 , low on water. Removed, water filled, trickle charged and put back into the unit, only because in my town I cannot buy new Golf cart batteries here -2= 6v synced Interstate Batteries. I bought some new ones online but have to drive 100 miles to get them. Will do this Thursday. 2: I didn't understand that the power converter on Shore Power stayed on all the time, and without batteries works hard, and the heat sink was always too hot, and without battery , the fan would not go on to cool. I put the old batteries in, holding charge over hours, now the fan works, but the heat sink still gets WAY too hot IMO (which is an uneducated opinion or knowledge) until the fan goes on. I have No IDEA why the fan would only work if batteries were in the unit. But I admit Im utterly dumb at this.3. Certainly -Old Coach batteries were/are the beginning of the problem. A very old 'power converter' doesn't help but might be functioning exactly the way it's supposed to. Don't love the heat sink overheating though on just a few coach lights for a few hours. Right now, until I get new coach batteries , I shut down the converter except at night when I need lights, run the fridge on propane, and in 4 days will have new batteries and see where this goes. I really want to apologize for taking up peoples time, when I am so new. I really feel like a big dumbass. 1 Likes
Re: Converter questions Reply #18 – September 30, 2018, 11:08:14 pm Quote from: zentaos-Patricia - September 30, 2018, 10:57:08 pmHi guys- Thank you for everything! This is how it has gone So far in the last 4 days. 1: The coach batteries were old- 2012 , low on water. Removed, water filled, trickle charged and put back into the unit, only because in my town I cannot buy new Golf cart batteries here -2= 6v synced Interstate Batteries. I bought some new ones online but have to drive 100 miles to get them. Will do this Thursday. 2: I didn't understand that the power converter on Shore Power stayed on all the time, and without batteries works hard, and the heat sink was always too hot, and without battery , the fan would not go on to cool. I put the old batteries in, holding charge over hours, now the fan works, but the heat sink still gets WAY too hot IMO (which is an uneducated opinion or knowledge) until the fan goes on. I have No IDEA why the fan would only work if batteries were in the unit. But I admit Im utterly dumb at this.3. Certainly -Old Coach batteries were/are the beginning of the problem. A very old 'power converter' doesn't help but might be functioning exactly the way it's supposed to. Don't love the heat sink overheating though on just a few coach lights for a few hours. Right now, until I get new coach batteries , I shut down the converter except at night when I need lights, run the fridge on propane, and in 4 days will have new batteries and see where this goes. I really want to apologize for taking up peoples time, when I am so new. I really feel like a big dumbass. "I really want to apologize for taking up peoples time, when I am so new"Patricia, we all started somewhere with learning about our Lazy Dazes ins and outs. Your problems may be someone else's someday, so others will learn from your travails. Thanks for sharing.Chris 1 Likes
Re: Converter questions Reply #19 – October 01, 2018, 01:22:02 am Patricia,Switching your lights to led can make a big difference in battery use. The refrigerator circuit boards, water pump, and fan for heater all use dc12 also. I think I have that list right - someone will correct me if I missed something.Search in the forum and you willfind some great links to replacement bulbs others have used (or put in a new fixture when they wanted to change the look).No questions are dumb, I had extensive experience remodeling houses including complete plumbing and electrical systems but RVs are different - part car and part house and part other. I sure felt real dumb those first few months and I am stil a beginner in some systems.We had a power center that the original owner had put in right after they bought it with wiring patterns not used now. So it was all odd and nobody knew that power center (obsolete a long time ago). I would take picture of components and say - what is that? Amazingly there is a ton of knowledge in this forum and at least a couple people had good knowlege / guesses no matter what odd stuff Inthtrw our in the forum.JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Re: Converter questions Reply #20 – October 01, 2018, 03:31:29 am Hi Patricia. The people here love to help, and reviewing others problems helps refresh some of the problems that are common, and also not common ones. The converter you have is working hard to charge your batteries. Especially old ones may not take a charge well, so the converter is trying anyway. The older tech converters will get hotter than the newer ones. I'm not sure what 'heat sink you are referring to (pictures help). Anything over say 130 degrees F. with the fan running may be an issue, but the new batteries could solve that problem. When you measure the voltage on the batteries you have now, is the voltage over about 14.5 volts?. When unplugged for an hour or so, do your lights stay fairly bright. The batteries should measure about 12.6 volts at that time. anything under 11.2 volts in just an hour, definitely time for new batteries. Any 6 volt deep cycle batteries that fit, that is about the same size as the ones you have can work. I buy mine at Costco, Interstate brand. Sam's club, I hear, have them also, and some Wal-Mart too (maybe other brands). RonB
Re: Converter questions Reply #21 – October 01, 2018, 01:11:05 pm Quote from: zentaos-Patricia - September 30, 2018, 10:57:08 pm2: I didn't understand that the power converter on Shore Power stayed on all the time, and without batteries works hard, and the heat sink was always too hot, and without battery , the fan would not go on to cool. I put the old batteries in, holding charge over hours, now the fan works, but the heat sink still gets WAY too hot IMO (which is an uneducated opinion or knowledge) until the fan goes on. I have No IDEA why the fan would only work if batteries were in the unit. But I admit Im utterly dumb at this.The fan will come on when the heat sink gets above the set temperature, and your tests show that this is when the batteries are installed. This probably means the batteries are bad, because good, fully charged batteries take very little power to keep them there.The heat sink is hot because it is designed to absorb as much heat as possible from the circuitry, and dissipate it into the air. When more heat is going to the heat sink than it can dissipate with normal air convection, its temperature will rise to the point where it will turn on the fan as an assist. Normal conditions would have the fan come on rarely, but the heat sink may remain pretty warm. That is how it works.Steve
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