Concern about Heliotrope.... March 31, 2010, 01:21:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111471In my recent research regarding an upgrade of my solar charge controller, I am more than a little concerned that the company markets uniquely to AM Solar, and presumably LD purchases its units from them. I do understand that this is an RV-specific unit with appropriate features, and that is all they design, but it leaves out comparisons with other brands. For that reason, among others, I am unlikely to include them for aftermarket consideration. One thing that is a big issue with me is overall size, particularly in regards the all-in-one units with a massive front panel. Most of the units you can hide end up being very pricey when you include a remote monitor, the latter which usually include far more features than I can use. With my specific situation, where I have a LinkLite battery monitor installed, what would be ideal for me for an MPPT unit would be a small readout giving only the output current and possibly voltage. My battery monitor lets me know net battery use during solar hours, but gives no information about current supplied by the solar system to appliances in use. If I am willing to forego that information, the Morningstar SS-MPPT-15L appears to be a very high-quality unit that more than matches my needs, and I am wondering if anyone else has looked at that unit or has firsthand experience? It is not cheap for a model with no 'front panel', but most other brands with similar features appear doubtful in quality (and origin).Steve
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #1 – March 31, 2010, 07:28:25 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111476"I am more than a little concerned that the company markets uniquely to AM Solar... For that reason, among others, I am unlikely to include them for aftermarket consideration." I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning, Steve. AM Solar sells Heliotrope controllers to consumers (I bought my HPV-30 from them), so they're certainly available for aftermarket installation. Are you saying you won't buy a product that's only available from one retailer? Wouldn't this rule out Lazy Dazes, which are only available from the LD factory?Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #2 – March 31, 2010, 08:01:58 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111479Quote I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning, Steve. AM Solar sells Heliotrope controllers to consumers (I bought my HPV-30 from them), so they're certainly available for aftermarket installation. Are you saying you won't buy a product that's only available from one retailer? Wouldn't this rule out Lazy Dazes, which are only available from the LD factory?Andy Baird TWIMC Correct me if I'm mistaken but it seems to me that the brand name Heliotrope is proprietary to AM Solar. I'm under the impression that Greg Holder owns or is somehow affiliated with the Solar Controller manufactory.Steve S. Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #3 – March 31, 2010, 08:02:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111480In addition to Andy's comments, it might be useful to all to understand that Heliotrope is owned by AM Solar. It was a development/sales company and somewhere down the line, it became part of AM Solar.Hope this is helpful, Mike Quote "I am more than a little concerned that the company markets uniquely to AM Solar... For that reason, among others, I am unlikely to include them for aftermarket consideration." I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning, Steve. AM Solar sells Heliotrope controllers to consumers (I bought my HPV-30 from them), so they're certainly available for aftermarket installation. Are you saying you won't buy a product that's only available from one retailer? Wouldn't this rule out Lazy Dazes, which are only available from the LD factory?Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #4 – March 31, 2010, 08:06:56 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111481I fail to understand the concern here. Could someone please expla
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #5 – March 31, 2010, 09:53:52 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111484QuoteI'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning, Steve. AM Solar sells Heliotrope controllers to consumers (I bought my HPV-30 from them), so they're certainly available for aftermarket installation. Are you saying you won't buy a product that's only available from one retailer? Wouldn't this rule out Lazy Dazes, which are only available from the LD factory? Here's my concern, Andy. As an engineer I can analyze a design, or as a consumer I can rely on expert opinion, in order to make a decision on a product. Most brands are marketed and reviewed by any number of competent off-grid suppliers, with tests in many cases, plenty of specs and descriptions, reliability records, consumer reviews, etc. Even without knowing the specific engineering, I feel I at least can make a fairly informed choice. The Heliotrope is pretty much a black box to me, since it is only marketed by one outlet, and its engineering is unavailable for scrutiny. In fact, very few specs are available at all, including basic installation concerns. Examining the units in a LD gives me only their front panel dimension and basic operation, not enough to allow a comparison. As a further concern, the message on their website leaves me to wonder about possible viability concerns: http://www.heliotrope-pv.com/index.htmlBy contrast, LD's have been reviewed and critiqued and discussed widely, so if you have heard of the brand, there is a lot of information and opinion available. Examining one first-hand gives a lot of additional input, since the engineering is pretty much open-book. The differences are readily apparent.Steve
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #6 – March 31, 2010, 10:03:13 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111485On Mar 31, 2010, at 8:53 PM, aq433 wrote:QuoteThe Heliotrope is pretty much a black box to me, since it is only marketed by one outlet, and its engineering is unavailable for scrutiny. In fact, very few specs are available at all, including basic installation concerns. Examining the units in a LD gives me only their front panel dimension and basic operation, not enough to allow a comparison. As a further concern, the message on their website leaves me to wonder about possible viability concerns: You present a good argument Steve. I could only add one thing. Does it work? It sure seems to. I have not heard a negative peep about it.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #7 – March 31, 2010, 10:35:22 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111486"The Heliotrope is pretty much a black box to me, since it is only marketed by one outlet..." I don't see any problem with a product being marketed by one outlet (as is Lazy Daze), as long as I can verify that it works. And as Don pointed out, a LOT of people use Heliotrope controllers daily, but I can't remember ever hearing a complaint about one from a user. With a product like this that I'm only going to buy once, as long as it does the job at a reasonable price, I don't care whether it's sold only by its maker, or by every Walmart in the land. "its engineering is unavailable for scrutiny. In fact, very few specs are available at all." I agree--the dearth of published specifications is annoying. I'll freely admit that I feel better about companies that publish detailed specs. Not that I'm necessarily competent to judge the details of engineering--it's not as if I could look at a schematic for an HPV-22 and say "They got this circuit wrong"--but openness about specifications gives me the feeling that a company has confidence in its engineering. AM Solar definitely falls short in this department. "the message on their website leaves me to wonder about possible viability concerns" I agree. When a company says that they've shut down the production line, and from now on will only build a unit when someone places an order, that's worrisome. First, it says they're in economic difficulties... and second, in the long run it's just not economically feasible to build a product like this in onesies-twosies. If you have to reopen the factory just to fill an order, that's very inefficient. At a guess (and it's only a guess), it probably means they'll wait until they have a backlog of at least ten or twenty orders, and then they'll run off a batch. That means delays in fulfilling orders. I'd be more worried about this if I'd heard a lot of stories about AM Solar/Heliotrope controllers needing to go back to the factory for repairs... but again, I can't recall any. In the worst case, if the company were to shut down, there seems no reason not to expect our controllers to keep working for many years to come. To summarize, I think you're being unfairly hard on them with respect to the sole-source issue--especially since these products have been in widespread use for years, and have gotten overwhelmingly favorable reviews from buyers--but I do see your other concerns. They wouldn't necessarily make me rule out AM Solar/Heliotrope products, but they'd make me take a good look at the competition.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #8 – March 31, 2010, 11:06:59 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111487Steve, I would not discount other charge controllers. If you are attaching less than 600W of panel and not mounting them on a solar tracker to keep them orthogonal to the sun then a MPPT controller will likely not be worth the extra money over a standard PWM type controller. MPPT may give you a little extra power over a day, but it will likely never pay for itself over its life or charge the batteries much better. Generally MPPT controllers work well for 1kW and above array sizes because of the panel costs involved. You would be better to try to match a select type and number of panels in a series/parallel configuration so that at the array's max power point the max panel voltage is several volts above 13.2V or 26.4V (float level) battery voltage and then let a simple inexpensive PWM controller do the rest. Using the LinkLite or LinkPro battery monitors is a great idea because then you can make sure when the batteries are close to full charge and how much they are depleted which will greatly extend their service life.Ian_ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!http://www.flickr.com/gift/
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #9 – April 01, 2010, 02:47:41 am Yahoo Message Number: 111492QuoteI would not discount other charge controllers. If you are attaching less than 600W of panel and not mounting them on a solar tracker to keep them orthogonal to the sun then a MPPT controller will likely not be worth the extra money over a standard PWM type controller. MPPT may give you a little extra power over a day, but it will likely never pay for itself over its life or charge the batteries much better. Generally MPPT controllers work well for 1kW and above array sizes because of the panel costs involved. I don't think I agree on this count, but I am looking to improve the performance of the panels I have, which by today's standards, is low (2 X 53W @ 17.1V). The difference in price between a good MPPT controller and a good PWM model is fairly small compared to the cost of going initially to higher output panels - or in my case, replacing perfectly viable ones. I may only gain an amp or two max charge current, but 'paying for itself' is not an issue - boondocking for longer stretches in the fall or winter is the goal. To clarify the situation, my charge controller is a 'dumb' shunt device which simply connects the PV array to the batteries when their voltage drops to 13.2V, then disconnects the array when it rises to 14.3V. Mostly, this works fine, but with fully charged batteries, the voltage rises in about 5 seconds, then drops back down in about 1.5 sec - repeatedly. In order for the LinkLite to automatically establish a 'full-charge' condition, it requires a 'maintenance' voltage of about 13.6V to be sustained for 30 sec after the batteries reach full charge, and this never happens. A good PWM controller will have multi-stage charging, and this will solve the problem - for about $100 or so for the better brands. The Morningstar MPPT unit will do that too, but with the additional charge efficiency, for as low as $213. The batteries charge just as well now as with the PWM controller, so I don't see any advantage to spending the money just to avoid manually resetting the Linklite. But, for more output with an MPPT model, I could justify the cost.Steve
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #10 – April 01, 2010, 03:02:35 am Yahoo Message Number: 111493QuoteI don't see any problem with a product being marketed by one outlet (as is Lazy Daze), as long as I can verify that it works. And as Don pointed out, a LOT of people use Heliotrope controllers daily, but I can't remember ever hearing a complaint about one from a user. Actually, I may have - probably not, but the behavior was of some concern, and since I don't know the internal programming, I couldn't tell if there was a fault. The unit was maintaining an output of 14.3V at about 1.5A, yet the output would drop to 13.2-13.6V if some loads were turned on, and the lights would flicker when the water pump would run. Full solar exposure. The batteries would maintain 12.7V overnight, and on their own, voltage was stable. Seems to me the batteries were fully charged, but since I don't know the charge sensing method of the Heliotrope, I don't know if perhaps a phantom load was fooling the controller into maintaining a high charge current. Funny thing, the status light was pulsing...Steve
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #11 – April 01, 2010, 03:28:33 am Yahoo Message Number: 111494From: Ian Read Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:06 PM To: lifewithalazydazerv@yahoogroups.com Subject: [LD] Concern about Heliotrope....Steve, I would not discount other charge controllers. If you are attaching less than 600W of panel and not mounting them on a solar tracker to keep them orthogonal to the sun then a MPPT controller will likely not be worth the extra money over a standard PWM type controller. MPPT may give you a little extra power over a day, but it will likely never pay for itself over its life or charge the batteries much better. Generally MPPT controllers work well for 1kW and above array sizes because of the panel costs involved. You would be better to try to match a select type and number of panels in a series/parallel configuration so that at the array's max power point the max panel voltage is several volts above 13.2V or 26.4V (float level) battery voltage and then let a simple inexpensive PWM controller do the rest. Using the LinkLite or LinkPro battery monitors is a great idea because then you can make sure when the batteries are close to full charge and how much they are depleted which will greatly extend their service life.IanIan, I agree with your first sentence. I don't understand how you arrived at your other conclusions. I think a MPPT solar charge controller makes perfect sense with smaller PV panel installations. In fact, it's the most efficient and practical way to go when space for PV panels is limited and optimal power and efficiency is needed from a given installation. On "Yonder" I have a 5 panel 400 watt system. There is no more room for additional flat mounted panels and I do not care to aim or tilt the array. My Blue Sky MPPT gives me up to 30% more charge current from the array - though less gain is obviously more commonplace as peak MPPT efficiency occurs when the battery voltage is low. Even If I'm getting just 10% boost from the MPPT controller, or about 40 watts net, assuming the panels cost about $5 per watt, then the $200 the MPPT cost is paying for itself. Buying a non-MPPT solar charge controller makes no sense at all when it comes to getting the most out of smaller PV arrays such as we use on our RV's. I even use one on my sailplane, and that's especially important as I have less than a 20 watt array on the engine bay doors and no practical means of adding more PV panels.bumperYonderMinden, NV[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #12 – April 01, 2010, 11:14:45 am Yahoo Message Number: 111496"If you are attaching less than 600W of panel and not mounting them on a solar tracker to keep them orthogonal to the sun then a MPPT controller [such as the Heliotrope or Blue Sky models] will likely not be worth the extra money..." Like others here, I strongly disagree. Over the past seven years I've observed two different MPPT controllers in action--one with a motley array of old 18V panels, one with modern 22V panels--and I've seen the substantial gain in charging amps they provide. I have only to press a button on the controller to see the difference. For example, right now it's mid-morning, the sun angle is 25 degrees, and my panels are only generating 6.7 amps... but my MPPT controller is sending 10.2 amps to the batteries. That's a major gain--almost 4 amps that would be literally thrown away by a non-MPPT controller. MPPT controllers provide these benefits for any panel size, so it makes no sense to say that you have to have at least 600W of panels to make them pay. Granted, if I had a 15W panel, I wouldn't spend $250 to add an MPPT controller to it--I'd just buy more 15W panels. (Bumper's situation is special, since he doesn't have the real estate to mount more panels on his sailplane--he has to squeeze as much juice as possible from a small panel.) Given today's prices, MPPT technology is a no-brainer on any system larger than about 100W, because it's the most cost-effective way to increase power without buying more $600 panels. All of us who use these controllers know that--again, the information is just a button press away. Right now my panels are putting out 7.5A and my batteries are getting 11.5A, thanks to the MPPT boost. There's no way I'd give up that advantage just because I can't fit enough panels on my roof to meet your 600W minimum criterion.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #13 – April 01, 2010, 02:00:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111501This has been an interesting discussion. A good paper on the benefits (or lack thereof) of MPPT controllers can be found at http://www.moringstarcorp.com/en/support/library/MS.WP.MPPTvPWM.01.EN.pdfOne of the problems I have with the lack of on line specifications of the Heliotrope products is that they seem to say they will support more array wattage than their specs prove. For example, Andy listed the specs for his HPV-30 in an earlier post. While AM Solar says it is good for 600 Watts, NEC code would limit it to 460 W or 4 panels. (assumming use of their 100 W panels with an ISC of 5.22 Amps) One other thing to consider if you are thinking about changing out your PWM controller to a MPPT type is that the amount of "boost" (current difference between array current and charge current) will be much less with 36 cell panels than from 44 cell panels, so don't expect the kind of figures Andy keeps tell us if you have 36 cell panels. This is not to say you won't see an improvement if you go to a MPPT controller, especially under certain conditions, but it may not be as much as you might hope. Also, remember that the AM Solar 44 cell panels call for a MPPT controller or you will be wasting the extra voltage from the 8 additional cells so don't change out the panels to 44 cell types without changing out the PWM controller to a MPPT type.Rich Gort - 2000 MB - Birch Bay, WA
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #14 – April 01, 2010, 05:32:33 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111507OOOPS...make that url http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/support/library/MS.WP.MPPTvPWM.01.EN.pdf Rich
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #15 – April 02, 2010, 11:06:54 am Yahoo Message Number: 111518"the amount of 'boost' (current difference between array current and charge current) will be much less with 36 cell panels than from 44 cell panels, so don't expect the kind of figures Andy keeps tell us if you have 36 cell panels." Good point, Rich, and I should have pointed that out. MPPT controllers do offer benefits with 18V/36-cell panels (as I observed with my earlier rig), but the difference is not as dramatic. Also, I should have said that the 35%-40% boost that I cited yesterday is at the upper end of what you'll get even with 22V/44-cell panels. Overall, the average boost is more like 20% in my experience. Nevertheless, those numbers I reported yesterday were real (and I'm seeing similar numbers this morning), so I thought it worth citing them as evidence of what MPPT controllers are capable of in the real world, even with smaller panel arrays. :-)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #16 – April 02, 2010, 03:24:26 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111526Further concerns about the HPV-22B: From posts here and info on the Heliotrope site, it would appear that in dry-camp mode, the output voltage is maintained at 14.4V until dark. The site SAYS that charge current is tapered when the batteries are full, but does not say if that is due to natural drop-off as a result of battery chemistry, or if the voltage is lowered. Most controllers go to an absorption mode of about 13.6V until full charge is met, then switch to a trickle charge. With the Heliotrope, any such switching would appear to be manual. Heliotrope also indicates that some electrolyte evaporation may occur with their design. My feeling is that this design is best for higher consumers who need to squeeze every last 'drop' from their array, but a disadvantage for any like us who use little and recharge fairly quickly most of the time. I would be a bit worried about eventual reduced life for our AGMs, too. Another issue is the requirements of our LinkLite. Here is from that manual:"A charge cycle will be considered complete when both Auto-sync parameters F02 and F03 are met during at least 4 minutes." "F02 Charger's float voltage (Auto-sync parameter). This value must be equal to your battery charger's float voltage. which is the last stage of the charging process. In this stage the battery is considered full. Default: 13.2V Range: 8.0V â€" 33.0V Step size: 0.1V F03 Charger's float current (Auto-sync parameter). When the charge current is below this percentage of the battery capacity (see Function F01), the battery will be considered as fully charged. Make sure this Function value is always greater than the minimum current at which the charger maintains the battery or stops charging. Default: 2.0% Range: 0.5 â€" 10.0% Step size: 0.1%" The problem with our shunt charge controller is these conditions are never met, and thus a manual synchronize is periodically required. However, I suspect the characteristics of the Heliotrope are such that this is also true for that model, since the final charge voltage is so different from that of a good converter. I have sent an e-mail to AM Solar to clarify, and honestly my biggest problem with the Heliotrope and many others is the large real estate I would have to carve out to install them, but hopefully these discussions will be helpful to others.Steve
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #17 – April 02, 2010, 03:52:39 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111527I raised the overcharging AGM issue with AM Solar because while driving, my first SOB's alternator charged at 14.4v. This is after 24hr or longer periods of charging 3 Lifeline 8D AGMs at a float of 13.2v This question was answered by the response AM Solar received from Lifeline as follows:"I just called Lifeline. Their take on it is that it's not ideal to essentially float them in the 14V range but done periodically they don't feel that it's an issue. They told me that they have a lot of their batteries in long haul trucks. The batteries are not lasting as long as they would under ideal conditions but apparently the truckers are getting about 3 1/2 years out of the batteries after driving almost every day, often all day." Since I don't drive 8 hours every day, and my RV is at rest at least 6 months a year, I've concluded the 14.4v charging while driving issue might reduce the life of my AGMs somewhat, but it's unlikely to reduce it to less than 5 years. My second SOB's alternator charges at 13v, so its 3 Lifeline 8D AGMs are apparently totally safe from this issue, which probably means they'll not only outlast 5 years but also me ;o)best, paul ___ 'Thriving not Surviving' See our websites at www. LazyDazers.com www. Bike70th.net www. SMARTERyellowpages.com & www. ReformUSCongress.org
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #18 – April 03, 2010, 12:42:07 am Yahoo Message Number: 111534Bumper, An MPPT will likely only perform 10-15% better (over time) than a PWM controller (occasionally up to 30%). That's only 10-15W out of every 100W, which is only useful for a period of time when the battery is depleted. Once the battery is in absorption mode or nearing float mode the current the battery will accept will drop to a point where the panels won't be operating at their peak unless there is another load drawing or you have a large house bank. MPPT doesn't help after the battery can't accept the peak power. So if you have large array, which will pump a lot of constant current (continuous non changing), like as on a house grid tie solar system, then the array is only effective during the bulk charge mode. For example, your 400W array at ~25V peak could provide 16A peak, which may be as high as 38A when used with a MPPT (buck converter) with a 10V discharged battery. You may get 10% more power, or about 4A over a PWM system for the bulk charge period of time. Now because the battery is varying in voltage and current as it charges, the panel power accepted decreases the current decreases at the time when the applied voltage is kept essentially flat (at or around the absorption/float level). As I said earlier, if the panel voltage is only slightly higher than the battery voltage, then a PWM controller works fine for the price. If the panel voltage is at 36V then when applied on a 12V battery the MPPT may be the better choice as it will multiply current, but only when the battery will accept it. Finally, it is very important to match the array size to the battery Ahr size, you need to make sure you get it fully charged or it won't last. I believe a lot of marketing goes along with controller features, so unless one understands the system operation, then sometimes the "feature" sounds great when it doesn't always help too much unless matched to a certain system. The other feature that PWM controller has is the current/voltage pulsing which will help extend battery life by reducing the effects of sulphate plating. Finally, always use a battery temp sensor with the controller. If you are wondering, I used to work for a solar electronics company and got play around with some of these products and it's the system design that counts as the controller products are made to be somewhat utilitarian or one size fits all. Ian_ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!http://www.flickr.com/gift/
Re: Concern about Heliotrope.... Reply #19 – April 03, 2010, 02:23:13 am Yahoo Message Number: 111535QuoteAn MPPT will likely only perform 10-15% better (over time) than a PWM controller (occasionally up to 30%). That's only 10-15W out of every 100W, which is only useful for a period of time when the battery is depleted. Once the battery is in absorption mode or nearing float mode the current the battery will accept will drop to a point where the panels won't be operating at their peak unless there is another load drawing or you have a large house bank. MPPT doesn't help after the battery can't accept the peak power. What is easy to forget is that the solar array is available not just to charge batteries, but also to power appliance use in daylight hours. An MPPT controller may not supply any more charge current to a nearly fully charged battery bank than a PWM model, but it can supply the extra current to power, say, your laptop, water pump, Fantastic Fan, etc. Therefore, an MPPT controller has the advantage whenever you are using stuff, whether the batteries are replenished or not.Steve
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