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Topic: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation? (Read 10 times) previous topic - next topic
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All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Yahoo Message Number: 136181
I'm wondering how the factory delivery of all-LED interior lighting changes the equation for the number of solar panels to meet the "normal" electrical budget for boondocking.
 I expect to be placing an order for delivery of a 27 MB later this year and am interested in hearing thoughts on going with the factory option of two panels vs. factory standard one panel plus aftermarket two additional.  Given the other than lighting drains in a typical boondocking situation, is the third panel still strongly recommended?

Thanks much for the groups wisdom on this decision.

Harvey & Molly (soon-to-be's)
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136185
Quote
I expect to be placing an order for delivery of a 27 MB later this year and am interested in hearing thoughts on going with the factory option of two panels vs. factory standard one panel plus aftermarket two additional.  Given the other than lighting drains in a typical boondocking situation, is the third panel still strongly recommended?
Other than lighting you can make additional conservation moves. E.g., you can install a catalytic heater, which uses no electricity AND is more efficient in propane use than the furnace. If the factory TV is not an LED-lit model, you can try to opt out of it and install your own. Etc.
 As far as the number of panels, bear in mind that if your camping season extends off-season, when shorter days, lower sun angle, and frequent weather will greatly affect your solar resources, the more panels the better.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136186
And, if you want the ability to raise the solar panels, you won't be able to do so with the factory-installed panels since they are permanently mounted (unless they've changed the way they mount the panels recently).

Linda Hylton http://earl-linda.blogspot.com
Linda Hylton
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136187
Quote
"I expect to be placing an order for delivery of a 27 MB later this year and am interested in hearing thoughts on going with the factory option of two panels vs. factory standard one panel plus aftermarket two additional."

Harvey & Molly (soon-to-be's)
Harvey
 Hind sight is a wonderful thing! I wish I'd had some when I ordered my '04 30'IB. As it was, with two panels, when I finally decided I needed to expand, AM Solar determined that the mounting arrangement from the factory was not the most efficient. So the existing panels were dis-mounted and the upgrade arranged accordingly. If it's your intent to upgrade after market, save your money now and use it later to better advantage.

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136197
I'll toss out some random thoughts.
 I have an '11 w/ the two panels.  Late Dec. (southern CA) I had a little less than 7 amps best part of day.
 My '11 still has fluorescent backlit LCD TV.  The newest LDs are equipped with LED TVs.  My '11 is still equipped w/ fluorescent lights.  The newer ones have LED lighting.  I equipped all my incandescent lights with LEDs.   I retrofitted the fluorescent lamps with new clear lenses (for efficiency) and tri phosphor lamps for better color rendering and efficiency.
 LD rates my 20K BTU furnace at about 3 amps.  It may take a bit more in reality.  Less than 4 amps though.
 I have Macbook Air which draws between .5 amp to about an amp max.  I run it directly from 12 volt.  Unless watching DVD no inverter use.
 I have 300 amp hour Lifeline batteries installed by factory in stock location.
 Report from three night trip in Dec.: I typically ran two fluorescent fixtures and two LED fixtures at night till about 11 pm.  Used laptop most nights.  Watched a DVD one night with 150 watt sine inverter.  Furnace set at about 70 in evening, down to 63 while sleeping down to 40 degrees outside.  Probably about 30 percent duty cycle on furnace at night, none during day. Fridge on, occasional use of fans during cooking.  Charging and operation of smartphone.
 Final morning as I recall batteries read 12.65 volts before solar kicked in.  Drove about 50 miles home with alternator charging house batteries.  Solar continued to charge  at max rate when I left the motorhome in storage.  Returned the next day batteries appeared to be charged.  14.65 volt amp draw about 2.
 I'll estimate the batteries would be good for the above type of travel in mild winter for at least four to five  nights.  With more conservation longer run time of course.  In summer there would be more power generated but also more consumed by fans.  I do think my installation requires some driving, generator time, or more solar capacity for extended boondocking without relocating.
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136199
FWIW I'm not disagreeing with anyone who suggests a custom solar installation.  But I do think if you go that route, you'll pretty much have to rewire the whole system.  Controller placement by factory is far from batteries in my case, with wiring certain to be undersized.
 What I'm going to do as a next step doesn't involve the solar.  If I find I need more power, I'm going to install a second charger located very near the batteries.  Something along the line of the DLS5512 http://inverterpowercenter.com/tier4/batt_chargers_detail.html which will pound the batteries hard at at least 14.85 volts.   This unit draws 13 amps AC which is max I can run on one of the LD's 15 amp circuits.  I will have it on a switch where I can fast charge the batteries as needed.
 The stock converter location is far from the batteries in my case.  Again it would need a replacement and rewiring to maximize charge rate.
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136201
"I'm going to install a second charger located very near the batteries. Something along the line of the DLS5512 http://inverterpowercenter.com/tier4/batt_chargers_detail.html which will pound the batteries hard at at least 14.85 volts."
 If you wish to 'pound the batteries', to minimized generator run time, here are bigger chargers available that run on 120-VAC power.
I have used a Progressive Dynamics PD9270C 70-amp converter for five years and have seen charge rates up to 68-amps. It fit is the stock converter's location.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157603671199053/
 Many models lend themselves to either running new 4-gauge wires from the power center to the battery or adding a second pair of 8-gauge wire, connected in parallel.
Adding a separate charger isn't a bad idea but it does take room, in a ventilated place, and requires running 120-VAC power to it.

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136202
I'm with Steve S. on this.
 If anything, see if you can get them to install a length of 1' PVC pipe (or two 3/4') from roof to under chassis floor as near to the battery box as practicable (this would be next to and just forward of the fridge in the MB). This would be used to install wiring in the future for solar, antennas etc..
 They will refuse, no doubt, but it's worth a try. If they'll do it, it'll be easier and cleaner than the usual 'down the back of the fridge' route.

bumper

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bumper
"Yonder" '05 MB
"WLDBLU" glider trailer
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136207
"The stock converter location is far from the batteries in my case. Again it would need a replacement and rewiring to maximize charge rate. "
 Last year the original converter/charger in my 2005 MB failed.  I replaced it with a 60-amp PowerMax "Boondocker" converter/charger that I purchased from Best Converters.  I didn't put install it in the same physical location as the original unit (underneath the AC/DC power panel).
 On my mid-bath the batteries are in a "fiberglass" compartment that is under the refrigerator.  The area outside this compartment can be accessed by removing the liner panels of the cupboard under the refrigerator.  There is about 5-inches of space between the forward end of the battery compartment and the wall the of the cupboard.  I put a plywood mounting panel on the inside of the cupboard wall and mounted my converter/charger to it.  My converter/charger is about 11" long, 8" wide, 3.5" high and weighs 8 pounds; about the same size, and looks much like, the battery charger you are considering.  It is mounted vertically with the fan at the bottom.  There is plenty of air flow in this area for the unit.
 In this position, the "charge loop" is about 5 feet of wire.  The negative side is about 2 feet of #00 welding cable and the positive side is about 3 feet of #4.  AC power is brought to the converter/charger on #14 w/Ground romex connected to the original circuit breaker in the AC distribution panel and terminated at a duplex outlet mounted near the converter/charger. (A very easy wire pull on a mid-bath).  I also have the shunt for my Link 10 battery monitor and a 60-amp Maxi-fuse mounted on the plywood panel.
Getting everything to fit took some work; the biggest issue being space to bend the cables.  I have been this for about 18 months and it works great.
 Personally, if I were you, I would skip the separate battery charger and just replace the existing converter/charger.  Larry suggested the model that he uses.  I don't know if it would fit into the space like mine.  The PowerMax Boondocker comes in 75 amp and 100 amp models too and they are about the same size as mine.  I believe that the larger models have "power factor" correction for the AC line which lowers the peak current drawn.
 I have not looked at a recent mid-bath so don't know if the space I used still exists.  I don't have any pictures of my installation, but if you are interested in doing it I will write down how I did the job.  It took a couple of attempts before I got it to work.

Doug

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Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136208
Thanks Larry.  Are you located in or near southern CA?
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136214
Quote
which will pound the batteries hard at at least 14.85 volts.   This unit draws 13 amps AC which is max I can run on one of the LD's 15 amp circuits.  I will have it on a switch where I can fast charge the batteries as needed.
'Pounding' the batteries at 14.85V is a bad idea, because you will also be pounding every electronic appliance connected and on. The design voltage limit for many of these is about 14.5V. Note that putting consumed charge back into the batteries involves a high-ampere charge rate, which can be achieved at a lower voltage when the battery is depleted. Once the battery reaches about 14.3V, it will not accept a lot of current. Raising that to 14.85V will not increase the current flow to the batteries, but could damage whatever is sharing the circuits.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136217
"I'm going to install a second charger... which will pound the batteries hard at at least 14.85 volts."
 Concorde's manual for your Lifeline AGM batteries recommends 14.2-14.4 volts as the maximum charging voltage, with 15.5 volts permissible only for eight hours as a conditioning measure "when the battery is showing symptoms of capacity loss." (In other words, once in a blue moon, and probably not at all for the first several years you own the batteries.)
 More important, I know from what I've read elsewhere that subjecting AGM batteries to excessive voltage (and 14.85 V certainly fits that description) on a regular basis is likely to damage them. AGMs are more susceptible to damage that way than regular flooded-cell batteries.
 Besides, jacking up the voltage beyond recommended limits will not charge your batteries any faster. On the other hand, supplying more current will... at least, within the batteries' ability to accept charge. (And AGMs can accept charge faster than flooded-cell batteries.) But the Iota DLS-5512 charger you mentioned supplies only 55 amps. As Larry pointed out, you can do a lot better than that with a 70-amp Progressive Dynamics charger, AND maintain the correct maximum 14.4 V charging voltage.
 Another drawback to the DLS-5512: unlike the P-D models, it isn't an "intelligent" three-stage charger. Its spec sheet makes a vague reference to going into float mode at some point, but it apparently spends most of its time in brute-force "bulk" mode. Want three-stage operation? You have to shell out for the IOTA IQ Smart Charger add-on.
 Bottom line: this isn't a good choice. It won't charge your batteries as fast as it could, and if set to 14.85V, it will eventually damage them. Aside from that, it simply makes no sense to carry around an underpowered standalone battery charger, when what you really need is a good built-in converter like the 70-amp PD9270C model that Larry mentioned. It's a much better way to go: faster, safer for your batteries... better all around.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
 
Re: All LED interior lights change solar panel recommendation?
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136219
Thanks Andy.  Hopefully I won't need any more upgrades at all..