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Topic: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar. (Read 156 times) previous topic - next topic
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Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Yahoo Message Number: 160297
Hello all! I picked up a nice 2003 23.5' FL about two months ago, and I've been enjoying it (Saw another LD while taking mine out for a shakedown run at the local KOA here in San Antonio, haven't seen too many in this area before!), it's a huge upgrade from the 30-ish year old Winnebago I had previously.

So, now, I'm looking into installing a healthy solar panel system, as I boondock regularly. I'm fairly knowledgeable about the electrical side of things, while I program computers for a living nowadays, I used to do electronics work for a mfr of high power motor controllers at one time, so sizing cable for the amperages, etc is no problem. My questions are more on the physical side of the install, getting the wires where they need to go, properly mounting the panels, etc.

First question, Wire access:

Alas, mine is one of the few LD I've seen that *didn't* have any panels installed at the factory (I gather they weren't standard on the smaller rigs til' later), so it doesn't have the preinstalled access conduit/vent  on the roof for the wiring. Also, the usual route for such wiring (fridge vent) is on the curb side of the rig, while the batteries, and the electrical panels are all on the drivers side. (My lounge layout has the barrel chairs and the table covering the battery box on the drivers side. For some reason the floorplan on the LD website shows this mirrored.)

So, to get the wires from the panels to the controller (likely a Victron mppt controller), which will probably live in the bottom kitchen cabinet space somewhere, I've got two options:

1) *carefully* drill a hole in the roof, likely above the microwave, and add an access box (home depot weathertight junction box with a 2" or so diameter bit of pvc conduit sticking out the bottom, the whole thing sealed in place with plentiful application of 3M-5200), and run the wires through there, out the side of the upper cabinet above the rear barrel chair and down through some cable channel alongside the valence into the lower cabinet. This will shorten the cable run, and provide ready access for cables for other things (namely cellular and wifi antennas) that I will be wanting to install on the roof. I've seen pictures of a very nice similar install (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157661711994929/with/23710216171/), but I think he's using the factory access vent, not modifying the roof.

2) Shanghai the tank vent in the rear bath to run the wires through. This will mean a slightly longer cable run (+6-8 ft to reach all the way to the back of the rig and forward again inside), but I can just run the wires from the rear bath wardrobe straight into the lower kitchen cabinet, and on to the controller. And I don't have to drill a hole in the roof, which is always good. The problem being, since I want to install 480w of panels (I think I can fit 3 of Grape Solar's 160w panels) I want to use a decent gauge wire, and with the future need for 2 cellular antenna cables and a network cable for WiFi, I'm not sure how much cable I can cram through that vent without interfering with it's functioning.

Anyone have thoughts on which is better? Or any pitfalls I might encounter here?

Second, actually mounting the panels: Do folks take care to line up the mounts on the solar panels with the 'rafters' in the roof? Or is any old place reasonable to screw the mounts to (with appropriate sealant, of course) I can find where the beams are by looking at the nailhead covers on the ceiling inside and measuring from 'landmarks' that go through the roof, like the fan and AC openings. I'm just not sure if I'd be  able to fit the panels I'm looking at if I have to adjust their position for the beams.

Third, minor question: Is there any good way to (temporarily) remove the table that covers the battery box inside without damaging anything? This would make it easier to run wires to the battery box (I'm also looking to install a Victron battery monitor, and need to install a shunt.) I would think there is, but I'm not seeing one (perhaps I'm just not seeing some screws somewhere?).

--Thanks,

--

--     -Monsyne M. Dragon

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #1
Yahoo Message Number: 160298
I can only answer one of your questions - the easy one. It is not necessary to drill holes in the roof to mount the panels. They will stay there with VHB tape covered with Dicor. No, I am not kidding. Our rig has over 85,000 miles on it and they remain attached. The Dicor is just to keep the sun off the VHB.

I know one fellow that used construction glue. That will work too.

No holes.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #2
Yahoo Message Number: 160300
"They will stay there with VHB tape covered with Dicor. No, I am not kidding. Our rig has over 85,000 miles on it and they remain attached. The Dicor is just to keep the sun off the VHB."

VHB Tape can work OK but do consider how many holes an LD's roof has when new, there are a lot.
I like the added security of having a few screws assisting the tape...just in case.
The important thing is to seal things correctly with long lasting sealant.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #3
Yahoo Message Number: 160307
"I've seen pictures of a very nice similar install (Sky Blue 3000i solar controller | Flickr - Photo Sharing!), but I think he's using the factory access vent, not modifying the roof. "

Nope, it uses the original hole that LD drilled for entry of the solar wires and is sealed exactly the same way it came from the Factory. I just added a couple photos of the fitting.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157661711994929/show

Nothing fancy, just an exterior electrical junction box cover, glued and screwed to the roof, with a 90 degree 3/4" waterproof exterior fitting, replacing the Factory 1/2" fitting (to accommodate the larger wire).

Everything is well sealed and has worked fine for years. You could do the same with the electrical junction box, glue and screw it to the roof, with a hole, through the roof, inside the box. an added piece of PVC pipe would be a good addition.
For a fresh installation, I would drill into the microwave cabinet, on the far right side or in the wardrobe..
Running small wires, inside a vent is OK but you will want much larger cable, maybe 4-gauge, depending on the length of the wire runs and what percentage of voltage drop you are happy with. Provide the new solar wining with its own roof penetration.

The reason why the 24' floorpan on LD's website is reversed is because it is reversed.
LD does not produce the Front Lounge floor plan anymore, replacing it with the resigned Front Dinette.

Position the panels where they fit the best, mounting them by bedding each panel's feet in 3M 5200 and then screwing each foot down to the roof, over coating the stainless steel screw heads with polyurethane.
The panels do not weight much and do not stress the roof significantly. I'm more concerned about tree branches getting under them.

To access the battery cabinet, you can cut much of the front away, exposing quite a bit of useful space.
While the batteries were moved below, I turned the table's empty space into storage along with the newly vacated space in the battery compartment.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157602104742631/show Battery tray- new | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #4
Yahoo Message Number: 160309
I did my 400 watt solar system, with not factory system installed, right after buying my then new '05 MB. There's a photo album on the install here:

Yahoo! Groups

No wires or conduit exposed anywhere except on the roof.

bumper
bumper
"Yonder" '05 MB
"WLDBLU" glider trailer

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #5
Yahoo Message Number: 160310
"I like the added security of having a few screws assisting the tape...just in case."

I agree. I mounted my latest set of panels with VHB after very thoroughly prepping the surface... but I also put two screws into each of the front brackets for each panel. I'm not too worried about the rear of a panel lifting up, but if the front came loose at highway speed, it would be a disaster. The screws are extra insurance against that happening.

Andy Baird
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #6
Yahoo Message Number: 160316
On my solar panels, I mounted them using VHB tape and then covered the bracket with some Eternabond tape and that has worked well now for over 6 years.
Jota
96 23.5 FL

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #7
Yahoo Message Number: 160329
"I've seen pictures of a very nice similar install (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157661711994929/with/23710216171/), but I think he's using the factory access vent, not modifying the roof. "

Monsyne

Nope, I used the original hole that LD drilled for the Factory solar. The fitting is upsized to allow for the much larger wire installed when increasing the solar to 405-watts.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157661711994929

You do not see the correct floorpan on LD's site because they do not make our floorpan, the Front Lounge, anymore, instead it is now the Front Dinette, with the lounge area reversed.

I would not attempt to use the vent pipe, it is too small for the large cables. You will probably 4-gauge cable, possibly 6-gauge, depending on the length of the wire run and what percentage of voltage drop is acceptable to you.
Bring the wires down in the rear wardrobe or in back of the microwave. Don't be afraid of drilling holes in the roof, just make sure they are well sealed. 3M 5200 Fast cure is and has been my sealant of choice for many years.
I mount the shunts inside the battery box.
BTW, the Victron battery monitor is cheaper overall and easier to install than the LinkLites. It will also coordinate with the Victron controller.

Position the panels where they fit the best and are not shaded by antennas. The do not weigh much and do not need to be screwed or postponed over the roof rafters, mounting them by bedding the feet in polyurethane and then screwing the feet to the roof, using stainless screws. The screw heads get over-coated with poly.

The inside of the table in half empty and can be opened up for a good deal of storage.
Here is what I did when the heavy wiring was upgraded during the battery upgrade.
Wine rack

Battery tray- new

More power is always good.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #8
Yahoo Message Number: 160334
"You will probably 4-gauge cable, possibly 6-gauge, depending on the length of the wire run and what percentage of voltage drop is acceptable..."

You've probably already thought of this, but I recommend considering a series-parallel hookup, with the panels in pairs. I know that straight parallel solar panel setups have been standard for RVers for many years, and I used that method myself until this winter, but series-parallel has some real advantages.

First, when voltage is doubled by putting two panels in series, voltage drop is halved for a given gauge of cable... or alternatively, you can use smaller cable that's easier to run.

Also, the solar controllers I'm familiar with need to see an input voltage that's several volts above the battery voltage before they will start putting out power to the batteries. With panels paired in series, that minimum voltage is reached much sooner, meaning your charging period starts earlier in the morning and lasts later into the evening. That's a big plus.

Series-parallel hookups do have some drawbacks. First, you have to have pairs of panels. For most of us that means two, four or six panels--you can't have one, three or five.

Second, if one panel in a series pair is shaded, it reduces the output of the other panel as well, even if that panel is still in full sun. This isn't the case with all-parallel hookups. But while this is true in theory, in practice I haven't found there to be a noticeable problem due to shading--no worse than when I had all my panels in parallel.

Finally, the higher voltages of a series hookup (typically 36-40 V per pair of panels) require an MPPT (maximum power point tracking) charging controller. To me that's not a drawback, because MPPT controllers are so much more efficient than old-style PWM controllers that I think any serious solar power system should have one.

All in all, I think the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. I've seen significantly more power since I switched over to series-parallel.

Andy Baird
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #9
Yahoo Message Number: 160343
An FYI on replacing the HPV-22B with the Blue Sky 3000i in a *TK*: the job requires cosmetic "framing" of the controller after it is is wired in the hole; the 3000i is a deeper unit than the HPV-22B, and the "right behind the hole" refrigerator placement in the TK prevents the 3000i from seating fully into the space.

AM Solar installed the 3000i (and another 100W panel) in my 2003 TK, and Greg and his installers crafted a "box" from birch wood trim to frame the new controller. The frame box provides a finished appearance.

Fitting the deeper 3000i charge controller into the original hole should not be an issue with other models that don't have the refrigerator smack up against the rear of the controller!

Joan
2003 TK has a new home

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #10
Yahoo Message Number: 160365
I get the belt and suspenders peace of mind reasoning for using screws, but I am comfortable with VHB considering:
1) Mike Sylvester used VHB for the first two panels. [No finer tech than Mike. I miss him]
2) AM Solar used VHB for the third panel. How many panels have they installed?
3) 85,000 miles and no worries.
4) If a panel did come loose, the screw could tear a hole in the aluminum.
5) I am adverse to putting holes in the roof, especially considering Lake Newton fills up from time-to-time and water can work it's way through pin holes.

Whistling past the graveyard
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #11
Yahoo Message Number: 160366
"An FYI on replacing the HPV-22B with the Blue Sky 3000i in a *TK*: the job requires cosmetic "framing" of the controller after it is is wired in the hole; the 3000i is a deeper unit than the HPV-22B, and the "right behind the hole" refrigerator placement in the TK prevents the 3000i from seating fully into the space."

Joan

AM Solar now sell an adaptor plate for changing from the HPV-22 to a Blue Sky 30001. The opening still needs to be opened up a bit but the 'damage' is covered by the plate.
Heliotrope to Blue Sky Adapter Plate — AM Solar

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #12
Yahoo Message Number: 160371
"AM Solar now sell an adaptor plate for changing from the HPV-22 to a Blue Sky 30001"

---- Good to know! I like my custom wooden frame job, though; unique! ;-)

Joan
2003 TK has a new home

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #13
Yahoo Message Number: 160377
Here's a correction to my post #160334 on series-parallel wiring. I wrote, "you have to have pairs of panels. For most of us that means two, four or six panels--you can't have one, three or five." That's not true. You can wire three or more panels in series, as long as your controller can handle the higher voltage.

For example, my Victron 75/50 controller can handle up to 75 volts of input, so I could connect three panels in series (or series-parallel connect two sets of three) to it. My Renogy 100 W panels put out 18.9 V per panel, so in series they'd total around 60 V.

However, remember what I said about shading: when one panel in a series string is shaded, it pulls down the output of the other panel(s) in the string. Obviously the more panels in the string, the more likely this is to happen, and the more serious the effect if it does happen.

So although you can put more than two panels in series (assuming your controller can handle the higher voltage), for most situations, pairs of panels wired in series-parallel fashion are probably the most practical arrangement.

Andy Baird
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #14
Yahoo Message Number: 160381
(Erf, My... Yahoo's forums are obnoxious. Can't wait for the new site. Let's see if this works...)

In reply to: Andy Baird's message on: Fri May 6, 2016 9:23 pm (PDT):

 Yah, I'll be running 4awg cable between the controller and the panels. I probably could get away with smaller cable, but wire is relatively cheap, all considered, and if I'm drilling the roof anyway, I'll be putting a 2" conduit in to the junction box so I can run my antenna cables too, so there's plenty of room.

I am actually planning on a series or series-parallel setup. The issue being that for the panels I'm looking at (Grape solar's 160-fab8), I can only fit 3 of them on the roof. In that case I'd just wire them in series (from my EE experience, my inclination is "transmit power at the highest voltage you can get away with"). This does raise the shading problem, but careful mounting (and careful orientation when parking)  can mitigate that.

The alternative is to use 4 of the slightly smaller 100w Grape solar panels in a series parallel config. This would lessen the shading issue, but, I'm not sure it's worth the 80w loss in capacity.

(Theoretically, I could  parallel  2-160w panels in series and 2-100w, if I use the grape monocrystalline panels for both, they are the same voltage. But mixing panels tends to confuse MPPT controllers, and while the Victron controllers I'm looking at are one of the few that might not have a problem (their mppt algorithms are better than most), I'm not going to bother with the potential complications. )

I wouldn't do an all-parallel setup, because, as you mentioned, it's too easy for the panel voltage to get too low for the controller to work with. Especially in hot climates, where the temps on a hot roof can have a real impact on panel voltage.

As for controllers, I'm looking the Victron 100/50 MPPT controller. (Actually I'm looking at Victron equipment for most of my electrical gear). BTW, If you dig around Victron's site, they have a nice spreadsheet for system sizing. (Matching solar modules to MPPT charge controllers | Victron Energy) By default it's just got their own panels listed, but you can edit it and add whatever you like. I added all of Grape Solar's products to the sheet and was able to check configs including temperature factors, etc. Useful.   
--

--     -Monsyne M. Dragon

Lazy Daze '03 24' FL

Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #15
Yahoo Message Number: 160382
"transmit power at the highest voltage you can get away with"

Exactly. And you know how to size your cable for minimum voltage drop, so you should do fine.

"I'm looking the Victron 100/50 MPPT controller."

I have to apologize again: I said I had a Victron 75/50, but in fact I have a 100/50 in my Lazy Daze and a 75/15 in my car. I often get the model numbers confused. Sorry about that!

"Actually I'm looking at Victron equipment for most of my electrical gear"

I like their gear. No solar controller is without faults, but Victrons equipment works well and plays well together. Two things you should know about the 100/50: first, it has no provision for external (on-the-battery) temperature compensation, so you need to mount your controller as close to the batteries as possible. Otherwise you can run into over- and undercharging scenarios because the batteries are at one temperature and the controller at another.

Second, older versions of the 100/50 controller were powered by the solar panels rather than by the 12 V batteries, so they went dead at sundown. That didnâ matter as far as charging was concerned, of course but if you want an integrated system in which the controller talks to a Color Control GX or other Victron monitor unit, with one of these older units, the controller and all its historical data will go offline after dark. That's quite annoying when you want to tally the days solar gains at the end of the day. I wound up with one of the older units before I realized there was a difference. Be sure you get one of the newer ones.

Andy Baird
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

 
Re: Adding solar to LD with no factory solar.
Reply #16
I posted this awhile ago, but it got lost in the transition. However, it may still be helpful:

"I wouldn't do an all-parallel setup, because, as you mentioned, it's too easy for the panel voltage to get too low for the controller to work with. Especially in hot climates, where the temps on a hot roof can have a real impact on panel voltage."

I recommend all panels in parallel. Extra voltage morning and evening will make little difference, because the panels convert photon incidence into current, and the current will not rise until the photon density rises. At that point the open-circuit voltage is already pretty much topped off. As far as reducing the effects of voltage drops on distribution power losses, this should be insignificant if the wire gauge is large enough and all connections are secure and weather-tight.

As for the ADVANTAGE of all-parallel connection, siting an RV roof with flat-mounted panels can be a challenge in many situations. Significant shading on ONE panel will not only drastically cut the output of that panel, but any panels series connected to it. This has no bearing on a huge solar-tracking array in the middle of the desert, where the voltage drops interconnecting thousands of panels is a major concern, but your LD roof is a quite different animal...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit