AM Solar's new panels April 29, 2010, 05:55:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112235This new product line at AM Solar might interest some LDers! http://amsolar.com/RVseries.html Joan
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #1 – April 30, 2010, 12:24:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 112252Quote This new product line at AM Solar might interest some LDers! http://amsolar.com/RVseries.html Joan Hey, those are cute! Greg has come up with a really innovative product family for RV use. All the panels have the same voltage rating. This allows using any member of the family to be used to fill up areas available on your RV roof. You know, "I have a large area here, so I will use two 150 Watt panels but there is this dab of an area over there is so small that only a 50 Watt panel will fit. Then you just hook all of them in parallel and they act like a matched set of panels. Neat. Note that the price is in the $3 to $4 per Watt range. It used to be a lot closer to $5 per WattLinley
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #2 – April 30, 2010, 12:50:42 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112258I really like the idea of a family of panels to suit the space problems of many RV roofs. I like the price tag of the 100 watt panel too. They've stopped the free shipping special, but the reduced price makes up for that. I would question why they decided to go with 40 cell panels as opposed to the previous 44 cell units. Will make for a challange for anyone with 44 cell panels to add to them, as 44 cell panels are not that easy to find. Folks won't be able to rave as much about the "boost" their controllers give them either. Speaking of controllers, interesting to note that they have discontinued their HPV-30 controller in favor of the high quality Morningstar TriStar 45 controller. I really wish they would stop exagerating the capability of their controllers tho. They used to say the HPV-30 was capable of 600 watts when its 30 amp capacity was really capable of only about 400 watts (at 13.3 V battery voltage). Now they are implying that their RV100-TS45 System is capable of up to 900 watts when even Morningstar says their controller is capable of up to 600 watts which makes much more sense (45A x 13.3V = 599 W). If anyone has been thinking of adding a panel to their 44 cell systems, I'd be interested in finding out what their plan would be for them. Replace all their panels???Rich Gort - 2000 MB - Birch Bay, WA
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #3 – April 30, 2010, 01:42:13 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112261Quotethat. I would question why they decided to go with 40 cell panels as opposed to the previous 44 cell units. Will make for a challange for anyone with 44 cell panels to add to them, as 44 cell panels are not that easy to find. Folks won't be able to rave as much about the Speaking of controllers, interesting to note that they have discontinued their HPV-30 controller in favor of the high quality Morningstar TriStar 45 controller. I really wish they would stop exagerating the capability of their controllers tho. They used to say the HPV-30 was capable of 600 watts when its 30 amp capacity was really capable of only about 400 watts (at 13.3 V battery voltage). Rich, I have similar concerns to yours with regards many of AM Solar's claims. Now they spec out the new 100-watt panels identically to the old 44-cell models, including maximum power-point voltage and current. This would mean that they would be fully compatible with the 44-cell AM-100's. However, I am suspicious of their specs, and so far e-mail communication re other issues have not been answered. I simply don't see how the voltage could be the same, even with improved efficiency. I would also be interested if anyone purchasing the new panels and using them alone would be willing to measure the actual panel output voltage for verification. When measured at the array side of an MPPT controller, the voltage should be very close to that claimed, if it is an accurate spec. Your comments on the controller issue are a contributing reason why I went with another brand, where a reliable full spec disclosure WAS available.Steve
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #4 – April 30, 2010, 03:39:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112265Quote that. I would question why they decided to go with 40 cell panels as opposed to the previous 44 cell units. Will make for a challange for anyone with 44 cell panels to add to them, as 44 cell panels are not that easy to find. Folks won't be able to rave as much about the Speaking of controllers, interesting to note that they have discontinued their HPV-30 controller in favor of the high quality Morningstar TriStar 45 controller. I really wish they would stop exagerating the capability of their controllers tho. They used to say the HPV-30 was capable of 600 watts when its 30 amp capacity was really capable of only about 400 watts (at 13.3 V battery voltage). Rich, I have similar concerns to yours with regards many of AM Solar's claims. Now they spec out the new 100-watt panels identically to the old 44-cell models, including maximum power-point voltage and current. This would mean that they would be fully compatible with the 44-cell AM-100's. However, I am suspicious of their specs, and so far e-mail communication re other issues have not been answered. I simply don't see how the voltage could be the same, even with improved efficiency. I would also be interested if anyone purchasing the new panels and using them alone would be willing to measure the actual panel output voltage for verification. When measured at the array side of an MPPT controller, the voltage should be very close to that claimed, if it is an accurate spec. Your comments on the controller issue are a contributing reason why I went with another brand, where a reliable full spec disclosure WAS available.Steve I was just about to buy some Kyocera 135 watt when the AM Solar 150 watt was mentioned in this group. I have no solar set up at the moment and must have my electrical finished in 30 days (I'm doing this myself and my apartment lease expires at the end of May). I expect to travel and to never stay in RV parks. My biggest consumer is a laptop, if I keep everything else using propane. If I don't use propane heavily I have a 1200 watt electric kettle and a 350 watt rice cooker that I would bring with me. Of the four combination I can think of, which is best? Each combination is two solar panels and one MPPT controller.1 - AM Solar 150 watt and the HP-22V 2 - AM Solar 150 watt and a Blue Sky 2000E 3 - Kyocera 135 watt and the HP-22V 4 - Kyocera 135 watt and the Blue Sky 2000E The AM Solar panels are 30 more watts than the Kyocera panels. That's the only difference I know of (at my level of uneducation). I have bought two use 165 Ah AGM batteries to learn with and possibly destroy rather than spending the money up front for quite expensive Liveline AGM batteries. I have a van. I'm planning to put a ladder rack on the van, plywood, then two panels on the plywood. Connect the panels to the controller using six gauge wire, the controller to the batteries again using six gauge wire, and an eventual 1500 pure sine wave inverter connected to the batteries using two gauge wires. I am doing this work myself.a9
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #5 – April 30, 2010, 03:57:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112266Steve,Not sure where you are getting your data on the 2 100 W panels. I recently purchased 2 of their old 44 cell panels and the specs that came with them, as compared to their web site for the new ones are as follows:Old 44 cell New 40 cell Vpm 21.51 20.8 Ipm 4.65 4.81 Voc 26.84 24.8 Isc 5.22 5.4 So both come out to 100 Watts, but certainly not compatible with each other. The new panels are smaller (1108 sq in vs 1211 sq in) so they must be more efficient cells. By the way, the old panels checked out very close to the specs they included with it. I don't have a problem with their panels, just their controller claims.Rich
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #6 – April 30, 2010, 05:32:23 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112267Just a quick note to say that Roger at AM Solar told me on 4/29/2010 that they don't have a way to ship the RV150 yet. So the fellow who wants to get it done by the end of May before his lease is up might rethink using that panel. JBoles
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #7 – April 30, 2010, 05:45:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112268Quote Just a quick note to say that Roger at AM Solar told me on 4/29/2010 that they don't have a way to ship the RV150 yet. So the fellow who wants to get it done by the end of May before his lease is up might rethink using that panel. JBoles JBoles,Thanks for that. That bit of news does affect my thinking some. a9
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #8 – April 30, 2010, 08:05:54 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112272A9,I don't know which is best, but if it were me, of the systems you described, I'd go with #4. 40 cell panels are rather unusual, and it looks like you can get the 36 cell Kyocera panels for the same or a little less $/watt than the AM Solar panels. The Blue Sky 2000E controler is well respected and costs less than the HPV-22B even if you add in the temperature probe and has a little greater capacity (25A vs 22A). But hey, that's just me. You probably can't go wrong with either system.Rich Gort - 2000 MB - Birch Bay, WA
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #9 – April 30, 2010, 08:53:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112274QuoteNot sure where you are getting your data on the 2 100 W panels. I recently purchased 2 of their old 44 cell panels and the specs that came with them, as compared to their web site for the new ones are as follows:Old 44 cell New 40 cell Vpm 21.51 20.8 Ipm 4.65 4.81 Voc 26.84 24.8 Isc 5.22 5.4 So both come out to 100 Watts, but certainly not compatible with each other. The new panels are smaller (1108 sq in vs 1211 sq in) so they must be more efficient cells. By the way, the old panels checked out very close to the specs they included with it. Silicon solar cell technology should produce just under 0.5V per cell at max power, mono- or poly-crystalline. A more efficient cell will produce more current for a given surface area, but not a higher voltage - the voltage is determined by the band-gap of the silicon crystal structure, and should be invariant. So, a 44-cell panel, series connected, should produce a bit under 22V at maximum power, as you noted with yours. A 40-cell panel should produce a bit under 20V. Now, it is possible that certain dopants diffused into the silicon during manufacture might affect that band-gap, but if so, I haven't heard of it. Unless AM Solar reveals the manufacturer to allow more research, I'm hoping someone on this group purchasing the panels will give us a field test (Joan?).Steve
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #10 – April 30, 2010, 09:43:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112276QuoteI was just about to buy some Kyocera 135 watt when the AM Solar 150 watt was mentioned in this group. I have no solar set up at the moment and must have my electrical finished in 30 days (I'm doing this myself and my apartment lease expires at the end of May). I expect to travel and to never stay in RV parks. My biggest consumer is a laptop, if I keep everything else using propane. If I don't use propane heavily I have a 1200 watt electric kettle and a 350 watt rice cooker that I would bring with me. Of the four combination I can think of, which is best? Each combination is two solar panels and one MPPT controller.1 - AM Solar 150 watt and the HP-22V 2 - AM Solar 150 watt and a Blue Sky 2000E 3 - Kyocera 135 watt and the HP-22V 4 - Kyocera 135 watt and the Blue Sky 2000E Let me point out a few things. Your 165 A-hr batteries are likely rated at a 20-hr discharge rate, i.e. at a discharge rate of 8.75 Amps. If they are 12V batteries in parallel, this is 17.5A. A 1200W electric kettle, through a 90% efficient inverter, will draw about 132 Amps. The thing is, at that current draw, the batteries are no longer 165Ahr batteries - they may be capable of supplying half or less of that total charge. Now, since you never want to discharge below the 50% level to avoid permanent battery damage, you may only have safely about 80Ahr total available. That is about 36 min. of kettle operation, if everything else is off. Now the solar. That 300W of solar charging is only available under perfect conditions for a few hours a day - there will be much less most of the time. If your batteries are discharged to 50%, you may get a recharge rate at noon of 22A or so, tapering to much less morning and evening, on a perfectly sunny summer day. Expect about half that on a sunny winter day. Using your high-current electrical appliances, you simply won't be able to keep up. Propane stores a lot of energy. If you use that for cooking and heating, you will be able to go for weeks on a very limited amount of storage capacity. Reserve the 12V system for lighting, laptop, and entertainment, and you will probably do fine with your proposed setups.Steve
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #11 – April 30, 2010, 10:23:24 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112279"I would question why they decided to go with 40 cell panels as opposed to the previous 44 cell units."I'm guessing it was just a question of availabilty. "Will make for a challange for anyone with 44 cell panels to add to them, as 44 cell panels are not that easy to find." That's for sure, and I'm not happy about that aspect. I could probably fit a couple of the new 50W panels in odd spots on my roof... but as I understand it, mixing new 40-cell and old 44-cell panels would effectively limit the old panels to the lower voltage of the new panels. In other words, I'd lose 10% of what my three-year-old 44-cell panels are capable of delivering. If that's true (and somebody please correct me if it's not), then adding two new 50W panels would gain me 100W, but cost me 50W of capacity from my existing 500W array. I'd end up spending $600 for a 50W net gain. This is not an attractive proposition. If my guess is right, and AM Solar simply can't get the 44-cell panels any more, I don't blame them for that... but whatever the cause, it does put those of us with recently installed 44-cell AM Solar panels in an awkward position if we want to upgrade.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #12 – April 30, 2010, 10:48:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112281With regard to solar panels, you can never have too much, so buy the most wattage your roof will carry. In your scenario, that would be two 150W AM Solar panels. Either controller mentioned should do a fine job. Since you won't be expanding beyond 300W on a van roof, the HPV-22B has plenty of capacity... but if you can get the Blue Sky 2000E for less, then that's your best choice. Unless you plan to be plugged in all the time (or lug a generator with you), forget the electric kettle and rice cooker. It's not practical to cook with electricity using the setup you describe, and as others have said, propane is affordable and goes a long way. That being the case, you can also skip the 1,500W pure sinewave inverter, since you'll have no need for that kind of wattage. An inexpensive ($30-$50) 300W-400W modified sinewave inverter will power your laptop, TV, and any other electronic devices you might bring. (Laptops don't need pure sinewave power, as their power supplies are very efficient filters.) Small inverters waste less power when idling than large ones, and modified sinewave inverters are more efficient than the pure sinewave variety, so you'll save energy as swell as money.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #13 – May 01, 2010, 11:34:06 am Yahoo Message Number: 112290On Sat, 1 May 2010, Andy wrote:QuoteIf my guess is right, and AM Solar simply can't get the 44-cell panels any more, I don't blame them for that... but whatever the cause, it does put those of us with recently installed 44-cell AM Solar panels in an awkward position if we want to upgrade.One thing they could have done to be considerate to their existing customers would have been to warn us that they were changing to 40 cell panels. At least then anyone seriously thinking of adding to an existing 44 cell system could have made the purchase before inventory ran out.Oh well, too late now.Rich
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #14 – May 01, 2010, 01:00:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112295Rich wrote:QuoteOne thing they could have done to be considerate to their existing customers would have been to warn us that they were changing to 40 cell panels. At least then anyone seriously thinking of adding to an existing 44 cell system could have made the purchase before inventory ran out. Rich, there may be some who want to add 44 cell panels to their existing system. But there may well be others who would like to remove their 44s and go to the new ones to take advantage of the ability to fit three different size panels into spots that were previously thought unusable? If so, there may be 44s available. Possibly AM will do trade ins. Joan may be able to inquire?Tom Johnston
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #15 – May 01, 2010, 01:43:51 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112296Quote... Possibly AM will do trade ins. Joan At least AM Solar used to do trade-ins. I purchased two 36 cell 85 Watt BP panels from them several years ago. they had been removed from another coach (an LD I think). These 85 Watt panels matched the two I already had so it worked out great.Linley
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #16 – May 01, 2010, 02:22:21 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112298"Tom Johnston" wrote:Possibly AM will do trade ins --- I checked this when I made the appointment a month or so ago to have the new panels installed; I will get a reasonable "price break" applied to the two 100W 40-cell panels from the 85W that they will remove. No, it's not much, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, as my Mama used to say! Their accepting panel trade-ins would be "situation specific", I would think; those interested could check with AM Solar on this. Customers can also contact AM Solar directly with questions they might have concerning systems compatibility, too, of course. ;-)Joan
Re: AM Solar's new panels Reply #17 – May 03, 2010, 11:26:09 am Yahoo Message Number: 112326QuoteThat's for sure, and I'm not happy about that aspect. I could probably fit a couple of the new 50W panels in odd spots on my roof... but as I understand it, mixing new 40-cell and old 44-cell panels would effectively limit the old panels to the lower voltage of the new panels. In other words, I'd lose 10% of what my three-year-old 44-cell panels are capable of delivering. If that's true (and somebody please correct me if it's not), then adding two new 50W panels would gain me 100W, but cost me 50W of capacity from my existing 500W array. I'd end up spending $600 for a 50W net gain. This is not an attractive proposition. Andy, I don't think that is what would happen. According to Rich's data:Old 44 cell New 40 cell Vpm 21.51 20.8 Ipm 4.65 4.81 Voc 26.84 24.8 Isc 5.22 5.4 note that the open circuit voltage of the new panels is 24.8V, and I think that the max power voltage would tend to 'float up' to 21.5V to match the old panels. Just an opinion, based on the way the cell junction behavior should be, since the new panel would also be a current source. I am also assuming the above figures are correct, but as you know, I have suspicions about AM Solar's specs until proven otherwise.Steve
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