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Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #25 –
Just an update:  We had a great time visiting the Lazy Daze factory.  Todd answered all of our questions, took us on on a little tour through the assembly area, and left us alone to let everything soak in.  There were two LDs in the show area, the 27' MB and a 27' rear bath.  We also took a quick look inside a 24' in the assembly area.  I stretched out on one of the rear couches in the MB and found it long enough to comfortably fit my 6'2" frame, so the issue of sleeping arrangements was settled.  We were already performing assumptive closes on ourselves by the time we left...what color should we choose, ultraleather yay or nay, the off-menu hood mounted minigun, etc.

But.  The seat belt issue continues to trouble us.  As many of you mentioned, while there are a lot of seat belts, it's the seats themselves that are problematic.  I asked Todd about how the belts were attached so he showed me the anchor design--no problem there.  But the seats...hmmm.  As Larry W pointed out, the dinette seat back is short and wouldn't provide protection from whiplash.  Also discouraging was the fact that the table can't be easily removed.  Since a forward facing dinette passenger wouldn't be wearing a shoulder belt, the table represents a potentially and literally serious headache during a frontal impact.

Well hell.  We really liked the layout of the MB and the airiness of the RB, but we can't combine both attributes so our preference leans toward the MB.  The fit and finish was great.  Todd even dissuaded us from various options that in his opinion were unnecessary (sorry Todd, but I'm sticking with the minigun).  We're still chewing on the seatbelt issue, though.  Rich made some good points about risk, which is a constant topic with us motorcyclists.  We do have a truck so a trailer might be an alternative, though I've never been a fan of trailers.  And what's not to like about a Prevost other than the price and 45' of aircraft carrier parallel parking fun.  Decisions, decisions.
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #26 –
Cousin Eddie, I understand your wanting to be safe as you can be with the seat back issue.  You mentioned a Prevost in your post, but my belief is a Class C is much safer than a Class A, especially the cheaper ones.  With the C, you get a big engine up front to protect you from frontal crashes, driver and passenger air-bags, and two cab doors in addition to the coach door to make exiting the coach quicker if necessary.

As an ex-motorcyclist myself, I think you are exposing yourself to more risk riding your bike, than you would driving an LD.  I had many more "close calls" and near-misses on my bike than anything else I've driven including lights & siren in a fire engine.

All any of us can do is to make sure we prepare and do things to minimize risk.  For example, I won't drive the LD at night.  My eyes are fine with glasses, but still "older" than many.  I developed an aversion to night driving when coming home one night, in our car, and hitting a deer that just popped out of some bushes.  Little time to react, result dead deer and $2000 damage to the car.  I believe that if it was daylight, I might have had another second or so to react and avoid the accident.

The point is the only thing we can do is try to minimize the probability of stuff happening.  We can't eliminate risk whether in a car, trailer, Prevost, LD, or locked-up in our house.  Good luck with your selection process and best wishes.
2011 MB
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #27 –
If one could configure interior along the lines of the Front Lounge models, a sliding ambulance-style jumpseat could provide extra approved central seating that could slide and pivot into lounge-area seating. The illustrated version is configured to sit over a wheelwell in an ambulance, but track could also be very low (almost, but not quite flush) and seat slightly raised.  3-4 feet of slide, and 8-position pivot. Price unknown, of course...

EVS Ltd. - Base Options
2000 Front Lounge
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #28 –
Quote from: Cousin Eddie  - 
... the off-menu hood mounted minigun, etc. ...
  Decisions, decisions.
Drop the minigun, go for the 25mm Bushmaster - it's good for Sasquatch, Yeti & SoCal Freeways.  :)
joel
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #29 –
Quote from: Chip Chester  - 
If one could configure interior along the lines of the Front Lounge models, a sliding ambulance-style jumpseat could provide extra approved central seating that could slide and pivot into lounge-area seating. The illustrated version is configured to sit over a wheelwell in an ambulance, but track could also be very low (almost, but not quite flush) and seat slightly raised.  3-4 feet of slide, and 8-position pivot. Price unknown, of course...

EVS Ltd. - Base Options
Those seats are very interesting.  Thanks.  I have to believe there's a compromise or doable modification would work.
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #30 –
Greeting, is there any way you could create a headrest with a board, foam and a cover bolted to the wall behind the passenger side seat to help with the whip lash issue for someone riding at the table but looking backwards? It sounds as if the lap belt is safely fixed, not sure what might be available to modify it to add a shoulder belt. It seems a shame not to get a LD Because of this issue. I would suspect that a to wable trailer might be less safe overall because they are generally so lightly constructed to save weight. Just wondering.
2015 MB
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #31 –
In a Mid-Bath, the dinette table can removed, you do so when converting the dinette into a bed.
Instead of trying to make the rear dinette bench safer, consider removing it and installing an auto bucket seat.
It wouldn't have a shoulder belt, due to the lack of secure place to install the upper mount but would supply some whiplash protection.

A better choice might be the ambulance seat or similar, with the built in seat and shoulder belt.
It would require designing a rigid mount to the floor, since all stress in a crash will be transmitted through the seat into the floor.
You might be able to talk Steve into not screwing the rear bench into the structure, so it could be easily removed for this modification but retained for a future change back to stock, if and when the rig is sold.

This would be a much more comfortable seat.
EVS Ltd. - 17803E Attendant Seat

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #32 –
Quote from: SilverFox  - 
Greeting, is there any way you could create a headrest with a board, foam and a cover bolted to the wall behind the passenger side seat to help with the whip lash issue for someone riding at the table but looking backwards? It sounds as if the lap belt is safely fixed, not sure what might be available to modify it to add a shoulder belt. It seems a shame not to get a LD Because of this issue. I would suspect that a to wable trailer might be less safe overall because they are generally so lightly constructed to save weight. Just wondering.

Hmmm, that's not a bad idea, and one I hadn't thought of.  I agree, it would be shame to pass on an LD!  :'(

Quote from: Larry W  - 
In a Mid-Bath, the dinette table can removed, you do so when converting the dinette into a bed.
Instead of trying to make the rear dinette bench safer, consider removing it and installing an auto bucket seat.
It wouldn't have a shoulder belt, due to the lack of secure place to install the upper mount but would supply some whiplash protection.

A better choice might be the ambulance seat or similar, with the built in seat and shoulder belt.
It would require designing a rigid mount to the floor, since all stress in a crash will be transmitted through the seat into the floor.
You might be able to talk Steve into not screwing the rear bench into the structure, so it could be easily removed for this modification but retained for a future change back to stock, if and when the rig is sold.

This would be a much more comfortable seat.
EVS Ltd. - 17803E Attendant Seat

When we were looking at the models I was wondering if I could modify the dinette area to accommodate a DOT seat and seatbelt.  One idea would be to remove the forward facing dinette bench and simply install an ISRI RV seat.  An ambulance seat is an interesting possibility.  It would all come down to dimensions and engineering the anchor directly to a robust portion of the frame.  While we would lose the fourth spot at the table, it isn't indispensable real estate for the three of us.
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #33 –
Securely installing a DOT seat, with a built in should belt, would be the safest and probably the most comfortable option.
The peace of mind would be worth the cost.
It will be interesting to see how this works out, I don't remember anyone on the forum installing an rear, engineered passenger seat before.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #34 –
It would be interesting to measure up a removable minivan/suv 3rd row seat, in relation to a standard dinette 'couch'. The type of seat I'm thinking about would be designed to mount on a flat floor of the minivan/SUV (probably with latches) and seat two with seat-attached belts. I haven't owned a minivan or small SUV in years, so I'm not really able to call out an appropriate candidate, but it seems there would be little difference between said seat and a dinette bench except for three key points: upholstery, under-seat storage, and the support ledge/cushion inventory allowing for bed conversion.  Definitely not small matters, but the automotive seat would suffice for safety's sake if properly through-bolted with reinforcing plates and grade 8 hardware, etc.  The clear downsides would be that if a coach needs long-term safe seating for more than two, it also needs sleeping quarters for more than two. Lack of quick and comfortable dinette conversion would be a deal-killer for most.  Plus, doing this with DOT-rated seats doesn't automatically make it a DOT-approved thing, especially in DIY land. 

Dinette seating/bed conversion is a staple in the RV world.  I'm surprised there's not a modular, DOT-rated dinette frame product that all the mfg's use.  But if they did their research DOT regs may also result in doing away with the table while underway.

Automobile rules don't apply.  You can Google up DOT, RV mfg's and RIVA specs.  Most state laws only cover the front seat passengers, and kids seats.  But remember, not many school bus seat belts out there, either. Doesn't mean it's right though.
2000 Front Lounge
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #35 –
I haven't been closely following this thread recently, but something popped into my head from about ten years ago when my husband was almost completely paralyzed and confined to a wheel chair.  I couldn't get him into our car to go to the Cancer Clinic for treatments, so the local minibus came to our door, and for a reasonable fee, wheeled him and his chair directly onto the bus via a ramp.  Once inside the bus, his wheelchair was locked down to the floor with some sort of clamps.

I did not take note of how this was done, but presume that it was within some strict code since it was public transportation.

I'm wondering if a Lazy Daze model that encompasses two chairs would be able to somehow use this procedure to lock down an appropriate chair (or two) for accommodating additional passengers.  Maybe a visit to a local bus company that provides such services would be enlightening.

Class B units frequently have one or two second row seating with regulation seat belts, so maybe something like that could be rigged in a Lazy Daze that accommodates two barrel chairs as standard.  I'm envisioning regulation captain's chairs with appropriate safety features somehow integrated into the passenger side, with the ability to swing around and lock in place for travel, yet be able to face the aisle when parked.

Clearly I have no direct knowledge here; just thoughts.  Maybe a visit to a handicapped equipment emporium might shed some light on possibilities.  Clearly there are handicapped folks who are transported from place to place in safety, so maybe those same tactics are available for just regular use.

   Virtual hugs,

   Judie
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #36 –
We had a wheelchair van for my MIL for awhile.  The main attachment points are installed just like LDs are (and also just like my pre-seatbelt sports car) with high-grade bolts thru the floor and generous backup plates behind them, acting as washers. This is what the seatbelts and chair tie-down points are attached to.  But there was also a seatbelt that went around the chair occupant.

Higher-end systems involved a hefty locating pin on the base of the chair, and an equally-hefty clamping mechanism that immobilized the chair. But there's still an occupant seatbelt.

On edit: Neither of those two setups assume the wheelchair is a significant part of the safety equation.  The belt is fastened to the floor, not the wheelchair. Even in my pre-safety-days sports car, the seat itself is rather flimsy -- much like a short wheelchair in construction.  Two 1/4" bolts in shear hold it in place, and it can tilt up easily. The belt, however, holds the occupant and the seat to the floor.
End of edit...

Neither system is as good as starting with a well-designed automobile seat. In that light, the standard LD dinette is about the same as a wheelchair setup. Legal, but less safe.
2000 Front Lounge
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #37 –
Hi there Cousin Eddie!
I would hate for a seat issue to become a deal breaker for you.
I gather your position on the safety/seatbelt issue and how it could troublesome. I also applaud your concern for your daughter's safety!
That being said, though, I'm pretty much the complete opposite. Have any of your family members ever experience whiplash from an accident? I'm an excellent driver. I learned early on the value of defensive driving. I was also a long haul semi driver for 5 years. I drove from Los Angeles to Eugene, Oregon, then over to Bend, Oregon before heading south back to LA. I did that every week. I was over the California grapevine, a very dangerous downhill grade limited to 40 mph for semis. NOT 41, but 40! I also drove through pea soup Tule fog in the valley of central California for more hours than I care to remember. In Oregon, there were 3 different mountain passes I would drive up an over in the dead of winter in extreme conditions of ice and snow. I can tell you that there is NOTHING driving any kind of vehicle that will scare you worse than coming down off a mountain pass during a winter storm and looking in your rearview to see the back end of the trailer starting to drift sideways because it lost traction.
In all my 52 years of driving, I've only been in one accident! I was rear-ended in Denver, Colorado while driving my F150 Ford PU while stopped behind traffic at a stop sign. The guy who hit me was in a 4 door sedan doing about 35mph. He hit me with such force that he knocked my truck up in the air and it came down on top of his car. The cop on the scene had me put it in 4 wheel drive and literally drive off his car. It was totaled. Believe it or not, everyone laughed at the situation. Not only did I come out of that unscathed, but I don't remember my head even snapping back at all, let alone whiplash.
My point of all the above is DEFENSIVE driving. I cannot emphasize this enough. Many people say they do, but not really. Or maybe just "most" of the time. IMO, there are 4 types of drivers....An excellent driver like myself who always is anticipating their surroundings and other vehicle's actions. The second I start to become fatigued or distracted, I stop. A good driver who drives defensively but can become distracted. An average driver who obeys the traffic laws while driving from A to B. And lastly, a bad driver. They are focused on themselves and assume any other vehicles around are going to do the right thing. My niece falls into that category. I've never seen a worse driver. She had numerous fender benders and 5 major accidents by the time she was 20!! I would not allow my kids to ride with her.

I'm sorry. I ramble! Lol. What I'm saying is money well spent by anyone who hasn't already done it is a course in defensive driving. Preferably in your New RV. I think in some cases you may get a discount on your insurance too.

An LD weighs 14,500. Most passenger cars are going to be around 5000. Who do you think is going to get the better of it in a rear end collision! Lol. If a semi rear ends you then, yes. But the odds of that have to right up there with hitting the lotto. Most semi drivers are good drivers.
I would not give it a thought for my kids. Son is 26, daughter is 22. My only stipulation would be no moving around in the coach while underway and seat belt fastened.

But that's just me
















 
Re: any advice when visiting the factory
Reply #38 –
Quote from: Chip Chester  - 
The clear downsides would be that if a coach needs long-term safe seating for more than two, it also needs sleeping quarters for more than two. Lack of quick and comfortable dinette conversion would be a deal-killer for most.

Dinette seating/bed conversion is a staple in the RV world.  I'm surprised there's not a modular, DOT-rated dinette frame product that all the mfg's use.  But if they did their research DOT regs may also result in doing away with the table while underway.

Whatever mod I would do would be with an eye toward converting it back to stock at some point, so your advice about the lack of a dinette and resale is well-taken.  I initially thought that it would be easy to remove the forward facing dinette bench but research tells me it ain't so simple.  I think someone posted somewhere that the better solution is to have the factory simply not install the bench during assembly.  I would store it until I convert the rig back to spec.

Quote from: Judie Ashford  - 
I'm wondering if a Lazy Daze model that encompasses two chairs would be able to somehow use this procedure to lock down an appropriate chair (or two) for accommodating additional passengers.

This would be The Perfect Solution but we need the additional couch for sleeping.  Drat.

Quote from: wrightstuf  - 
My point of all the above is DEFENSIVE driving. I cannot emphasize this enough.

So true.  I ride a motorcycle and until recently I used to fly privately.  Both can be incredibly fun but it only takes a microsecond of poor judgment or miscalculation or lack of situational awareness to ruin an afternoon.