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Topic: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure (Read 18 times) previous topic - next topic
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Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Yahoo Message Number: 117465
We have a 2004 RB for which an air bag suspension system was installed by Henderson's Line-up in Grants Pass, OR shortly after delivery in 2004.  After 100+ miles of somewhat rough/washboard gravel road driving over the last month in Central Idaho and SE Oregon, I think I heard a "bang" yesterday above the din of rattles and jolts at the end of the last stretch of such driving for this trip, and the system completely failed.  The rear end is now very low to the ground.  We limped back to Portland today (towing!)--a very unpleasant driving experience.
 Does anyone have experience with this problem, who can offer insight and advice?  I prefer not to drive all the way to Henderson's for repair and wonder if these systems can be repaired in the Portland area.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Ted
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117466
Quote
We have a 2004 RB for which an air bag suspension system was installed by Henderson's Line-up in Grants Pass, OR shortly after delivery in 2004.
Is this installation a complete replacement for the rear suspension or simply an air-bag assist for the Ford stock setup? If the latter, I don't see why the rig should ride so low, unless you are heavily overloaded. In either case it is unlikely the bags on both sides should fail simultaneously, which means you should be canted to one side. If not, I would suspect an air line blew, which would be a relatively easy fix if so.

Note that no air-bag system alone will increase your GVWR.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117470
I have to wonder why Henderson's would install an air bag suspension on brand new coach. Doing so doesn't increase the Ford chassis' cargo carrying capacity, and if the rear end is so heavily loaded that it's sagging visibly without the air bags, you are almost certainly way over your CCC. In short (and the suspension experts here can check me on this), I can't see any reason to install air bags on a new, late-model coach.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117471
Depending on how they were installed, air bags could enable the Lazy Daze to corner much better.

That was one of my most missed features in both of our Lazy Dazes compared to both of our Foretravels. Our 1997 & 1999 two axle Foretravels have a total of 8 air bags at the extreme width of the coach. Such Foretravels corner like they are on rails and going around corners at highway speeds feels much more comfortable.

As to sagging without air bags, so would a Foretravel. The air bags ARE the suspension. There are no "backup springs." This might explain why the Lazy Daze sagged.
___ best, paul "Thriving not surviving" Some once thought a million chimps would in time type great old works of literature Now that we have the Internet we know that not to be true.......
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117474
Very valid points, but as Paul just posted, there is a ride/handling difference potentially. From the sounds of the original post, I would guestimate that this was a complete rear-suspension swap to one of the aftermarket rear suspension systems (as others have pointed out, if these were just supplemental bags, the rear would just slightly sag).
There have been a few companies that offer a system that completely does away with the leaf-springs of the original Ford system. The leaf springs accomplish several things:
1. They locate (keep in alignment) the rear axle so that the vehicle travels  straight
2. They support the weight
3. They offer progressive rates (notice how some of the leafs go  full-length, others just partial, each is an individual spring rate, as the  longer springs compress first, then load is transfered to the next longest,  as it flexes, load is then transfered to the next longest, and so on). And  example could be: 1,000lbs compresses by 1", 2,000lbs compresses by 1.5",  etc. This gets very complex when you add cornering forces, and then a bump  in mid-corner
4. They offer friction to reduce bounciness (both a plus and a minus). All  leaf and coild springs have internal friction (coils are actually twisting,  leafs are actually bending), and most modern leafs have glides that help  reduce the friction between the leafs.
5. They are inexpensive  Many leaf sprung vehicles also have an additional piece to help locate the  position of the rear axle, usually a single bar, properly known as a Panhard  rod (also called a Track Bar by many) which is a single bar that usually is  just behind the rear axle, mounts to the axle on one side, and the chassis  on the opposite side. This takes much of the side-load off of the leafs,  allowing them to be designed more for vertical load control. However, such a  single bar by nature (geometry) scribes an arc, so the axle no longer moves  perfectly up and down, but slightly to the side also ( A two bar system  calls Watts Linkage addresses this, but I do not remember seeing it in light  truck usage)    A 4 (or 5) link rear suspension actually addresses and improves on many of  these areas as below:
1. They can locate the position of the rear axle, and address side loads  while scribing a much better arc
2. They are easily adjusted to alter ride height and can easily level the  chassis to any angles desired (within reason of course)
3. They offer linear rates, simpler to calculate and predict. As in:  1,000lbs will compress by 1", and 2,000lbs will compress by 2", etc.
4. They offer very little internal friction, so all bounciness must be dealt  with seperately, actually using a shock absorber for this ride control. So  typically the shocks must be changed to shocks valved specifically for these  systems. This is one of the biggest improvements in the ride
5. If a system is both front and back, it can actually offer air-levelling  for camping. This is what most busses and many high-end motorhomes also. No  additional levelers needed, saving weight, complexity, and space
6. The biggest drawbacks are that they are not designed and manufactured to
 the same qualities as original systems, and there are the potetial for leaks and failures (plus, when the bushings wear (and they will), you need to find someone that knows how and where to get the repair parts from.
 Overall, an aftermarket rear air suspension can offer a measurable benefit in ride comfort and control, but there are serious factors to consider.
Weighing into that decision should be how you plan to use the coach, such as, are you a road-warrior driving many miles, then spending little time camped, or are you someone that spends a lot of time camped, and only connects these camp time with short drives (like Andy)?

Hopefully this adds a little bit of clairity.

Ken Sann

Wannabe in SoCal
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117476
"I would guestimate that this was a complete rear-suspension swap to one of the aftermarket rear suspension systems (as others have pointed out, if these were just supplemental bags, the rear would just slightly sag)."
 Great post, Ken! Thanks for the detailed explanation. I had been assuming these were just supplementary airbags, not a complete rear-suspension replacement.

So that brings us back to Steve's comment:
 "it is unlikely the bags on both sides should fail simultaneously, which means you should be canted to one side. If not, I would suspect an air line blew, which would be a relatively easy fix."

That makes a lot of sense to me.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117483
"I would guestimate that this was a complete rear-suspension swap to one of the aftermarket rear suspension systems (as others have pointed out, if these were just supplemental bags, the rear would just slightly sag)."
 I have seen different variations of air bags. some totally replace the rear suspension, as Sam described. Other just supplement the existing springs, usually done on overloaded rig.
Another variation is to remove most of the leaf spring except the main leaf, to keep its axle locating properties, and then add the air bags to regain the weight carrying capacity.
 Any of these methods seem to problematic to me. The stock suspension may ride hard but it is near bulletproof. For those of us who venture out into the back roads, having the dependability of the Factory suspension is a real plus. Airbags get holes in them, air lines break or leak and the control systems are prone to problems. It is difficult to beat the dependability of a Factory suspension that has millions of dollars worth of research dedicated to it.
Airbag replacement parts are not locally available and it may be even harder to find someone who is familiar with them out in the boonies.
If I owned an air bag suspended LD, I would want to carry an extra bag and a air-line repair kit.
BTW, I equipped the front and back of our old 183 LD with air bags so I do have experience with this. In retrospect, upgrading to better springs would have been a better choice and much more dependable.
 Now for my rant. Through the years I have worked and looked at many LDs equipped with various suspension devices sold by Hendersons of Grants Pass, Or. They seem to do good work but they also sell a lot of unnecessary suspension add-on.  One of my favorites is the panhard rod kit for the rear of the E450.  For those of you automotive fans, panhard rods are used on coil spring suspensions, not leaf springs. I remember Steve (aq433) bringing this up when, several years ago, one of the forum members went to Hendersons and got about $4000 worth of suspension work done on a new LD, including a panhard rod My point is to be careful going to Hendersons, they tend to sell you everything they can.

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117489
Ted, we've done a lot of speculating here, but I'd appreciate hearing the straight scoop from you. What kind of air bags exactly are these? Were they a complete replacement for the original rear suspension, or were they a supplemental type such as Firestone Ride-Rite air bags? And why did you feel it necessary to install them on a new coach? Inquiring minds would like to know. ;-)

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117492
Larry said "My point is to be careful going to Hendersons, they tend to sell you everything they can."
 That was not my experience.  They checked my coach over and said all that I needed was a minor front end alignment.  I felt that they dealt fairly with me.  As a side note, I recently had to replace a front tire which had been damaged by a front end alignment problem.  I had driven 20,000 miles before Hendersons, and 2000 miles since.  That confirms, to me, what Hendersons told me.

Ken F in CA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'08 MB
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117498
Well, folks, I should have known better than to provide this distinguished group with a thumbnail sketch of the data.  Thank you all for responding so thoughtfully, as usual.  Here is the data (answers to your questions, I hope)
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117500
Quote
Well, folks, I should have known better than to provide this distinguished group with a thumbnail sketch of the data.  Thank you all for responding so thoughtfully, as usual.  Here is the data (answers to your questions, I hope) in chronological order:
Well, I think this answers the main question, then:
 http://stengelbros.3dcartstores.com/RD950F-4_p_1591.html

It is indeed a complete replacement rear suspension, and that is why it collapsed completely instead of simply losing a little stiffness. It is also possible that with a stiff enough sway bar in the rear, a ruptured air bag on one side could cause the symptoms. However, it could also be a ruptured common line or failed valve, which would probably be much more easily repaired. Too bad the PO didn't just try the sway bars and Konis first...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117503
Ted,
 Well well, this a very interesting tale and a great example of the small LD world.  I came with
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117506
"tedpdx"  wrote:
2. 07/04: Henderson's installed the following major components: ReycoGranning
 AirGlide Drive Axle Air Suspension system (Model RD950F), Haldex Controlled Response Height Control Valve (Model L31177), Gast oil-less piston air pump/compressor, front and rear Koni shocks, front and rear IPD sway bars, and Safe T Plus steering control. Total Cost: $8,500.
--- Ted, thank you for posting these clarifications of the "air bag" system. I am truly and jaw-droppingly stunned (and I'm pretty hard to "stun"!) at the number, extent, and costs of these "modifications"; I can only think that the original owner must have been *desperately* unhappy with the ride of his original LD and *insisted* that the shop do this major suspension overkill to one poor little E450 chassis!
 Henderson's, and I would think, most shops, will (however recluctantly) make these mods at a customer's insistence, and we have no way of knowing if they tried to talk the original owner out of making such massive and fundamental changes! I do have IPD (now Roadmaster) front and rear anti-sway bars and a Safe-T-Plus,  installed by Henderson's, pressure-free and at my request, and I'm generally satisfied with the resulting handling improvements. But, obviously, the above are only realatively minor "lily gildings"; the "air bag" system installed on your LD is a totally different animal from simple add-on air bags, and I hope that others can provide some suggestions. I think that your best resources for repairing and maintaining this system are the individual component manufacturers. Their websites should be able to provide shop/service recommendations if you aren't able to get the rig back to Henderson's.

Good luck, and please let us know how this situation is resolved.

Joan
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117507
Thanks for posting the details, Ted, and I'm really sorry to hear about your experience. Seems to me your best bet at this point is to call Henderson's, if you haven't already, and ask them what to do next.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117509
"Any further thoughts, comments, questions, suggestions? Thanks"

Ted
 After you get the suspension fixed, you need to decide if you are up to dealing with the problems such a sophisticated sir suspension.
On the positive side, many HD commercial trucks have use similar systems for hundred of millions of miles. The difference is that the entire installation was designed by engineers that spent millions to get it right.
Your installation is pieced together from many parts and it is easy to mount something a little wrong that causes an air line or bag to blow out. It may never be right and the only folks who seem to know the system are far away in Grant's Pass.
It would be my inclination to putter with it, for many months, to get the installation right but, unless you are are compulsive mad scientist type, you might be better off selling and getting a conventional LD IMO.
Maybe Hendersons still has the original axle available. I wonder how much the chassis has been modified to accept the new air suspension.
 If you keep it,  you might want to become  knowledgeable about how it is installed and works.
Carrying an air line repair kit and a extra air bag might be a good idea as well as way of jumping or bypassing the the controls and compressor so it each air bag can be independently aired with outboard air compressor.
Luckily, the plastic air lines and manual valves are commonly available and easy to work with.
If you intend on driving on gravel and dirt, the air lines need to armored and the bag set up to keep small rocks from getting stuck in positions where they can cut or wear a hole in a bag.
There are air bag system made for Jeeps and other off-road vehicles so it can be done, with enough time and money.

Keep us posted on how this works.
Good luck.

Larry

Good luck and keep us posted.

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: Sudden, complete air bag suspension failure
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 117558
I think that your best resources for repairing and maintaining this system are the individual component manufacturers. Their websites should be able to provide shop/service recommendations if you aren't able to get the rig back to Henderson's.

Quote
Good luck, and please let us know how this situation is resolved.

Joan
Great suggestion, Joan.  Had long conversation with Brandon at Reyco Granning and he walked me through the diagnostic process needed to isolate the problem.  He also provided a dealer/service name in Portland.  I will take it there and, armed now with how the diagnostic procedure should be conducted and what the possible failure points are, have them perform it.

Thanks--Ted
UPDATE (problem solved): Sudden, complete air bag suspension failu
Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 118722
"Air bag" suspension system repaired today.  Manufacturer (Reyco-Granning) referred me to several Oregon and Washington service centers.  I chose the closest--Terry's Diesel and RV Repair
 
Re: UPDATE (problem solved): Sudden, complete air bag suspension f
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 118729
"tedpdx"  wrote: "Air bag" suspension system repaired today.
--- Thanks for the update, Ted; I always appreciate hearing "the rest of the story" and finding out the diagnosis and resolution. Many times, posters will describe a puzzling problem, receive feedback, then  disappear, and we never find out what the problem/solution was.
 I hope posters will post the outcomes of their "find it and fix it" queries; all the end story reports add to the knowledge base. Thanks.

Joan
2003 TK has a new home