Synthetic ATF December 08, 2011, 01:27:59 pm Yahoo Message Number: 127213Anyone have any first hand experience with synthetic ATF for '02 E450? Going up a grade towing my Ford Ranger sometimes produces temps in the 220F range. My understanding is that the synthetic will tolerate higher operating temps. Ford also recommends Synthetic Differential Fluid for heavy duty service.
Re: Synthetic ATF Reply #1 – December 08, 2011, 02:38:50 pm Yahoo Message Number: 127216On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 19:27:54 -0000, "Roger" r.nickey@...> wrote:QuoteAnyone have any first hand experience with synthetic ATF for '02 E450? Going up a grade towing my Ford Ranger sometimes produces temps in the 220F range. I have no info on synthetics. I would be concerned about the temp, more than a fluid that can handle the temp. The curb weight of a 2005 Ranger is 3,000. I tow almost 1,000 pounds more than that and the tran temp only gets into the 190's up LONG steep grades.Does the 2002 have a cooler? If not, that would be where I would start.If you have a cooler, do you have the truck loaded up? Have you weighed both vehicles?Just trying to figure why the temp is so much higher when the curb weights are so different.
Re: Synthetic ATF Reply #2 – December 08, 2011, 03:39:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 127218My trans shop says the E450 super duty has the largest trans cooler that Ford installs on the Econoline. They have tried an additional cooler with a fan and gotten no better temps.What gear and what RPM are you using for those LONG steep grades?
Re: Synthetic ATF Reply #3 – December 08, 2011, 06:00:18 pm Yahoo Message Number: 127221Roger Are you having problems with your transmission or just curious if you might have a problem? E450s have large cooling systems with reports of transmission overheating problems rare. Occasional temps into the 220 degree range shouldn't be a problem, it's an accumulative thing. We have towed a 4000-lb Jeep around 35,000 miles behind our 2003 LD. It has climbed most of the bigger grades in the West...some many times. The ScanGauge shows that the transmission temperature usually sits in the 180-200 degree range, with the temperature rising on long, steep grades, especially on hot days, as high as 230 degrees. As soon as the grade decreases, the temps come down. I bet you would find that most LDs, towing heavy vehicles experience similar temps. A good way to determine if you transmission is running to hot is the condition of the trans fluid. Our LD's transmission fluid has been changed twice, at the conservative HD 30,000 mile intervals, and both times it looked very good and smelled unburnt. If really interested in finding you have a problem, Google "transmission fluid oil analysis' and send a sample to a lab for definitive answer. There is also the slight possibility the temperature sensor is out of calibration. Changing the fluid more often, using regular dino oil, may be a cheaper way of getting the same benefits of using a high-cost synthetic. Synthetic's main advantage is its ability to maintain its lubricating properties, at high temps, over a long period of time before breaking down. To get the full advantage and your money's worth out of synthetic oils, change intervals should be lengthened. Years ago, I posted how we ran a long-term test, on the City's fleet at LAX, comparing synthetic vs. dino engine oil. Regular oil analysis was run on a selected sampling of vehicles. The testing showed regular dino oil was fine for the Factory recommended change intervals of 7500 miles. The synthetics looked good out to over 12,000 miles. It was decided to stay with dino oil due to wanting to examined each vehicle closely at least every 7500 miles, so it was also a convenient time to change the oil. After so many decades of dealing with mechanical things, I almost never disagree with Factory maintenance recommendations, especially lubricants. If Ford does not call for synthetic transmission fluid, even when used for towing, there is a very good chance they might know what they are talking about. On the other hand, Ford does call for a synthetic differential fluid, as you mentioned, for towing.Larry
Re: Synthetic ATF Reply #4 – December 08, 2011, 06:28:19 pm Yahoo Message Number: 127222Larry: Thanks for your input. I did spend 14 years with Unocal. The oil temp is only part of the problem. Many internal parts of the trans, especially seals are temp sensitive. The consensus of most of us and several trans shops that I am aquainted with all agree on the 220-230F pull over and rest philosophy (and I will continue to do this). By the time the fluid starts to smell, it is way past its prime. The synthetic will still survive and protect wear sensitive parts far beyond the safe temp for internal parts and seals. What I see the main benefit of synthetic is that even with the higher temps, you can go up to 50,000 miles between drain intervals while still protecting the parts. I had been changing the oill at about 15000 after heavy towing and I should be able to offset the increased cost by not changing as often. BTW, I so use the scanguage to monitor trans temp. I have always been curious where the trans temp sensor picks up its info.
Re: Synthetic ATF Reply #5 – December 08, 2011, 11:51:32 pm Yahoo Message Number: 127225"The consensus of most of us and several trans shops that I am aquainted with all agree on the 220-230F pull over and rest philosophy"Roger It can't hurt to run synthetic fluid or to pull over, if the temps hits 220, but I do wonder if it is it necessary or beneficial. I question the temperature "consensus" since I can't find any recommendations online from any of the auto manufacturers or the SAE (Society of Automobile Engineers ) to confirm that 220-230 is in the danger range. I would like to see any reputable technical papers on the subject you may have links to.Interesting that the 220-230-F numbers have been thrown around for at least forty years and it's even more interesting that most, if not all of the warnings occur on commercial sites selling synthetic fluids or transmissions oil coolers. Material engineering has hugely improved since the 1960s and today oil seals and friction materials can easily be made to operate happily in 300+ degree oil. It's the transmission fluid that deteriorates faster at higher temps and a longer life is the major advantage of synthetic fluids. The link below is to a Toyota technical training paper, on automatic transmission fluid, which states; "ATF temperatures reach around 212 F at normal speed and up to about 300 F under severe operating conditions" A quick, instructive read. It would appear that Toyota's normal operating temperature is almost at the '220-F danger point'. Toyota is known for durable transmissions and maybe they build them so that they can withstand higher temperatures than Ford...maybe. The Toyota technical paper's last paragraph state that oil run at 195 F has a service life of 50,000 miles. Since our LD's transmission runs 98% of the time at an average of around 190 F, the 30,000 mile Factory change interval, using dino oil, would appear to be conservative. Synthetic oil may stay usable many times longer than dino oil but the transmission filter should still be replaced at the Factory recommended intervals, eliminating much of the potential savings. FYI-Some newer cars come with Factory sealed transmissions, filled with synthetic fluid, that have no recommended fluid or filter change intervals. Progress marches on.Larry
Re: Synthetic ATF Reply #6 – December 09, 2011, 02:23:08 am Yahoo Message Number: 127226I added Banks Transmission temperature and engine oil temperature gauges to my 2001 27 RB V10 E450. The scales are non-linear with infrequent numeric marks making it difficult to read the exact temperature between the labeled marks. I tow a 1997 Jeep Wrangler up Angeles Crest Highway on hot days and had readings on the gauge of 220 to 230 when the air temp was 95 degrees or more. I was concerned at these temperatures. I looked into a bigger cooler, but my hitch provider said, after inspection, that the stock Ford cooler was big and there was no room for a larger cooler. Also I have a big cast aluminum transmission plan to boost fluid volume and cooling ability, a Banks heavy duty torque converter, and Banks Trans Command. Later I put in a Scan Gauge II and programmed it for the Transmission Temperature. At the "high" temperature levels I found the digital Scan Gauge readings were about 20 degrees lower than the analog Banks gauge readings. I do not know if the sensors are in two different locations thus giving two different readings, but I suspect that the analog gauge was not calibrated. I chose to believe the Scan Gauge rather than the Banks gauge and have not encountered transmission temperatures over 220 degrees on the Scan Gauge. I do not worry anymore but still watch both gauges closely on hot days. In spite of my close monitoring of temperatures, changing fluid, and the big tranny pan, my 4R100 4 speed transmission failed - like so many others - this year at just under 50,000 miles. I had no "engine braking" when down shifting on grades. After a $2800 transmission rebuild at an independent Auto Club recommended transmission shop an 27 quarts of synthetic ATF, everything is working as it should again.Terry Tanner 2001 27 RB in Los Angeles
Re: Synthetic ATF Reply #7 – December 09, 2011, 09:50:09 am Yahoo Message Number: 127227I have been running Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF (also Mobil 1 in engine) of my 2000 E450 based SOB for the past 14,000 miles (now at 54,000) with absolutely no adverse effects. I did change the filter when I installed the Mobil 1 in the A/T and I rarely see over 205 degrees on my ScanGage II for transmission temperature towing my 'for sale' 1998 RAV-4 which weighs 2,800# in the mountains of northern Arizona where the outside temperatures can reach over 100 degrees. As a side note, Ford has discontinued the availability of Mercon in 2006 and now recommends Mercon V. As always, YMMV!!Glen w/SOB[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Synthetic ATF Reply #8 – December 09, 2011, 10:34:15 am Yahoo Message Number: 127229"Larry" wrote: After so many decades of dealing with mechanical things, I almost never disagree with Factory maintenance recommendations, especially lubricants. --- Sticking with the Ford manual's factory-recommended fluids, lubricants, scheduled maintenance points and intervals, and "procedures" works for me; I figure that the Ford engineers know their products' requirements, and at 70,000 trouble-free miles, I plan to continue the manual-recommended regimen.As ever, YMMV.Joan
Re: Synthetic ATF Reply #9 – December 09, 2011, 11:48:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 127230Hi, If your Ford tranny runs Dextron, then you should be using Dextron VI at the next ATF change. It is fully synthetic. It is not recommend by GM to use the older Dextron III/IV ATF that you commonly find because all the licenses to produce that product have expired. I know this because I just finished a partial rebuild on my Oldsmobile Aurora 4 speed trans which calls for Dextron III. It was a 3 speed at the time I used Dextron VI which was the same price as Dex III at Wally. Check the Ford specs for your trans. My 97 LD uses Dex/Merc but on the next change I will use Dex/Merc MaxLife by Valvoline which is fully synthetic.I have a Banks trans oil temp sensor installed at the recommended location on the side casing of my E40D trans. The trans temp rarely gets over 180 on a hot day pulling a Jeep Wrangler with 32 inch tires. The pull coming out of LA to Vegas near Baker pushed the trans to near 200 on that day, and it was near 90.For more info on Dextron... http://www.sandyblogs.com/techlink/2009/05/dexron-vi.html Lot of info on vehicular oil in general go here... http://www.bobistheoilguy.comHTH...Chuck Myers 97LD Skye Hartford, IA[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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