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Topic: Suspension, balance & ride handling (Read 15 times) previous topic - next topic
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Suspension, balance & ride handling
Yahoo Message Number: 136676
WOW! So much easier to handle. Stable and it doesn't drift around or "baby carriage" at all like it use to. It's not like a car by any means but it does feel like a brand new coach. Much, much better.

 For anyone who drives a car, tires (+ proper inflation), shocks & springs are obvious components that contribute to ride quality. The real shocker for many is just how much higher the ante is raised when driving an RV. Suspension tuning & maintenance goes from "good to have" to "must have".
 I suspect you're also experiencing a higher degree of responsiveness due to your rig being only 23.5' long. (In our case, we have the Chevy G30 chassis for our 22' '93.) As is true for planes, boats & surfboards, all others things being equal, greater mass usually equates to more ponderous response. (Newton's first ie body in motion, yada, yada ...)
 If you really want to improve ride handling, the next item of business is to examine both your fixed & optional weight items and consider how they are stored. In our case, except for the LPG tank & because we don't have an genset, our MP has every single appliance loaded on the passenger side.
 Adding it up, it's over 450lbs - 500 with the 6 gal hot water tank filled. LD designed the coach assuming driver would add 180-200 lbs on the left, and perhaps 25 gallons of fresh water (1/2 tank) would add another 200 to balance out the rig. (A passenger on the right + two kids @ the dinette on the left would offset.)
 Because I want our rig as light as possible, we drive with all tanks empty. This means I had to put in a small bib on the hot water tank so I could keep it empty when not in use in order to reduce the passenger side by 50 lbs.
 The last order of business was to take every heavy item we had stored outside (cast iron Dutch oven, camp stove, hydraulic tire jack, etc) and move them over to the front driver side storage bin. Our rear passenger storage bin is practically useless not only because it's on the right side, but it's behind the rear axle, so we put in just a few lightweight items.
 For the final touches, we have a few heavy items (pop-up tent, camp table) stored in the shower stall on the drive side. Granted, it's behind the rear axle as well, but the driver side storage bin is too small to handle them, and we definitely don't want them on the passenger side bin, so I feel a compromise is OK in this particular instance.
 Taken altogether, it seems like we finally have our rig very well tuned & balanced. The payoff is ride quality - as you observe, it's not really the equal of a car, but boy, it comes pretty darn close.
Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136712
I have spent significant $ on suspension improvements to get my 2005 MB to handle in an acceptable manner.  I know that this is basically a Ford problem with their "twin I-beam derived frontend."  However LD doesn't help the problem.  I asked them to give me the location of the center of gravity and the load weight on each wheel when my rig rolled out of the factory.
They could not do it.
 LD says that they use CAD (Computer Aided Design) to design their products.
However, my feeling is that they use it primarily as a "drafting tool." This is in contrast to some of their competitors (as an example: Borne Free) that does their design work using 3-D modeling software.  They can give you a detailed definition of center of gravity,  wheel loading, etc. even after they have installed options on your rig.  My personal feeling is that LD still designs by the "seat of the pants, trial and error" method.
 I am definitely not complaining about my LD.   It is a quality product and serves me well.  I would, however, like to see them a little bit more progressive and move at least into the 21st century, if only to 2001.

Doug

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Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136715
Doug: we have been very pleased with our 2004 MB handling.  We did get the optional shocks which are now standard.  Weighing at an Escapade was with
Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136716
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 07:49:11 -0800, "Doug Baker" wrote:

Quote
I have spent significant $ on suspension improvements to get my 2005 MB to handle in an acceptable manner. I know that this is basically a Ford problem with their "twin I-beam derived frontend.
We have had a totally different experience. We have not spent a nickel on suspension except for the Bilstens. We filled the bins and had it weighed, everything full, and it was less than 50 pounds difference side-to-side. It has always handled well. Not like a BMW, but as well as E150 vans we have owned. If there is a gale wind, we park. If the road has potholes we slow down until we can find another road.

Don & Dorothy An MB named Koko & a Jeep named Pelli SE21, SC54, NW56 Our Travel Blog: http://travelingdorothy.blogspot.com/ Our Mods Blog http://kokoandpelli.blogspot.com/

Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136721
Quote
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 07:49:11 -0800, "Doug Baker" wrote:
 I have spent significant $ on suspension improvements to get my 2005 MB to handle in an acceptable manner. I know that this is basically a Ford problem with their "twin I-beam derived frontend.
My overloaded 01 23.5 TK porpoised and wobbled badly on bumpy roads. Also when Semi's would pass it would move in the lane a foot or so. After talking with Larry I decided to go to a heavier duty steering stabilizer and Bilstein comfort series shocks. Radically improved the handling. If you have an E-350 based chassis this is the way to go IMHO.

Bob Quartzsite, AZ. for a few...
Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136726
'LD says that they use CAD (Computer Aided Design) to design their products.
However, my feeling is that they use it primarily as a "drafting tool." This is in contrast to some of their competitors (as an example: Borne Free) that does their design work using 3-D modeling software. They can give you a detailed definition of center of gravity, wheel loading, etc. even after they have installed options on your rig. My personal feeling is that LD still designs by the "seat of the pants, trial and error" method.
 I am definitely not complaining about my LD. It is a quality product and serves me well. I would, however, like to see them a little bit more progressive and move at least into the 21st century, if only to 2001.

Doug'

Blasphemy!
 No one would dare complain that Antonio eschewed computers or things digital when building the 'Strad'!*
 Besides, with the inclusion of LED technology, one might argue LD has rocketed past the starship Enterprise in terms of futuristic technology.
 *Okay, a bit tongue-in-cheek . . . my beautiful Taylor 914 guitar was born on a CNC machine (grin).

bumper

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bumper
"Yonder" '05 MB
"WLDBLU" glider trailer
Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136729
Quote
I am definitely not complaining about my LD. It is a quality product and serves me well. I would, however, like to see them a little bit more progressive and move at least into the 21st century, if only to 2001.

Doug�
If you know the weight borne by each wheel, the cg is an easy calculation. Of course knowing that is not particularly informative, as it is the distribution of mass that determines moment of inertia. Two vehicles with identical cg's, similar suspensions and running gear, can have very different handling characteristics. E.g., a mid-engine car, with the engine forward of the transaxle in a rear-wheel-drive has a very low moment of inertia and fast response with neutral handling. A front-engine, rear transaxle vehicle, such as a Miata, will have similar cg, but noticeably slower transitions.
 With it's spread-out mass distribution, my FL behaves as would a Miata with twin I-beam front and solid rear axle...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136730
"LD says that they use CAD (Computer Aided Design) to design their products."
 More likely it's CAD all right, Cardboard-Aided Design. It's the system I use when prototyping metal and wood parts. I do prefer foam board to cardboard.
CAD usually requires a long training period, usually obtained in college classes, and a lot of engineering knowledge. It is normally used by engineers and designers. AFAIK, LD has never had an engineer on staff.
 The programs are very expensive, change every couple of years (requiring additional training, software and hardware upgrades) and need a big computer, monitor and drawing board, none of which I have seen at LD.
Bumper's suggestion that they use a computer for "drafting tool" is the most likely situation, as many drafting programs are not all that difficult to use. You would be amaze what Google SketchUp can produce with a few weeks of practice. Unfortunately, it is just a drafting program and cannot perform the engineering calculations possible in a professional CAD program.

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136732
I've done the "4-wheel weigh" and horizontal CG calcs several times.  Would really like to know the vertical CG as it controls the "roll" of the rig.
 Initially I was several hundred pounds heavy on the right.  Reloaded things and got the difference down to just under 200 lbs;  much of it on the right rear wheel.   If I recall correctly, several years back Steve acknowledged to someone that the MB was "right side heavy."  Maybe this is confirmed by the fact that they have moved the propane tank from the right front side (below dinette) to the left rear side (behind the rear wheel).
 Originally had the Bilstein heavy duty shocks and had one break internally within a year.  After the second year replaced them with Koni ajustable shocks which I run set one notch above the middle.  Results:  better ride, steering a bit "slower", less side-to-side motion on grooved highways.

Doug

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Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136734
"I've done the "4-wheel weigh" and horizontal CG calcs several times. Would really like to know the vertical CG as it controls the "roll" of the rig."

Doug
 The  COG of most cars is near the top and center of engine's bell housing. Would imagine an LD might be somewhat similar since so much weight is concentrated in the chassis. Unlike a car, the COG can change quite a bit, according to how it is loaded. It sways more since the COG (the rotation point) is so high off the ground
 I have carried two full size sea kayaks for years on both our 1983 and 2003 LDs. The 1983 LD's handling would significantly change when the boats were loaded, you definitely could feel the side to side sway and rocking, caused by raising the COG. This was after rebuilding the front suspension, adding custom HD coil springs and Bilsteins. In the rear it had Firestone air bags and Bilsteins The boats, rack and, if loaded with camping gear, weighted about 325lbs.
Interestingly, when the same boats and gear are loaded on our 2003 E450 LD, I can't feel any difference at all. The heavier chassis, suspension and the addition of a rear sway bar is what made the  difference

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
 
Re: Suspension, balance & ride handling
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136740
I have a '08 MB.  Empty, it would, as Doug suggested, be right-side heavy.
 I had mine weighed, all 4 corners, by Henderson Line-up.  I made sure my waste tanks were empty and my gas and fresh water tanks were full, and I sat in the driver seat, matching as best I could my primary travel configuration.  On the front, the left side was 50 pounds heavier than the right.  On the rear, both sides matched.
 All the fresh water sits at the left edge, adding hundreds of pounds to that side.  Adding my weight, which then was well over 300 pounds, to the left seat, my rig balanced beautifully.  Without the water, and without me, the right side would most definitely be significantly heavier than the left - but I don't drive it that way.

Ken F in NM
'08 MB