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Topic: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma (Read 5 times) previous topic - next topic
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Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Yahoo Message Number: 148495
Hi All
 When I purchased my LD, the then owner signed, and had notarized, a document that stated the basics, including the brakes, were "in good operating condition".
 The document also stated he would pay for any repairs over $750 found in the first 30 days.
 However, I've now discovered I need a complete brake job - pads, rotors,  calipers, and I assume at least a few lines too - as well as 3 new  tires. The total estimate is $2300
 He is now saying the vehicle is used, that problems are to be expected and he doesn't want to pay anything towards the cost of the repairs.
 From those of you who have purchased used vehicles, am I being unfair in expecting him to pay at least something - I'm thinking at least $1000?

Many thanks....

Pat & The Pearl

PS I managed to get her to the shop with out a tow - just didn't use my brakes for almost 40 miles, picked a route with mostly expressway driving. It WAS a real comfort to know I had CoachNet as a back up plan!
The Pearl - 2000 31'
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148496
I think that agreement is impossible to enforce. Why did he change his mind so quick?   Plus the brakes might need to be replaced, but they were working when you drove off.  I mean how "worn" are the brakes David LD  30foot IB 2005
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148497
To a person of high ethics a contact is a contact.  Sometimes you win sometimes you eat crow.  If I signed a paper saying I pay for repairs over a certain amount I'd pay.
The tires I might question because you did see them but the brakes, without pulling the wheels you have no idea what is going on.
Maybe a small claims court in the state you live could be helpful. With a signed contact you do have some legal grounds.

Glen
personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148499
Yes you are being unreasonable. I can always find a mechsnic that will take movey. Did the brakes fail or are you having them inspected and they need replaced. If brake lines failed you would have no brakes. Often you see advice here to be prepared to spend a few cthousand on a used rig. And three lines don't fail at once. They might be close to failing or show a b little rust but when one ruptures it takes a ll thr pressure off the others. At most he should be expected to pay for a hat actually fails and not for what someone thinks needs replaced. T ue latter is routine maintenance.
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148500
I would work with the facts.  If you found the brake problem within the 30 day agreement period, present the findings and your request for reimbursement to the prior owner.  Work within your agreement.
 I'm glad you got to your destination ok without brakes this time, but next time call please call Coachnet or a towing service.  Your bill will be much higher if you bump into me.
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148501
"Caveat emptor", let the buyer beware, rules, as it has since time immemorial.   Alternately, trust but verify.  And that's the way it is.

Bob Siegel Santa Fe New Mexico
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148504
I once sold a car with a similar contract. The buyer's previous car had been stolen, and he was in a hurry to replace it, but nervous about buying a seven-year-old used car. So I promised to buy it back if he found major problems in the first thirty days.

A week later the police recovered his stolen car. Now he was in a pickle--he had two cars. So he found a mechanic who came up with a laundry list of things that needed to be done, including brake work, and presented it to me. I gritted my teeth and bought back the car. (I was able to sell it a few weeks later, and actually got more money for it the second time.)

If your brakes failed completely (as your "I drove it 40 miles to the shop without brakes" post implies), then I think you have a strong case against the seller. Total brake failure is a major problem by any definition.

I have to agree with those who've said that in that case, you should have called Coach-Net and had it towed. Driving without brakes is not only extremely dangerous, but in a legal sense weakens your case. It's going to be harder to argue that the brakes failed completely if you were nevertheless able to drive forty miles. A judge is likely to conclude that either you're a reckless driver, or the brakes weren't as completely useless as you claimed. I'm not arguing for either point of view here; just telling you how it'll look in court.

(I also wonder whether you test-drove the coach before buying. One would expect that any brake problems would show up then.)

The tires are a different case. They're not the seller's responsibility. You had ample opportunity to inspect them before you paid for the vehicle, and it's well known that RV tires must be replaced after five to seven years, regardless of wear--sooner if they've taken a beating from sun or pollution. This group's pre-purchase inspection list explains that, as does our guide to tires, and the advice has been repeated in these posts many times. It was up to you to look at the date codes and the tread wear before buying.

In short, my advice is to pursue the brake issue, where I do think you have a case, but accept that the tires are your responsibility.

Andy Baird

Travels with Andy
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148507
As some one suggested, you could try small claims court, but basically you are depending on the sympathy of the judge.  Before doing so I would get a statement from a competent mechanic about the conditions of your coach and, If he is willing, an estimate of the condition when you purchased it.  Tires and brake components in a motor home are expendables that must be replaced  periodically replaced.  You might get some consideration for the brakes, but IMHO the tires are a different matter.  (You might want to get a second opinion on the brake work too.)
 In a very loose sense you have a "contract."  However, the term "repairs" is not defined and means different things to different people.
 Did the previous owner provide you with detailed maintenance records and receipts?  They would be good supporting evidence in small claims court.

Doug
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148508
Thank you all for your guidance.
 Please let me be clear, I don't want this to go to court - I understand the risks of buying a used vehicle, and set money aside to deal with any problems that cropped up. I just didn't expect to be hit with a $2300 bill before I'd had a chance to take it on a single trip. When someone said the brakes tend to go around 55,000 to 60,000 miles, I had to question whether I was right to pursue this.
 I don't want to rip this guy off, but then again, I don't want to get ripped off either.
 Andy, I did take it for a test drive,  and there were no problems with the brakes that I could detect - no problems stopping, no squealing, no "mushy" feeling on the pedal, no pulling, no hot smell after probably a 10 mile drive of mixed expressway and side roads, plus some parking lot experimental stops. There was a  slight "shimmy" in the steering wheel which I and my more  automotively-experienced friend attributed to the tires having sat for  the winter, which is why I wanted them checked before I loaded up and hit the road. My friend checked out the underside and the engine, and I poked and prodded inside and outside of the rest of the vehicle, and we were satisfied that the vehicle was in good condition.
 As for the shop, my family has done business with them for years and years, and I recommend them to anyone looking for new tires, brakes etc. Several times I've walked away without paying a cent because they said all I needed was a balance/rotate rather than new tires - I trust that if they say the work needs doing, it needs doing.
 The friend who looked it over with me is one of the best engine guys in mid-Michigan, and has been in the business all of his life, working on everything from cars, big trucks, farm equipment and classic vehicles of every description. I trust him too.
 The tires I should have caught, but from what I could see, they looked to be in good condition. The age I totally missed - my bad...
 And lest you would think I would drive without any brakes at all, the brakes were working, I was just afraid they would stick again. I took a quick test drive up and down the deserted road  were it's currently parked and it stopped fine several times - I just  choose a different route than I would normally take to the tire shop  that was mostly expressway rather than the back roads I prefer. Even I'm  not crazy enough to drive a vehicle without brakes (my dad used to tell  stories about old vehicle he drove that would curl your hair!).

Thank you all again....

Pat
The Pearl - 2000 31'
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148509
Pat:  I bought my first lazy daze in 2000.   It was a 1995.  It was in beautiful condition and the guy even put two new 6 volt batteries in it.  I was so happy.  I drove home and 35 miles into the trip the lazy died!   Here is what happened.  He left the solar charger on(in Phoenix)and the charger cooked one of the cells of the battery.  The alternator overcharged trying to bring the house battery back, and the alternator died.
After a tow job and a 600 dollar repair bill, I called the previous owner asking him to help pay....he said no and hung up on me. oh well.   We had no contract signed liked you.
Hope you enjoy your lazy daze.

david

2005 30 ft. IB
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148510
Pat -
 We still don't know if this situation came up before or after the 30 days was up. The seller said he would cover you for 30 days.

Dick
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148511
Thanks for clarifying, Pat. Sounds as though you did a good job of pre-purchase checking out, aside from the tires' dates. And it appears that the brake problem (a stuck caliper rather than a complete failure) was unpredictable--just bad luck that it happened when it did.

I know that it's a shock to be hit with a $2,300 repair bill right after buying a vehicle. But I have a feeling that as a practical matter, you're probably not going to be able to collect from the seller. Rather than pursue that further, it may be best to chalk it up to experience, get the repairs done and the new tires put on, and get on with your travels. I hope they will be happy ones from here on!

Andy Baird

Travels with Andy
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148512
Yes, it did happen in the first 30 days...
The Pearl - 2000 31'
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148513
I used to have rv insurance maintenance  on my 1995 LD.  the front caliper went out.   My mechanic said replace both, replace the pads etc all at once. Surely a wise decision.  However My insurance would ONLY pay for the one front caliper that was bad;  they said replacing both and the pads were an option, a good option, but they only would pay for what was broken and need to be replaced.
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148521
"it may be best to chalk it up to experience, get the repairs done and the new tires put on, and get on with your travels. I hope they will be happy ones from here on!"

Pat, I agree with Andy.  Just get the repairs done and enjoy your travels, knowing your brakes are now definitely sound.  New tires and brakes are a great investment in your next adventures.

If it makes you feel any better, I had to stop on the drive home from buying Ciao Baby in Minneapolis and have something repaired- I don't even remember what the emergency was, but she has served us extremely well for over 7 years now.  No vehicle is going to be perfect when you buy it... something is sure to need repair very soon after purchase.  It is Murphy's Law!

I think you did nothing wrong with your purchasing decision as things just happen to used rigs, and at least after these repairs, you will know it is solid in the tires and brakes.

That is pretty sorry of the owner to say he'll offer a guarantee and then not stand behind his word, but unless you want to pursue that headache, I'd just fix up your rig like you want it and go have fun!

Please keep us posted on your adventures- I know they are going to be fabulous!

Tessa in TX '92 MB- Ciao Baby!
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148522
"When someone said the brakes tend to go around 55,000 to 60,000 miles,"
 IMHO getting this type of miles out of the E-450 brakes is very good.  It depends heavily on how a user drives the LD.  I had a 2005 MB, drove it hard on the interstates and through a lot of mountains. Despite the "tow/haul" feature of the transmission, going downhill wears brakes. I always towed a 4000 # Jeep and had to get my brakes rebuilt about every 30K miles.

Doug
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148523
Wow. Our E350 class C SOB went 190,000 miles with only one change in rear brakes shoes and front pads - no new disks, calipers, or drums. 90% of the time we towed a 2500 lb trailer (with surge brakes). I'm surprised to hear the heavy duty E450, with disk brakes all around, would wear so swiftly. Maybe you go through a LOT more mountains than we do.
 We have E450 now with 15,000 miles, so it will be 4 years or so before we reach the 55,000-60,000 mile mark. Probably won't remember to remark on it by then ;-)

Eric Greenwell
 'Doug Baker'  [lifewithalazydazerv] wrote, On 9/7/2014 6:41 PM:
2005 Jayco 24SS
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148524
"When someone said the brakes tend to go around 55,000 to 60,000 miles,"

There are so many variables, that it's impossible to say what is the normal amount of miles on a set of LD brakes. What model do you have, E350, E450?, 23.5' model or a 31' ?, do you tow, how close to the GVW is it? I know heavily loaded full timers who are lucky to get 30-40,000 miles, other who have light rigs, and do not tow, that get over 100,000 miles. Driving style has a great effect.
Our 2003 23.5' FL needed front brakes at 64,000 miles, when the warped front rotors started to shimmy badly. We tow about 2/3rds of the time. The rear brakes were still in good shape but change them too, while I was at. Even as a DIY job, it cost around $900, using premium parts.

The cost is also going to vary if the calipers and rotors are replaced or reused. Time also needs to be added for removing the front wheel bearings for either cleaning and repacking with grease or replacement, along with new seals.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148541
We have an '06 30IB with right at 60K.  Just had brakes checked and was told I'm good for at least another 25 to 30K.  We tow: a Subaru Outback for 4 years and now an '11 Ford Escape Hybrid at 3 years.  We have done the four corners and a good deal of Canada.

Bob in Florida SE 5
Kathy and Bob on the Go
 
Re: Opportunity to Excel Part 2 - Ethical Dilemma
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 148580
Got the Pearl back yesterday and she's running - and stopping - great. Took a look at the calipers and they were indeed shot - The manager said I was lucky I got it back across the state without major brake problems. He also said if I have to park her for a part of the winter, if I take her out every couple of weeks I can avoid the problem in future.
 Looked at the tires too, and while it doesn't excuse me missing the date, the worst of the cracks were on the inside tires on the back, and the cracks were next to the outside tire - we could tell because the other side was still shiny were they had been Armor-alled.
 I think I'm going to send the previous owner a copy of the bill, and suggest gently that he consider covering half the bill for the brakes. It sounds like better maintenance could have avoided or at least minimized the problem.
 I would also like to recommend the place that did the work - Totton Tires in Birch Run Michigan, right off I-75. Even though they had to do a bit more work than they expected, the bill came in under the estimate, and it was done when they said it would be done, even though they ran into a few problems.
 Thank you all again for your guidance - I'm thinking about a little trip this weekend and can't wait to get out there!
The Pearl - 2000 31'
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."