New Member looking for info July 19, 2009, 11:00:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104012We purchased a 1990 26.5 ft LD in Ca a couple of years ago and drove it home to NC. We have used it for a few trips but I am now retired and we plan to use it more. The unit is in good overall condition with only 28,000 miles on it. Obviously, it was not used much before we got it. I recently had the roof AC replaced and used a discount coupon from Camping World to have them do a 45 point inspection. I had already checked out everything myself, so I was not surprised that the inspection failed to identify any problems.I am seeking info on two subjects:1. Towing a small car (1995 Honda Accord) Until we can determine how much we will travel, I would rather not invest $1,000+ for braking on the towed vehicle. I know that brakes would be safer, but is it generally safe to tow the car without brakes on it? 2. The unit has "corrosion bubbles" scattered along the lower exterior body panels. I plan to grind or sand these and fill them and repaint before they get worse. I am seeking details on the best method and products to go about this.Response and info will be greatly appreciated.JBI, Greensboro, NC
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #1 – July 19, 2009, 11:23:37 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104014Regardless of the safety aspects - in most staes anything over 3000 lbs requires brakes. An accident in that situation might be grounds for a ticket, a lawsuit and perhaps cancellation of insurance. A lighter vehicle I would be tempted (have done it before) but not with a heavier toad.Regards,ray--
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #2 – July 20, 2009, 08:35:53 am Yahoo Message Number: 104017Quote1. Towing a small car (1995 Honda Accord) Until we can determine how much we will travel, I would rather not invest $1,000+ for braking on the towed vehicle. I know that brakes would be safer, but is it generally safe to tow the car without brakes on it? Would you drive without wearing a seat belt? Would you drive at night without headlights? Would you drive without working brakes in the LD? While you may not ever have any problems towing a car without supplemental brakes, in a panic stop they could mean the difference between having an accident or not having one. This is a safety issue...how much is it worth to you to keep you and your family safe? If you are not prepared to spend the money on supplemental brakes for the toad, either leave it behind or one of you drive the LD and the other the car.Linda Hylton http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
New Member looking for info Reply #3 – July 20, 2009, 08:53:33 am Yahoo Message Number: 104018JBI, in my former life I did, among other things, accident investigation and reconstruction. When you add weight to your rig, it adds weight, and thus, friction, to your tires. The added weight of the vehicle and its inertia is offset by increased braking force. The net result is little effect on braking distance. When you attach something to the hitch without independent braking, there is no increase in tire friction and braking force on your rig, but there is a significant increase in inertia for the combined system. For something the weight of a car, the result is much longer braking distances. If I were driving below 25 mph, for a few miles, on a low volume road with few kids around, I might be tempted to not hook up the brakes. At higher speeds, the increases in braking distance are just too extreme.You cannot make up that difference with hyper-attentiveness. In an emergency, you will not be able to stop in a "normal" distance. If that means you hit someone, you will be at fault, just as if you drove your vehicle knowing that it had no rear brakes or some other defect that reduced its braking capability. Remember, that is what you would be doing - deliberately reducing your rig's braking capability. Can you imagine what a lawyer would do with that in today's litigious society? Ken F
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #4 – July 20, 2009, 09:50:48 am Yahoo Message Number: 104020"I would rather not invest $1,000+ for braking on the towed vehicle." I agree with those who say that both common sense and the law require toad brakes, but they need not cost $1,000+. Check out the ReadyBrake system. It's simple, reliable, our members who use it say it works very well--and you can get one for less than $500 and install it yourself if you're moderately handy. I would have used ReadyBrake on my Honda Fit, but couldn't get access to the engone compartment side of the firewall behind the brake pedal--a requirement for this system. If you can get to that area on your Accord, ReadyBrake is a good way to go. Otherwise, I agree with Linda: either leave the car at home, or drive it separately.http://www.readybrake.com/brake-systems.html>Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #5 – July 20, 2009, 10:02:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 104021Ken, good analysis for the group. This is why a lot of states ( Ca.) have lower weight limits for towing. I believe they are 1900 lbs. I believe Az. is lower than 3000 lbs. I have found that mine (Brake Buddy) rarely comes on but I usually plan ahead and typically go 55 mph. Nice to know I have it in case. Take care, john leach, Prescott, Az.__
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #6 – July 20, 2009, 10:20:15 am Yahoo Message Number: 104022California does not have lower limits for towing. In fact CA does not regulate based on tow weight. They regulate based on stopping distance.Here is the California regulation:Baking System: Towing Vehicles26458. (a) The braking system on every motor vehicle used to tow another vehicle shall be so arranged that one control on the towing vehicle shall, when applied, operate all the service brakes on the power unit and combination of vehicles when either or both of the following conditions exist: (1) The towing vehicle is required to be equipped with power brakes.(2) The towed vehicle is required to be equipped with brakes and is equipped with power brakes. (b) Subdivision (a) shall not be construed to prohibit motor vehicles from being equipped with an additional control to be used to operate the brakes on the trailer or trailers.(c) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following combinations of vehicles, if the combination of vehicles meets the stopping distance requirements of Section 26454:(1) Vehicles engaged in driveaway-towaway operations.(2) Disabled vehicles, while being towed.(3) Towed motor vehicles.(4) Trailers equipped with inertially controlled brakes which are designed to be applied automatically upon breakaway from the towing vehicle and which are capable of stopping and holding the trailer stationary for not less than 15 minutes.Notice there is no mention of 1500lbs. Even though there is a often referenced web page that claims otherwise.best, paul"Thriving not surviving" - Paul Schaye (at 2008 NYC Marathon)
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #7 – July 20, 2009, 01:06:03 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104029Ken, That's a good post. Thanks. I will leave the full text for those who did not read the original carefully.Barry Where are we? http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=122
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #8 – July 20, 2009, 05:39:30 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104042Thanks for the detail on braking. I suspected as much but wanted to be sure. The only reason I thought that it might be OK was because I see so many utility and work trailers on the road with no brakes. I am fairly certain that some of these carry loads that make them heavier than a small car. I will check out the ReadyBrake recommended by Andy Baird.JBI (Jim)
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #9 – July 20, 2009, 05:45:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104043I appreciate the detail on braking. A NC patrolman told me that it was legal to tow a vehicle up of up to 3,000 lbs without brakes. However, as pointed out by other members and you, weight is not the only critical factor.JBI
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #10 – July 20, 2009, 05:54:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104044Thanks Ray. A highway patrolman here
How safe is safe? Reply #11 – July 20, 2009, 07:15:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104046Most of us here are old enough to remember what safety was like 3 or 4 decades ago.Airbags? Seatbelts? Tubeless tires? Disk brakes? ABS? ETC... What was safe then is no longer safe today. Have things really changed that much, or have we and technology (and all the marketing that goes with it) changed? If money is not a concern, then go ahead and spend money to buy that safety or peace of mind or "it's the safe thing to do". Otherwise, make your own decision (as long as it's legal) based your knowledge on the subject. There are plenty of reasons to be "safer", but not all of them make a significant difference (is there a real need for a gazillion airbags
Re: How safe is safe? Reply #12 – July 20, 2009, 08:26:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104047Quote Most of us here are old enough to remember what safety was like 3 or 4 decades ago.Airbags? Seatbelts? Tubeless tires? Disk brakes? ABS? ETC...What was safe then is no longer safe today. .. ... There are plenty of reasons to be "safer", but not all of them make a significant difference (is there a real need for a gazillion airbags in a car?) It's true that some of the newer safety features provide a very small increment of protection, but the laws of physics do not change. Some of us have very painful memories of what can happen to unbelted passengers in a highway collision. Fatalities (adjusted for miles traveled) dropped 27% between 1994 and 2008.Joanne in Boston NE-44
Re: How safe is safe? Reply #13 – July 20, 2009, 09:01:03 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104049"Airbags? Seatbelts?... What was safe then is no longer safe today. Have things really changed that much...?" The laws of physics and human physiology haven't changed at all. What's changed is the number of needless deaths and injuries that we're willing to accept. To rephrase your sentence more accurately, what was *acceptable* then is no longer acceptable today. Remember, only a hundred years ago, a 52-year average lifespan was considered "acceptable," as was a 12% infant mortality rate. (Today's numbers are 77 years and 0.6%.) Our standards change as we learn how to save lives. As Joanne noted, driving without seatbelts or airbags was never safe. Most of the safety features you mentioned have come into widespread use precisely because they've been proven to reduce deaths and injuries. Ask any doctor, emergency medical technician, or police officer you meet whether that's worthwhile. They've seen the results of vehicular accidents with unprotected occupants: the shattered bodies, the spattered brains, the avulsed eyeballs. (I know, because I used to chat with EMT friends.) When you say "If money is not a concern, then go ahead and spend money to buy that safety...", you make it sound as if safety is some kind of platinum-plated Rolex--a luxury for the rich. I disagree. Safety is for people who care about other people. 'Nuff said.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: How safe is safe? Reply #14 – July 20, 2009, 09:18:26 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104050I expected that from you Andy, really. But I stand by my FULL comment, which you cut short, which makes it seem out of context. Yes, some safety are for the "platinum-plated" Rolex (your word, not mine) and ignorant (my word) rich. Like trading
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #15 – July 21, 2009, 01:04:05 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104059Quote I appreciate the detail on braking. A NC patrolman told me that it was legal to tow a vehicle up of up to 3,000 lbs without brakes. However, as pointed out by other members and you, weight is not the only critical factor.JBI--- On Mon, 7/20/09, Paul Smith wrote: From: Paul Smith Subject: Re: [LD] Re:New Member looking for info To: lifewithalazydazerv@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 10:20 AMCalifornia does not have lower limits for towing. In fact CA does not regulate based on tow weight. They regulate based on stopping distance.Here is the California regulation:Baking System: Towing Vehicles26458. (a) The braking system on every motor vehicle used to tow another vehicle shall be so arranged that one control on the towing vehicle shall, when applied, operate all the service brakes on the power unit and combination of vehicles when either or both of the following conditions exist: (1) The towing vehicle is required to be equipped with power brakes.(2) The towed vehicle is required to be equipped with brakes and is equipped with power brakes. (b) Subdivision (a) shall not be construed to prohibit motor vehicles from being equipped with an additional control to be used to operate the brakes on the trailer or trailers.(c) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following combinations of vehicles, if the combination of vehicles meets the stopping distance requirements of Section 26454:(1) Vehicles engaged in driveaway-towaway operations.(2) Disabled vehicles, while being towed.(3) Towed motor vehicles.(4) Trailers equipped with inertially controlled brakes which are designed to be applied automatically upon breakaway from the towing vehicle and which are capable of stopping and holding the trailer stationary for not less than 15 minutes.Notice there is no mention of 1500lbs. Even though there is a often referenced web page that claims otherwise.best, paul"Thriving not surviving" - Paul Schaye (at 2008 NYC Marathon)Ken, good analysis for the group. This is why a lot of states ( Ca.) have lower weight limits for towing. I believe they are 1900 lbs. I believe Az. is lower than 3000 lbs. I have found that mine (Brake Buddy) rarely comes on but I usually plan ahead and typically go 55 mph. Nice to know I have it in case. Take care, john leach, Prescott, Az. Greetings you all: Not to beat a dead horse.... The CA vehicle code article 26303 does mention that you must have trailer brakes for anything over 1500 lbs. It refers to "trailers", by its own definition a towed motor vehicle is not a trailer. That is where article 26454(5) comes into place and it states that a combination of vehicles must stop within 50 ft at 20 mph. Now comes the common sense part...can I stop faster with brakes on my toad??Safe travels,JohnQuote[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #16 – July 21, 2009, 03:19:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104060My comment was more to the issue of (1) a lot of mis-information out there in RV land on state regulations about towed vehicles and (2) claims that anyone without tow brakes is legally liable in case of an accident. I think the legal issue might be more along the lines of, "Am I in compliance with the law?" rather than, "Have I done all I can to be safe?" or "Have I done every thing possible to reduce my risk to the absolute minimum?"The real issue is risk management, not striving to attain the impossible of reducing the risk to zero. For example, another poster pointed out they reduce their speed. I agree with that. Even with my tow brake system on, I still do not drive as fast as I do when I am not towing. Another issue is the size of the RV relative to the tow. When we had a 30,000lb Foretravel we never knew we had a Honda Element in the back. And between the Foretravel's retarder and its air brakes I don't think having the Honda brakes on made much of a difference at all. (Our LD has great brakes, but I sure miss the Foretravel's retarder.)Another risk reduction practice I use is to keep a much larger distance than normal between me and the vehicle I'm following. I do this even while driving the Element. Another is to check all mirrors on a regular frequent rotation. Another is not to talk on a cell phone while driving, regardless of local laws. Another is to typically drive in the right lane somewhat slower than traffic so they are always passing me, and I need to pass few. Another is tire pressure, don't drive at night, drive slow in cities, yada, yada, yada...I guess my point is there are many factors to consider about how to drive an RV safely, and the discussion misses the mark if it starts and ends with tow brakes. I do know that as I drive, safety is uppermost in my mind. And the factors affecting safety change frequently.In view of the above vis a vis brakes, my common sense contribution might be something like, "What can I do to reduce the need for emergency stops?"best, paul"Thriving not surviving" - Paul Schaye (at 2008 NYC Marathon)
Re: New Member looking for info- towing a '95 Honda Accord Reply #17 – July 21, 2009, 04:00:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104061Quote "...1. Towing a small car (1995 Honda Accord) Until we can determine how much we will travel, I would rather not invest $1,000+ for braking on the towed vehicle. I know that brakes would be safer, but is it generally safe to tow the car without brakes on it?..."JBI, Greensboro, NC James, I have been towing a 1995 Honda Accord with our '02 30' for 7 years with no problems. I believe it weighs around 3000 lbs. I use a Blue Ox Aventa II tow bar and a Brake Buddy braking system. The BB has worked well but I would probably get some SMI model were I to buy again so it would be a permanent installation. I am thinking next year I will look for a low mileage 2007 Honda CR-V AWD to replace the Accord.Chris
Re: New Member looking for info Reply #18 – July 21, 2009, 04:04:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104063Thanks aga
Re: New Member looking for info- towing a '95 Honda Accord Reply #19 – July 21, 2009, 04:06:36 pm Yahoo Message Number: 104064That's exactly what we've had for over 4 years. Blue Ox Aventa II and SMI Stay-IN-Play (setting up your tow takes the click of one switch). Highly recommended!best, paul
Re: How safe is safe? Reply #20 – July 23, 2009, 07:52:02 am Yahoo Message Number: 104109When you say "If money is not a concern, then go ahead and spend money to buy that safety...", you make it sound as if safety is some kind of platinum-plated Rolex--a luxury for the rich. I disagree. Safety is for people who care about other people. 'Nuff said.Andy, I'm just curious. Since the ReadyBrake did not work out on your Honda Fit, what braking system are you using?Laurie
Re: How safe is safe? Reply #21 – July 23, 2009, 09:28:29 am Yahoo Message Number: 104113"Since the ReadyBrake did not work out on your Honda Fit, what braking system are you using?" I have the US Gear Unified Tow Brake. I'm very happy with it, but it was a lot more expensive than a ReadyBrake would have been.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
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