Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Topic: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges (Read 6 times) previous topic - next topic

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April 26, 2010, 06:03:21 pm

Hi, guys,
Back in February, Terry Tanner posted some info about the Horst sensors of black and grey tank fullness on the Tech Snoz site. Earlier, either here or on that site, there were discussions of See Level gauges measuring same.
Spouse and I have read most of what we can find on both products. Now we're seeking real world recommendations:
Have any of you installed one or the other product? Has the Horst product superseded (sp?) the See Level? Can anybody speak to:
1.   Ease of installation?
2.   Reliability/quality of the product?
3.   How much, if any, subsequent maintenance they require?

In the interests of reaching a broader group of informants, I'm also going to post this question on the Tech Snoz site. If this is a bad/rude/non protocol thing to do, somebody please let me know.

Pat B., 30' LD IB, Piscataqua River

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #1 – April 26, 2010, 07:12:02 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112168

"Now we're seeking real world recommendations:"

Pat

You are comparing two totally different things.
The Horst sensors keep the existing LED system intact except for new sensors, which are purported to resist fouling or shorting out. I know of no one with long-term experience with this product.
The SeeLevel adds a new set of sensors and a new panel. It provides a read-out for each tank

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #2 – April 26, 2010, 07:23:41 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112169

These are very different products. The Horst probes are a low-cost way to make the existing "idiot light" system work the way it was supposed to but seldom does, while the more expensive SeeLevel gauge system is a way to get not only accurate but very precise information on tank levels.
The Horst Miracle Sensors purport to provide accurate readings using in-tank sensors, but they use the Lazy Daze's standard 4-LED display, which is very imprecise--that is, even with perfectly functioning sensors, it can only tell you that your tanks are empty, 33%, 67%, or full. Since the Horst probes work with your current display and don;t require rewiring, installation is fairly simple.
The SeeLevel II gauge (about $210 for freshwater, black, gray and propane tanks) replaces both sensors and display, and is accurate to better than 5%. Assuming you've installed the external sensor strips correctly, when it tells you your tank is, say, 17% full, that information is both accurate and precise. Installation of the sensor strips is easy, but new wiring should be run, and you'll need to find a place inside the coach for the 3" x 4" SeeLevel display panel.
The Horst sensors are available for black and gray tanks only, at a total cost of about $65. The SeeLevel II gauge system reads out not only black and gray, but also fresh water and propane levels and battery voltage with the same accuracy and precision. It sells for about $210 total (model #711).
A number of us have installed SeeLevel II systems and are pleased with them; you can find my own writeup here:

http://www.andybaird.com/travels/skylarking/improvements/gauges.htm>
I don't know of anyone who's installed Horst sensors, but perhaps someone else here does.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #3 – April 26, 2010, 07:53:00 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112170

As usual, allow me to speak on a subject I know nothing about.
When Chris, no relation, Horst, mentioned them on this list last year I was interested. Then, Terry B, made the comment to ignore the gray or black gauges, at least when dry camping. When you empty the fresh water tank the other tanks will not be full, but it would be a convenient time to empty them. Consult your capacities to verify this. I took his advise and covered up those gauges with black tape. [I peeked last month. Both tanks show 2/3 full when empty]
However, if you are a concrete camper with unlimited water and no sewer, you may want to replace the gauges.
The SeeLevel have been the gold standard, they may still be. Figure close to a thousand dollars unless you DIY.
The potential problem with the Horst probes is that the rubber may break down and then probe would leak or fall out. Not the kind of problem I care to deal with.
I do have experience with well nuts that are used on sail boats. When tightened they balloon up and form a water tight seal. My experience is they last about five years before needing replacement. The Horst probes look like they use the same technique. This makes me wary of them.

I put my concern to Horst and got this reply: The rubber grommets are identical to the ones every ABS tank is equipped with for 5th wheels and campers. It should last the life of the RV.

Regards, Susie Horst Dynamics, Inc.

We know that LD spin welds their "probes", so her statement is not 100% factual. Maybe 99.5%? But, l don't know the lifespan of most RV's. I would guess it's a LOT less than the life of an LD. It seems that everyday someone here posts about a 1985 model LD. I wonder how many other RV's of that age are still in use.
For me, the jury is still out on how long Horst probes will last. I am keeping my gauges taped up until I know more.

Cheers, Don

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #4 – April 26, 2010, 08:02:00 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112171

Quote

Back in February, Terry Tanner posted some info about the Horst sensors of black and grey tank fullness on the Tech Snoz site. Earlier, either here or on that site, there were discussions of See Level gauges measuring same.
Spouse and I have read most of what we can find on both products. Now we're seeking real world recommendations:
Have any of you installed one or the other product? Has the Horst product superseded (sp?) the See Level? Can anybody speak to:
1. Ease of installation?
2. Reliability/quality of the product?
3. How much, if any, subsequent maintenance they require?

I've had SeeLevel II gauges for over 7 years. I installed them in late 2002 or early 2003. Other than a corroded crimp splice in one of the sensor ground connections, they've been trouble free. We consider them to be one of the top upgrades we've done to our rig.
On installation, probably one of the hardest things was to figure out how to run the wires. I put the panel above the microwave in our MB, but wanted to leave the old tanks sensors and wiring in place. Also, this was the first time I cut a large hole in the rig's paneling. Getting the nerve up to do it was the hard part. Use tape to perform trial placement of the sensors and testing of the system. Once you pull the backing off and stick the sensor down, it won't move and can't be removed without damage. You want to get it right.
No maintenance needed. We've probably put something like 80k+ miles on the rig since installing them.

Hope this helps, Art

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs SeeLevel Gauges

Reply #5 – April 26, 2010, 08:13:39 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112172

"When you empty the fresh water tank the other tanks will not be full, but it would be a convenient time to empty them."
This common-sense approach will work as long as you don't particularly care about maximizing your dry-camping times. If you do, accurate gauges can help lengthen your stays by several days by eliminating premature dumping. For some of us, that's important. :-)

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #6 – April 27, 2010, 12:00:23 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112185

Quote

Back in February, Terry Tanner posted some info about the Horst >sensors of black and grey tank fullness on the Tech Snoz site. >Earlier, either here or on that site, there were discussions of See >Level gauges measuring same.
Spouse and I have read most of what we can find on both products. >Now we're seeking real world recommendations: Have any of you installed one or the other product? Has the Horst product superseded (sp?) the See Level? Can anybody speak to:
1. Ease of installation?
2. Reliability/quality of the product?
3. How much, if any, subsequent maintenance they require?

Hi group,
After a few years of frustration dealing with the factory tank monitor system, I installed Seelevel in our 2003 Mid-bath. This is a GREAT system! The last few years, we dumped our tanks based on the number of days on the tanks because the black tank system was totally unreliable.
Unlike some of the folks on this message board, I lack a lot of skills, particularly carpentry skills. The biggest challenge to me was deciding where to install the Seelevel display where it would be useable. Lazy Daze does not make it easy to run wires in their rigs after they are complete.
For those who are challenged by lack of carpentry and wiring skills, I think I found an installation that, while it may lack the finesse of a professional installation, it has worked quite well and it looks good too.
Here is the short version of what I did. If you need more details, please ask.
I decided to mount the Seelevel monitor display above the propane detector because it would eliminate the need to route wires through the walls or put a hole in the cabinets. One easy to cut hole in the panneling was all it took. No complicated wiring routes. No disturbing the existing wiring either. Installing it here did not make it look like it was installed as an after thought.
Not wanting to drill a hole in the floor of the rig to run wires, I poked a hole in the sealant surrounding the sensor wires LD had used. I actually used half of a plastic ball point pen as a small conduit in that hole so I could easily push and pull wires through that area. After all wiring was done, I used some sealant to seal the end of the pen/conduit. BTW, by routing the wires through that area and mounting the display above the propane detector, it was a simple process to connect all the wires, at least in the mid-bath floorplan.
By having the Seelevel monitor display above the propane detector, I could easily tap into power from either the water pump or the propane detector circuit. It was also easy to connect to the water tank sensor.
I have not connected Seelevel to the propane tank so far. I was not concerned with monitoring the propane since I did leave the factory monitor intact and it is easy to check the tank's gage.
Once you decide where and how to install this system, it is not complicated if you install it like I did. Yes, we need to bend over to push the button to read the display but it is not something we do constantly.
This system works well. It has saved us time and gas money by eliminating the need to make a long trip to dump tanks in an area like Yellowstone where it is a long way to a dump station from the northeast area of the park. It also takes the guess work out of how much water you actually have when filling the water tank (we used to pull away the access panel to look at the tank to see how much water was actually in the tank.
Also, if you do not have a solar pannel display, it gives you an accurate reading of your rig's batteries.

Steve K. (if I could do this, I think just about anybody could!)

Let

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #7 – April 27, 2010, 12:40:38 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112186

"The biggest challenge to me was deciding where to install the Seelevel display where it would be useable. Lazy Daze does not make it easy to run wires in their rigs after they are complete."

Let
Running the wires is the biggest hassle of installing a tank monitor.
A long, thin electrician or alarm installer's drill bit is very handy for drilling and running the wires through hidden places.
When you come to an 'impassible' area, use surface-mount wire molding to hide the wires in plain sight.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/1416460874/in/set-72157602104740651/>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/1416460942/in/set-72157602104740651/>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/1415582705/in/set-72157602104740651/> The white molding blends well with the white ceiling and wall panels. Wire molding has a peel-off sticky back that holds the molding in place. I install small, short sheet metal screws, inside the molding and into the wall, every foot or so, since the molding's adhesive WILL fail after a two or three years without the screws.
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/installsurfacewiring>
http://tinyurl.com/25lngtx>

Larry

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #8 – April 27, 2010, 01:04:16 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112187

"I have not connected Seelevel to the propane tank so far."
It's really easy to do that--just remove the stove-hood display panel and tap into the white/green wire you'll find back there, using a crimp-on "tap splice" so you don't have to cut any wires.
I recommend doing this, as it gives you an accurate and precise reading without having to go outside and crouch down to look at the propane tank's gauge, or play guessing games with the factory's "idiot light" display.
Steve's description of running wires through the glob of sealant on the kitchen cabinet floor matches what I did. In fact, this and a number of other installation tips are described in detail in the article I wrote about the SeeLevel II gauge sytem:

http://www.andybaird.com/travels/skylarking/improvements/gauges.htm>
Anyone installing one of these systems would benefit from reading that article. It can save you a lot of head-scratching! :-)

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #9 – April 27, 2010, 11:17:07 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112197

"Anyone installing one of these systems would benefit from reading that article.
It can save you a lot of head-scratching! :-)"
I read the article, installed the gauges, and the only head scratching I did is why I didn't do this sooner. I had one "Sender Strip" fail after six months and the manufacturer (Garnet Industries) replaced it immediately (no questions asked). Be sure to follow the previous forum instructions and the install instructions regarding using "tape" to locate the exact location on your tanks where the senders are to be permanently affixed- you only get one shot at permanent adhesion (if you make a mistake, and have to pull the strip off to relocate, you will almost positively need to replace it for about $35 each one). All things considering, it's a relatively simple and worthwhile upgrade.
Jay Green'07RK- Stickhouse: Winter Park FL

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #10 – April 28, 2010, 11:08:53 am

Yahoo Message Number: 112203

I too have, and love, the SeeLevel gauges. I took a different route than Steve.

I wanted to have my indicator in the cabinet wall above the microwave. I removed the microwave (4 screws, and unplug it) to get access and room to work. Before cutting any holes in the paneling, I wanted to be sure I could get the wiring into position. The gauges require that two wires run from the sensors on the tanks to the display. It did not occur to me to use the wire passage through the floor by pushing a tool through the glop of sealant from LD. Instead, I used a piece of 1/4" rubber tube and placed it into a hole drilled through the floor alongside the steel frame. That took some careful measurement to get it right. Before pushing the tube down into the hole, I shot some Great Stuff expanding foam into the hole. I pushed the tube through and about 6" beyond the floor. I let the Great Stuff harden, then cut off most of the excess underneath. I used more of the foam alongside the hole in the bottom to fully seal it. I now had a hole from underneath into the space next to my water pump.

I next drilled 2 1/4" holes in the black tank vent pipe, the first under the sink and the second next to the microwave. I fished the two wires from the top hole to the lower hole and pulled through plenty of excess. I put grommets on each hole and glopped caulk over each hole to fully seal it.

In the lower compartment, I attached the first sensor to the water tank. Underneath, I spliced a 2 conductor wire to each of the sensors and attached then to the tanks. I then spliced the wires together, feeding the resulting 2 conductor lead up through the floor using the tube. I then injected caulk under pressure into the tube until it came out the other end, thoroughly sealing it while protecting the wires.
I now had two wires from the fresh water tank, two wires from the grey and black water tanks, and two wires from the area by the microwave, all in one place - by the water pump. I spliced them together and closed the access panel by the water pump.
Above the microwave, I tapped into the wires for my power feed and the propane sensor. I temporarily connected the panel to be sure all was working. It was. I cut the hole in the cabinet paneling above the microwave, mounted and connected the display panel. I again checked all splices, wire tied the wiring in place, and added some more caulk over the holes in the vent tube, then closed everything up.
It was a two person job that took us a few hours, but the result was worth it. I had a very convenient location for the panel. The installation looks very clean.

Ken F. in OR

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #11 – April 28, 2010, 01:28:02 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112206

Lotta work. I just used the existing wiring and working fine after 2 years.

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #12 – April 28, 2010, 04:12:44 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112212

"I just used the existing wiring [to install SeeLevel II gauges]."
That's workable and certainly an easier approach; it all depends on how trusting you are. :-)
After having been involved in troubleshooting Kate's Vena tank gauges, which looked great but never worked reliably, I was in no mood to disable Lazy Daze's factory-installed gauge system--crude as it is--in order to install my SeeLevel II gauge. I wanted the original system there as backup, just in case.
The SeeLevel system has worked fine, as it turned out--but I'm still glad I played it safe by leaving the factory gauges working.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/

Re: Horst Miracle Sensors vs See Level Gauges

Reply #13 – April 28, 2010, 04:28:02 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 112213

"After having been involved in troubleshooting Kate's Vena tank gauges, which looked great but never worked reliably, I was in no mood to disable Lazy Daze's factory-installed gauge system--crude as it is--in order to install my SeeLevel II gauge. I wanted the original system there as backup, just in case."

Andy
After experience with Kate's LD, I prefer to leave the stock tank monitor intact and to run new wires.
The whole experience with the Vena monitor really made an impression.
Having a backup device or plan is never a bad idea.
That said, it does take much longer to install a SeeLevel if new wires are installed.
IMO, it's worth it.

Larry

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April 26, 2010, 06:03:21 pm

Reply #1 – April 26, 2010, 07:12:02 pm

Reply #2 – April 26, 2010, 07:23:41 pm

Reply #3 – April 26, 2010, 07:53:00 pm

Reply #4 – April 26, 2010, 08:02:00 pm

Reply #5 – April 26, 2010, 08:13:39 pm

Reply #6 – April 27, 2010, 12:00:23 pm

Reply #7 – April 27, 2010, 12:40:38 pm

Reply #8 – April 27, 2010, 01:04:16 pm

Reply #9 – April 27, 2010, 11:17:07 pm

Reply #10 – April 28, 2010, 11:08:53 am

Reply #11 – April 28, 2010, 01:28:02 pm

Reply #12 – April 28, 2010, 04:12:44 pm

Reply #13 – April 28, 2010, 04:28:02 pm

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