Fuel Pump Back up March 17, 2013, 01:29:04 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137436I have ordered an Airtex universal fuel pump (E8445) with fittings to install in place of the fuel filter if the fuel pump in our 2006 RB fails. For a total price of less than $100 the plan is to beat the tow bill and to be able to run the tank empty and replace the OEM one myself. The one unknown left is I don't know if a failed pump will pass fuel. I assume it will but If not then I would connect the temporary pump to the generator fuel line, which is nearby, and be able to move. This backup is necessary because the RV is often parked where there would be no tow truck access and it usually is parked with a full tank. Also it gives us an option when we are hundreds of miles from service. This has not been received, installed, and tested yet so it is too early for someone not willing to take the risk of it not working to duplicate. It did take a little bit of searching to find the special quick disconnect tubing (called bundy tubes) on either end of the filter to add to the fuel pump line so it would be a quick and reversable switch. All that is left is a power line and fuse. I will forego the oil pressure safety switch. Harry 2006 RB
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #1 – March 17, 2013, 02:43:51 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137440Harry,Simply brilliant!(as in, why didn't I think of that?) I think T-ing into the generator pick up would provide the best level of redundancy (assuming the ma
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #2 – March 17, 2013, 03:06:30 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137442Harry:This may turn out to be an excellent idea! I can think of another possible problem other than whether or not the failed fuel pump will let fuel pass. There may be programming
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #3 – March 18, 2013, 01:46:40 am Yahoo Message Number: 137464Hi Harry,This is going to be a long post!I have a MB that was new
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #4 – March 18, 2013, 03:40:01 am Yahoo Message Number: 137469Type 2 tries to control the pressure in the fuel rail (with respect to the manifold pressure) using a mechanical regulating device that is part of the fuel pump assembly located in the gas tank..Doug Interesting lesson, thanks. I need to go though my 2003 shop manual and see what system our LD uses. An auxiliary pump sure seems like a good idea, I had them my previous trucks, back in the pre-computer, carburetor days. Today's tank located pumps has made replacement, a once simple job, into a complex, expensive nightmare. I hate the thought of it going out in the middle of nowhere. BTW, your Cherokee is a type 2. The filter, pump, fuel level indicator and pressure regulator are one unit.Larry
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #5 – March 18, 2013, 04:22:20 am Yahoo Message Number: 137470Doug, Thanks for the tutorial. I have the full Ford service manual and will dig into it. It seems to me we could turn the backup system into a type 1 system by adding a mechanical regulator and using the generator fuel line as the return line. I have located a mechanical regulator with return line. Removing the fuse to the OEM pump would be required. Not sure what that does to the PCM. We don't have to run 70 mph uphill, Just get to the nearest dealer without a tow. Another approach is to see if we could tap into the OEM fuel pressure control system. Not likely but I will look into it.There is more than one way to sk
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #6 – March 18, 2013, 10:18:16 am Yahoo Message Number: 137473When modifying the fuel system, either main or gen, Please remember that the tank and lines are part of the emission control system. At least in CA, a modification of any kind will cause you to fail a smog inspection. Also remember the the fuel supply system for the engine must have a return line. Whatever supply pump you might use, must have the proper pressure and volume or you will throw the entire fuel strategy off.
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #7 – March 18, 2013, 01:35:13 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137475Keep those cards and letters coming!This would be totally transparent to emissions. It slips
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #8 – March 18, 2013, 02:09:53 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137476"Please remember that the tank and lines are part of the emission control system. At least in CA, a modification of any kind will cause you to fail a smog inspection. Also remember the the fuel supply system for the engine must have a return line."The modifications talked about here would most likely never be seen by an inspector, at least here in California. They do not normally go under the rig except for a quick peak to see if the catalytic converter is present. It might be possible to plumb in the extra pump in a way that it can be easily installed or removed, when needed, for emergency use or before being inspected. Since the evaporative system is not tampered with, there should be no serious violations of Federal law. I would be more concerned about making sure none of this will cause a fire hazard. Proper installation of the pressurized fuel lines is essential. Referring to Doug's earlier tutorial, the type 2 and 3 systems do not have return lines to the fuel tank, the pressure is regulated by other means, either with a in-tank regulator or by electronically controlling the fuel pump by turning it on and off rapidly. After spending some time this morning reading the 2003 FSM and then checking under under our LD's frame, it appears our 2003 LD does utilize a fuel supply and return line, both running from the fuel tank , up to the engine. The pressure regulator is mounted on the fuel injector manifold, located on the engine It also has a evaporative system hose running along with the fuel lines. Both fuel lines measure .310" ID, so they are metric sizes. The evaporative line is much larger in diameter (almost 1/2"). Doug's research indicate that a different, computer-controlled, return-less system is used in the newer models. Now if a added fuel pump can operate without setting a Check Engine Light (CEL), or causing the computer to shut the engine down, is to be seen. There are many safety feature built into the system. Still, I'm very interested in finding out. Another question is if the new, inline pump will allow fuel to be pumped through it without restrictions, a requirement if it is to be left installed all the time. I found that the 2003 fuel tanks have a pressure sensor built in. Most modern evaporative-control systems have a small air pump that pressurizes the fuel tank, with the computer monitoring the pressure to make sure no leaks occur. A very leaky generator supply line could set a code, if the air leak is large enough to be detectable. Lastly, if this emergency backup pump can be made to work, I would prefer to avoid the Airtex brand and find a Bosch replacement or another OEM supplier. Airtex is not well respected by most auto mechanics due to their frequent failures. Buying cheap gets you a cheap part. It might be OK for emergency work, who knows?Larry
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #9 – March 18, 2013, 02:10:31 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137477Any outward sign of a change or modification that is not OE is gonna cause a problem with CA smog inspection. That includes extra filters, splices, extra lines, bypasses, cutting
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #10 – March 18, 2013, 02:18:47 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137478When I have my tank down to replace the fuel pump (either prophylactically or otherwise) I plan on extending the gen pick up almost to the bottom of the tank. Figure I'll make the decision as to how long to run the generator."bumper Do you, or anyone else, know how the generator fuel pick up line is installed in the tank? Is it adjustable or welded into place. My 2003 Ford Workshop Manual shows no information pertaining to this. Steve's 2004 LD's generator will stop running when the fuel level nears 1/2 full, instead of the 1/4 tank level, something we would like to adjust.Larry
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #11 – March 18, 2013, 02:27:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137480Larry: The visual includes an inspection of the fuel lines for leaks, mods, cracking, etc.
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #12 – March 18, 2013, 04:42:04 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137489Larry, I saw the old FP assembly when I had it replaced on my 2005. I would guess that the secondary fuel outlet used for the genset is "fixed" in place and can't be lowered further into the tank. If you really wanted to be brave you might take the FP assembly apart and add an extension to the end of the "genset dip tube." I got the feeling that it might be just a piece of copper pipe. However, I may be completely wrong about the FP as I really didn't get a chance to examine it closely. The Ford service people let me go out into their shop and watch them work, which completely violated their company policy and the provisions of their insurance. I was trying to act appropriately and not bug them too much. Anyway, I was most interested in getting the rig back on the road coming home. Probably should have asked if I could keep the old FP assembly but that would probably require paying a core charge. Didn't ever think that I would be discussing the FP module again. I wish that I could remember the details of the connections on top of my fuel tank, but they are a bit fuzzy now. I do remember that the FP assembly had at least two "tubes" connected and an electrical connection. I believe that there was a third tube there someplace, but I am sure that it did not go "up front." I strongly suspect that it connected to something on the tank and went to a vapor filter, but I am just guessing. I took a different approach in trying to identify my fuel system type. I went under the hood and removed the input air duct, air cleaner housing, etc so that I could clearly see the engine then compared the "thing" mounted on the fuel rail to the sketches/pictures in the service manual. Your 2003 and my 2005 may have different types of fuel systems. In either 2004 or 2005 Ford made some major changes in things. The most basic change was in the type of "engine control computer" used. Earlier units were used the Electronic Engine Control Unit (EECU). This device had been around for many many years and had evolved. I believe that they were ousing Version 10 or 11, maybe higher, at the time that it was retired. You can identify these units by the place for a plugin module on one end. Banks Kits for the earlier vehicles used this facility. I don't know, but would guess, that on these vehicles there was a separate transmission control unit. Starting in 2004 or 2005 the "engine control computer" is a completely different device called the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). It includes transmission control functions too and was developed by Ford's equivalent of Delco. It does not have provisions for a plugin module. The PCM has a completely different set of software than the EECU. Some of the functions that the Banks Kit used to implement on the plugin module for the EECU are actually built into the standard software on the PCM. I strongly suspect that with this much more powerful processor unit, Ford implemented a number of their new "electronic control" features. As I understand it, my rig also contains a "fuel tank pressure" sensor. This produces an output that is monitored for emissions control purposes; i.e. leaving the gas cap open. I don't know if it is part of the FP assembly or a separate connection to the tank. If I had the service manuals for my rig I could look it up. However, 2 or 3 years ago when I was having problems I only bought a month subscription at helmsinc.com to view the manuals on line. This cost only $20 versus buying the manuals on a DVD for $170. I don't know what impact loss of tank pressure has on vehicle operation. I do know that the vehicle will start and still runs as I have forgotten to replace my gas cap a couple of times. For those that are interested in how the some of the diagnostics, etc work, Ford produces (or did produce) a layman's explanation (but quite detailed) of the ODB-II operations. It was being done annually. I found it on the web and it was free. Sorry but I don't remember where on the web to look for it.Doug[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #13 – March 18, 2013, 04:57:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137491"I saw the old FP assembly when I had it replaced on my 2005. I would guess that the secondary fuel outlet used for the genset is "fixed" in place and can't be lowered further into the tank."Doug There are two and three port pumps available. Two port are used for the return-less system. One port is the pressurized fuel supply, from the pump and the other is the evaporative line. Three port pumps use the third port for the fuel return line. I'm not sure if any of the pump ports are used for the generator supply or if there is a separate port into the tank. Since the cutaway chassis is built for RV use, it's possible the tank is specially constructed for this purpose, with a built in generator port. I will let you know when I find out. "As I understand it, my rig also contains a "fuel tank pressure" sensor. This produces an output that is monitored for emissions control purposes; i.e. leaving the gas cap open. I don't know if it is part of the FP" The pressure sensor has its own inlet and is not part of the pump, according to the 2003 FSM. When you get a evaporative leak code, very often it is from a loose or worn fuel cap. The fuel caps get tested in California when smog tested.Larry
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #14 – March 18, 2013, 05:36:48 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137492"The visual includes an inspection of the fuel lines for leaks, mods, cracking, etc" The modification proposed does not change, inhibit or in any way disable any of the smog related equipment, it is just an added back-up, in-line fuel pump, to be used to get the RV safely to a repair facility, in case the in-tank pump fails. Installed correctly, it would not be noticeable to any but the most knowledgeable and through of inspectors. Can't say any vehicle I have tested ever received this kind of attention. The techs do not get paid enough to take the time needed, instead relaying on the OBDII system to provide fault codes, indicating leaks in the evaporative system. Much of the system cannot be seen or accessed without removing the doghouse or a lot of crawling around under the rig. You may have been better trained and more diligent than inspectors I have encountered.Larry
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #15 – March 18, 2013, 06:08:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137497Doug and Larry have given more info than I was able to glean from the service manual. Thank you. A 2006 E-450 appears to be type 3. I found the Fuel Pump control module halfway back on a chassis rail. The first attempt will be to install the fuel pump with pressure gauge attached in place of the fuel filter and run the power from the hot side of the removed 20 amp fuel pump fuse, through a 20 amp fuse, and see what happens. The service manual says the pressure spec is 35-45psi engine off and 25-45psi engine on. If that works we are done but I'll be surprised as it requires current through that fuse to control fuel pressure. I doubt that is true. I would like to tap the bk/pk wire leading into the fuel pump but expect to have trouble accessing it. Parts for this are in the mail. Don't sweat the California emissions. Everything proposed is removable in five minutes.. I'm in Arizona so it is even less concern to me. Arizona doesn't allow mods either but there won't be anything there for them to see. If that doesn't work I'll install a type 1 system and spring for the mechanical regulator with return line and plumb it into the generator fuel line. I already have an on/off valve right before the generator. I'll need a manifold pressure line for the regulator and a fused ignition controlled power source. http://www.amazon.com/Aeromotive-13129-Compact-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B004084DBU/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_3Anyone see any problem with this, speak up before I have an LD bonfire. Harry As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #16 – March 18, 2013, 06:29:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137502"Anyone see any problem with this, speak up before I have an LD bonfire."Harry Remember the fuel pump pressure, in today's vehicles, is relatively high (in the 50-spi range), in comparison the the fuel pumps used with carburetors (5-10 psi range). All the fuel line fittings need to be the factory clip-types or use multiple fuel injection hose clamps. http://www.delcity.net/store/Hose-Clamps-!-Fuel-Injection/p_798729.r_IF1003?gclid=COzx3YWlh7YCFe1_QgodpVQAOw> Any rubber hose, used on the output side of this pump, must be labeled for 'fuel injection use'. Old school fuel line will not handle the high pressure. This includes the existing generator fuel lines, they need to be replaced if you use them for a return line. They should be fine for the supply line to the new pump as long as they are in good condition. If using any new hard lines, with fuel injection hose clamps, slightly flare the ends of the tubing, to provide more clamping security and power. Keep a couple big fire extinguishers available during driveway testing....just in case.Keep us posted.Larry
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #17 – March 18, 2013, 08:08:19 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137508Why not just cut. Circle on the floor install a hatch cover and Cary a spare pump. Seems a lot easier safer and much more likely to work. Garry Ps this has been done more than once but every one on this group seems to fight it.Sent from Garry's iPhone
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #18 – March 18, 2013, 09:17:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137510No doubt we have an aversion to it. We would certainly be open to someone showing the details of how they did it. The wooden floor would need to be sealed from road splash and the opening cover able to handle a 200lb person standing on it. I think it was mentioned several years ago and the MS was not interested
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #19 – March 18, 2013, 11:08:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137517Larry: Removing the doghouse
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #20 – March 19, 2013, 01:59:07 am Yahoo Message Number: 137520" Removing the doghouse in ALL cases is a part of the inspection."Roger You are technically right but I have never had to remove it the four times I have our LDs inspected and the seveal other LDs I have had inspected. All I have ever had is a quick visual inspection to make sure the catalyic converter is presen, plug the machine into the OBDII port, do the gas cap test and then the tail pipe test. The last year, I had the same experiencve at a "Smog test only" station. Heck, I even had one LD test equipped with a K&N that the tech blew out with an air hose, destroying it, before passing it. What should be done and what is actually done are two differnt animals. For $59-69, they usually don't do more than what is absolutely necessary YMMVLarry
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #21 – March 19, 2013, 11:22:00 am Yahoo Message Number: 137527"Larry" wrote: All I have ever had is a quick visual inspection to make sure the catalyic converter is presen, plug the machine into the OBDII port, do the gas cap test and then the tail pipe test. ..... What should be done and what is actually done are two differnt animals. For $59-69, they usually don't do more than what is absolutely necessary YMMV --- My 2003 has had two smog inspections; at the first test, the tester removed the doghouse (and spent a half hour after the test getting it back on and latched correctly!), but the second tester did not. He did only what Larry posted above, handed me the test print out and took my money; in this case, the charge was $75.00 including a $10.00 "discount" coupon.As ever, YMMV.Joan
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #22 – March 19, 2013, 01:23:44 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137533QuoteWe failed a BUNCH of vehicles for K&N air filter intake mods merely because they did not have the proper CARB sticker, or they had a sticker and the number did not match the ARB database for that model.Hi Roger, Does your statement mean that the K&N filters had been modified or only that the filters had been installed on the vehicle? I didn't know that K & N filters required a CARB sticker. Is this something new? A long time ago I installed a K&N FIPK on my 2000 Jeep Cherokee. It didn't come with a CARB sticker. The Jeep has been smog tested at least 5 times w/o it. At the smog test last year the technician said that he could not find my CARB sticker for the K&N but passed the Jeep anyway. Also have K&N (Banks Kit) on my 2005 LD. CARB sticker on the LD only covers the Banks headers. The first time I tried to get a smog test of the LD (November 2010) I had a problem. The CARB sticker Banks put on the LD (they installed the kit) was for their model year 2002 kit and did not cover 2005. (The Banks Kits for 2002 & 2005 are radically different.) I went to Banks in Azusa and met with the engineer that does their work with CARB. He verified that the correct mechanical parts (headers, exhaust, etc) had been installed on my LD. (The headers for 2002 would never fit). He told me that once they removed the electronic components from their kit that they only needed CARB approval for the headers; thus they no longer get the whole kit blessed. In January 2013 I had the LD smog tested again with no questions about the K&N and the test guys know it is there. Back in 2010 I spent a lot of time reading the CARB database on-line and searching it, but don't remember seeing anything about K&N. Of course I wasn't specifically looking for it. Maybe I should look again. Am I missing something here?Doug[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #23 – March 19, 2013, 02:13:39 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137534"Intake mods" not filter elements. ie. changing the intake between filter and throttle body. If no sensors, pcv, thermostatic intake control, evap sensors etc are changed or eliminated and the OE is just a path from the filter to the throttle body, no approval required.
Re: Fuel Pump Back up Reply #24 – March 19, 2013, 09:18:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137550Heh heh, Since my LD is registered
Topic: Fuel Pump Back up (Read 12 times)
previous topic - next topic
Topic: Fuel Pump Back up (Read 12 times)
previous topic - next topic