Conserving electricity February 05, 2015, 11:17:36 am Yahoo Message Number: 150788For you electrical engineers out there I am wondering if there is a difference in electrical consumption between regular power hookups and using coach batteries until they are depleted to "safe" levels and then recharging those batteris via that power hookup? Is it a case of having a set supply of electrical power and using it at the same level no matter how that supply is depleted or could there actually be a savings by using the batteries?
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #1 – February 05, 2015, 11:59:29 am Yahoo Message Number: 150789My shot at it: Depends how you charge the batteries. If the converter charges the batteries then the efficiency loss is the same whether running lights or charging the batteries that ran the lights. You would tend to use more power when plugged in.If the batteries are charged by solar then you would be ahead using battery power. In my mind it isn't worth thinking about. Plug in if you can. Harry 2003 C190P
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #2 – February 05, 2015, 12:20:58 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150790For you electrical engineers out there I am wondering if there is a difference in electrical consumption between regular power hookups and using coach batteries until they are depleted to "safe" levels and then recharging those batteris via that power hookup? Is it a case of having a set supply of electrical power and using it at the same level no matter how that supply is depleted or could there actually be a savings by using the batteries?Once you plug into the shore power the bat are charging. There is no way to stop this unless you install a switch on the converter to stop the charging. If you do not plug into the shore power you will not have 110 volt in the camper for the 110 plugs and that means no MW, frig 110 or AC. Your power for the lights frig 12 volt and HWT all come from the bats. Once the 12 volt comes out of the converter it is fed to the bat and that same wire that feeds the 12 volt fuse panel. When you are connected to shore power the bats are always at 14 volts + or - a little. When you only use the bat they will go down to 12.06 volt (50%) which is a safe recharge state. When I dry camped with the Big Foot slide in camper the 1000 watt Honda generator would not support the converter and the 110 MW so I installed a special switch on the converter so that I could stop from charging the bat and this allowed me to run the MW. Once I was done using the MW I would turn the converter back on.GeorgeRetired plumber
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #3 – February 05, 2015, 01:04:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150801Are you trying to save on metered electric? If so, you're best bet is to limit the use of high draw appliance (microwave, Air Conditioning, resistance (electric) heaters, etc...) You can save a little by switching the battery charger off at the breaker _IF_ you have solar to charge the batteries. However, my guess is the extra charge cycles on the batteries will cost more than the savings in the long run (ie. the batteries may wear out sooner). I've turned off the house battery charger and relied on solar a few times when I had limited power (15amp) and didn't want to overload the circuit.In general, however, I don't think you'll gain much.Rich '03MB in NC
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #4 – February 05, 2015, 01:09:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150802I replaced my two 6-volt Interstate house batteries three days ago and this morning I unplugged to test my new batteries by using them for my power needs. The batteries showed 11.9 volts when I began the test. I've read that we should not use them below 12.1 volts. Does that mean my new batteries are defective?
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #5 – February 05, 2015, 01:10:25 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150803You'll use more electricity by running off the batteries, then re-charging them, than running from the power company directly. There are charging inefficiencies and conversion losses, which are 10% or higher.RonC5b Re: Conserving electricity Thu Feb 5, 2015 9:59 am (PST) . Posted by: My shot at it: Depends how you charge the batteries. If the converter charges the batteries then the efficiency loss is the same whether running lights or charging the batteries that ran the lights. You would tend to use more power when plugged in. If the batteries are charged by solar then you would be ahead using battery power. In my mind it isn't worth thinking about. Plug in if you can. Harry 2003 C190P
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #6 – February 05, 2015, 01:24:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150804If you haven't already, I'd recommend reading Andy's Eureka pages about batteries: http://www.andybaird.com/Eureka/pages/batteries.htmIn particular, the section called "A fuel gauge for your batteries" should be helpful. The short answer is that voltage is a crude way to determine the health of your batteries. A battery monitor is much more useful.Rich '03 MB in NC
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #7 – February 05, 2015, 02:15:15 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150806I replaced my two 6-volt Interstate house batteries three days ago and this morning I unplugged to test my new batteries by using them for my power needs. The batteries showed 11.9 volts when I began the test. I've read that we should not use them below 12.1 volts. Does that mean my new batteries are defective? It very well could. I presume that after you installed the bat that they were on charge for the 3 days. If you were not charging the bat that may have been the charge when you install them. What was the code date of the bat you bought. They could have been setting on the shelf for some time and lost most of there charge. Then you could have a charging problem. Did you get all the wires on right. One thing to do is test the volts of each bat secretly. They should read some thing like 6.6 volt each. If you have one bad bat it will draw the other down. When I removed the bat from my camper 2 years ago going into winter they were good. Later when I checked they in the winter (they were stored in a heated garage off the floor) one had shorted out.GeorgeRetired plumber
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #8 – February 05, 2015, 02:30:05 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150807Are these batteries deep cycle golf cart batteries like the Trojans? You can test them with a load tester and hydrometer. Something definitely wrong battery voltage should not be that low after a 3 day charge. With the A.C. plugged in what is the voltage at the battery? Why were the other batteries replaced and how old were they? You may have a converter charging issue.Bob 01 23.5 TK with toys...
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #9 – February 05, 2015, 05:06:48 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150811Something to add to my previous remarks regarding this low battery voltage problem: If you have Solar check the output of the Solar charge controller. I have heard of them going bad and overcharging batteries, especially if you have AGM type batteries. Potentially a very costly failure because it usually fries a set of batteries before problem found.Bob 01 23.5 TK with toys...
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #10 – February 05, 2015, 06:01:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150814"If you have Solar check the output of the Solar charge controller. I have heard of them going bad and overcharging batteries, especially if you have AGM type batteries."Case in point:Last year I replaced my eight-year-old AGM batteries with a new set, after the old ones lost their capacity to store more than a fraction of their rated amp-hours. I didn't think much of it at the time, since the batteries were far from new. But a year later, the new batteries were showing the same signs of failure. That meant I had a serious problem... but what was it?I replaced the second set of batteries and began checking my wiring for problems, upgrading the areas I found that were substandard. Yet less than a month later, the third set of batteries was failing in the same way!It was only then that an overvoltage alarm from my just-installed Smartgauge battery monitor tipped me off to the fact that my nine-year-old Heliotrope HPV-30 solar charging controller was intermittently feeding 17 volts to the batteries, which should never see more than 14.4 V normally. That killed the third set of batteries, forcing me to buy a fourth set.I ended up buying a new MorningStar MPPT-45 solar controller, which hopefully won't go wonky the way the HPV-30 did... but I'll be keeping a close watch on it from now on.Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Re: Conserving electricity now Battery Monitor Reply #11 – February 06, 2015, 07:55:05 am Yahoo Message Number: 150819"It was only then that an overvoltage alarm from my just-installed Smartgauge battery monitor tipped me off to the fact that my nine-year-old Heliotrope HPV-30 solar charging controller was intermittently feeding 17 volts to the batteries, which should never see more than 14.4 V normally. That killed the third set of batteries, forcing me to buy a fourth set."Andy, do you continue to use your old battery monitor or have you replaced it with the Smartgauge? Do you find it superior to the shunt type that we have discussed in the past?Sounds like an expensive experience.Jim C
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #12 – February 06, 2015, 07:19:52 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150827Yes Andy, Larry told me about your unfortunate experience with the charge controller. Thank you for sharing. Like so many other times I continue to learn from your experiences. LD should hire you to write a book about them and all the neat things you have done to your rig. Hope to see you on the road sometime.I wonder what will become of LD when Steve decides to retire........Bob 01 23.5 TK with toys...
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #13 – February 06, 2015, 08:16:53 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150828"If you have Solar check the output of the Solar charge controller. I have heard of them going bad and overcharging batteries, especially if you have AGM type batteries."I have the VOLT MINDER 71730 mounted on the wall. I can read it from in bed; it has a back lite and alarm they you can set to any volt. Has a cig plug so you just plug it in. It is where I can see it at any time. Ive been using it for 3 years.12V DC Volt Minder (71730) | MonsterMarketplace.comGeorgeRetires Plumber
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #14 – February 06, 2015, 08:26:50 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150829George,The spec says "An audible tone will sound when the battery voltage is reduced to a level that is designated by the operator. This warning voltage level can be set between 10.5 to 13.5 volts DC."The problem Andy had was not low voltage, it was *high* voltage. i.e. 17 Volts. The meter you mention does not catch that.Alex Rutchka, SE #4 '05 MBRead more: http://www.monstermarketplace.com/batteries/12v-dc-volt-minder-71730#ixzz3R1QbuTPX"
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #15 – February 06, 2015, 08:28:39 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150830Hi Andy,I think I have the same problem you've experience with your AGM batteries. It's been driving me crazy for over a year trying to figure out what was wrong. My 440 Ah capacity is down to approximately 100Ah.At $300 a battery for Lifetime AGM, did you have a warranty with your early battery deaths? Otherwise with the number of batteries that you have, this is an incredibly costly story.How did you determine that your AGM batteries were bad? I've used a load tester and it didn't show anything wrong. Perhaps I should have left the load on longer??Sorry that you aren't going to be moderator anymore. You've done a great job and was appreciated by all.Bob K.
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #16 – February 06, 2015, 09:23:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150833The spec says "An audible tone will sound when the battery voltage is reduced to a level that is designated by the operator. This warning voltage level can be set between 10.5 to 13.5 volts DC."The problem Andy had was not low voltage, it was *high* voltage. i.e. 17 Volts. The meter you mention does not catch that.Alex Rutchka, SE #4 '05 MB Your right about the alarm. But that tells me to recharge the bats when low. This is the most common problem. But the read out in volts tells me if I have a problem with the solar charger regulator. If it gets much over 14 volt and keeps heading up to 17 volt I have an OVER CHARGE problem. The alarm will remind me to charge bat before UNDER 50% charge. With over charge you have more time to correct the problem and looking at is every so often you will catch that problem.GeorgeRetired Plumber
Re: Conserving electricity now Battery Monitor Reply #17 – February 06, 2015, 11:32:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150836"Andy, do you continue to use your old battery monitor or have you replaced it with the Smartgauge?"I had an XBM (Xantrex Battery Monitor), which was similar to the LinkLite/LinkPro type "amp-hour counter" monitor. I replaced it with a Victron BMV-700, a more advanced amp-hour counter that uses a similar shunt-based method... and I added the Smartgauge, which uses a completely different method. (It makes 1,500 voltage measurements per second, and uses proprietary algorithms to analyze the battery bank's characteristics. It doesn't even care how big the bank is.)I use both meters now, cross-checking them against each other. I trust the Smartgauge more, but I've only had it for a couple of months, so I don't know how it will pan out on the long run. Based on reviews, I hope it will become more accurate as time passes, while I now know that the Victron will become less accurate, and will need recalibration at least yearly.On the other hand, the Victron tells me exactly how much power(in amps or watts) is going into or out of my batteries at any given moment, which the Smartgauge can't do. So they serve complementary functions. I keep nightly records of the readings, and hope to learn from that over time.In short, an ideal setup would be to have both monitors. But the total cost would run around $400, and not many people are willing to spend that much to look after their batteries' health. After all, $400 will buy you several brand new Trojan T105 batteries!"Sounds like an expensive experience."Indeed! Concorde Lifeline GPL 31 XT AGM batteries cost $365 apiece. You can do the math. That's why these monitors are worth what they cost to me, or to anyone who relies on a large battery bank for boondocking.Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #18 – February 07, 2015, 12:03:39 am Yahoo Message Number: 150837"did you have a warranty with your early battery deaths?"Concorde does warrant the batteries against faulty workman ship, but since the failures were clearly due to the controller's going haywire, I didn't attempt to make a warranty claim."How did you determine that your AGM batteries were bad?"Basically, I knew it because they didn't behave as expected. For example, the (old) battery monitor might say they were at 85%-90%, yet when I attempted to use the microwave oven (I have a 2 KW whole-house inverter), they'd conk out in a few seconds--the voltage would drop to ten or eleven volts and stay there, and the inverter would shut down.Later, when I had the Smartgauge installed and working, I determined the capacity of the batteries by repeatedly lowering the Victron amp-hour counter's "battery bank size" setting until its indicated percentage of charge matched up with what the Smartgauge told me. I ended up with the Victron set to 200 amp-hours. That was just 40% of the (brand new) batteries' 500 Ah rated capacity!I don't have any experience with load testers; I don't even know whether they are appropriate for testing deep-cycle as opposed to starting batteries... so I'm afraid I can't tell you anything useful about that testing method.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #19 – February 08, 2015, 10:13:09 am Yahoo Message Number: 150867No solar charger here. I have a Xantrex Freedom HF 1800 inverter.
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #20 – February 08, 2015, 10:13:57 am Yahoo Message Number: 150868My old batteries were five years old and four of those were in storage with the vehicle being driven and the batteries put under a load monthly. Yes, they were 6-volt deep-cycle golf batteries by Interstate. My new ones are comparable to the old ones according to Interstate. The old batteries would show a level of 12.4 volts when fully charged, but would drop within minutes to a subpar level (11.4 volts). I feel comfortable that the old batteries were in need of replacing.
Re: Conserving electricity Reply #21 – February 09, 2015, 02:29:46 am Yahoo Message Number: 150910My old batteries were five years old and four of those were in storage with the vehicle being driven and the batteries put under a load monthly. Yes, they were 6-volt deep-cycle golf batteries by Interstate. My new ones are comparable to the old ones according to Interstate. The old batteries would show a level of 12.4 volts when fully charged, but would drop within minutes to a subpar level (11.4 volts). I feel comfortable that the old batteries were in need of replacing.*********My bat are one year old. I removed them from the MH 5 weeks ago. They had 14+ volts at that time from solar. They have been setting in a garage that does not go below 40 degree. They still show 12.85 today with no draw.GeorgeRetired Plumber
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