Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? February 14, 2009, 08:34:00 am Yahoo Message Number: 99306On my 82 LD FL, the factory put a 40amp fuse between the isolator and the coach battery.1) If I were to upgrade my alternator to 100amp, should I also change that fuse to 60amp or higher? Of course I also need to upgrade the wire as well. Would this cause any problem? 2) Is that fuse really necessary? What problem is it trying to prevent?Thanks,Sam
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #1 – February 14, 2009, 08:57:27 am Yahoo Message Number: 99308QuoteHi Sam, I suspect they chose the fuse based on the wiring they installed for that circuit. Most automotive fuses are there to protect the wiring in the vehicle. An ex-boss of mine can attest to this after he defeated a fuse in his car and then the pillar between the windshield and the door got too hot to touch.Quote...snip... 2) Is that fuse really necessary? What problem is it trying to prevent? ...snip...Safe Travels, Dave N 2000 RB Albuquerque
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #2 – February 14, 2009, 03:20:47 pm Yahoo Message Number: 99323QuoteI suspect they chose the fuse based on the wiring they installed for that circuit. Most automotive fuses are there to protect the wiring in the vehicle. That's what I initially thought too. But that's not the case. This is a 6 foot long wire, which begins at the isolator and ends at the coach battery positive post. The fuse is positioned about 4 ft from the isolator and 2 ft from the battery. So the only thing it can protect is the last 2 ft of wiring.Sam
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #3 – February 14, 2009, 06:08:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 99328Quote On my 82 LD FL, the factory put a 40amp fuse between the isolator and the coach battery. I looked at it more carefully, and it's actually a sophisticated fuse: 40amp Auto Reset Circuit Breaker.Still don't know what it's for.Sam
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #4 – February 14, 2009, 08:20:05 pm Yahoo Message Number: 99329"The fuse is positioned about 4 ft from the isolator and 2 ft from the battery. So the only thing it can protect is the last 2 ft of wiring."A fuse anywhere in a circuit protects the whole circuit, since electricity stops flowing in the whole circuit when the fuse blows.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #5 – February 14, 2009, 09:36:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 99335QuoteA fuse anywhere in a circuit protects the whole circuit, since electricity stops flowing in the whole circuit when the fuse blows. Of course, you're right, Andy, in theory. However in this case the isolator does not draw current, the battery does.
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #6 – February 14, 2009, 09:50:26 pm Yahoo Message Number: 99336On Feb 14, 2009, at 10:36 PM, Sam wrote:
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #7 – February 14, 2009, 10:38:54 pm Yahoo Message Number: 99337"you're right, Andy, in theory."And in practice. :-) This isn't hair-splitting, it's simply the way electricity works. There's no such thing as a fuse that protects the wire on one side of it but not on the other side. When a fuse blows due to excess current (and remember, current is by definition the same at all points in a series circuit), the entire circuit is de-energized, preventing overheating and fire.The answer to your original question--why did Lazy Daze put the 40A fuse there?--is the same as for any fuse or circuit breaker: it was put there to prevent excessive current (due to a short circuit, component failure, or other reason) from causing a fire. In other words, there's no great mystery here, just standard electrical engineering practice.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #8 – February 14, 2009, 11:21:40 pm Yahoo Message Number: 99338Quote From: Andy Baird To: lifewithalazydazerv@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 8:38 PM Subject: [LD] Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps?"you're right, Andy, in theory."And in practice. :-) This isn't hair-splitting, it's simply the way electricity works. There's no such thing as a fuse that protects the wire on one side of it but not on the other side. When a fuse blows due to excess current (and remember, current is by definition the same at all points in a series circuit), the entire circuit is de-energized, preventing overheating and fire.Andy, Respectfully, that's not my understanding. Consider a fuse installed some distance from the battery in a chassis ground (negative) system like our LDs. Let's say the fuse is 2 feet away from the battery and wired in series with the positive battery terminal. That fuse will protect only that portion of the circuit (wire etc) downstream or further away from the battery than is the fuse. e.g. if the wire one foot from our battery should chafe through and touch chassis ground, there will potentially be a catastrophic failure (much spitzen sparkin!) and the fuse will not blow or protect from this. Current will flow from the negative battery terminal through the chassis (ground), to the chafed shorted wire and then back to the battery positive terminal completing the circuit. Note that this current surge will not go through the fuse. It should be obvious why it is considered good practice to install the fuse panel, or a main, larger fuse as close to the battery as practicable.all the best, bumper (ex Navy Electronics Tech, licensed electrician in CA - - - though I sure wouldn't want to live in a house I wired.) Yonder
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #9 – February 15, 2009, 12:29:03 am Yahoo Message Number: 99341QuoteI looked at it more carefully, and it's actually a sophisticated fuse: 40amp Auto Reset Circuit Breaker.Still don't know what it's for. Sam, our '83 has two of these mounted on the firewall, one protecting the run from the battery to the isolator, the other from the battery to the converter panel. The coach battery can deliver hundreds of amps if either line develops a short, so as Andy said, they protect the wiring runs and prevent a fire. Of course the short pigtails from the battery to these CB's COULD develop a short, but it is both unlikely and not as dangerous if they incinerate.Steve
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #10 – February 15, 2009, 07:11:15 am Yahoo Message Number: 99343Quote Sam, our '83 has two of these mounted on the firewall, one protecting the run from the battery to the isolator, the other from the battery to the converter panel. Steve,Yes, I saw the second one (going into the coach) too, and that one makes sense to me. So, it appears to me that it does not make a lot of sense to upgrade to a higher capacity alternator if one were to keep the same one wire circuit from the isolator to the battery. Am I missing something?Thanks,Sam
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #11 – February 15, 2009, 07:18:50 am Yahoo Message Number: 99344Quote ..., the other from the battery to the converter panel. Steve, I saw a 0.3V drop across this circuit breaker under a 90watt load (3 fluorescent lights on), and the circuit breaker was a little too warm (not hot) to the touch. Is that normal?Thanks,Sam
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #12 – February 15, 2009, 08:41:26 am Yahoo Message Number: 99346QuoteSo, it appears to me that it does not make a lot of sense to upgrade to a higher capacity alternator if one were to keep the same one wire circuit from the isolator to the battery. Am I missing something? Yes. If what you have currently is a 45A alternator, that must supply about 25A or so to the headlights on brights, plus all the running lights, plus ignition, plus charge a chassis battery possibly depleted from a cold morning start, plus supply any 12V accesories in the coach you are running enroute, including 15-20A to the fridge.... AND charge a coach battery you may have depleted in several days camping. I also am led to believe you may soon be more than doubling the capacity of your current coach battery. All this really calls for a higher charge capacity.Most of us who have done upgrades have also replaced some of the wiring and those circuit breakers. Since I no longer have a coach battery up front, I also upgraded the wiring to the new location, replacing the circuit breakers with a binding post, and installing a pair of 100A fuses in the new location.Steve
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #13 – February 15, 2009, 08:45:28 am Yahoo Message Number: 99347QuoteI saw a 0.3V drop across this circuit breaker under a 90watt load (3 fluorescent lights on), and the circuit breaker was a little too warm (not hot) to the touch. Is that normal? Normal at the age...but not good. You can get good high-amperage fuses and fixtures at high-end car audio outlets (including Walmart), intended to supply amps pumping out 1000 watts of sub-bass. Fuses are better - no internal contacts to deteriorate.Steve
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #14 – February 15, 2009, 08:53:17 am Yahoo Message Number: 99348Quote Yes. If what you have currently is a 45A alternator, that must supply about 25A or so to the headlights on brights, plus all the running lights, plus ignition, plus charge a chassis battery possibly depleted from a cold morning start, plus supply any 12V accesories in the coach you are running enroute, including 15-20A to the fridge.... AND charge a coach battery you may have depleted in several days camping. I also am led to believe you may soon be more than doubling the capacity of your current coach battery. All this really calls for a higher charge capacity.Most of us who have done upgrades have also replaced some of the wiring and those circuit breakers. Since I no longer have a coach battery up front, I also upgraded the wiring to the new location, replacing the circuit breakers with a binding post, and installing a pair of 100A fuses in the new location.Steve Thanks, Steve. I currently have a 64amp Duralast alternator. I plan to upgrade my current 75AH battery to either a single 125AH battery (engine compartment) or two 125AH batteries (right side, underneath lounge area.Sam
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #15 – February 15, 2009, 08:55:52 am Yahoo Message Number: 99350QuoteNormal at the age...but not good. You can get good high-amperage fuses and fixtures at high-end car audio outlets (including Walmart), intended to supply amps pumping out 1000 watts of sub-bass. Fuses are better - no internal contacts to deteriorate. Excellent. Will do that when I upgrade the battery.Sam
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #16 – February 15, 2009, 09:23:17 am Yahoo Message Number: 99351"if the wire one foot from our battery should chafe through and touch chassis ground... the fuse will not blow or protect from this. Current will flow from the negative battery terminal through the chassis (ground), to the chafed shorted wire and then back to the battery positive terminal completing the circuit. Note that this current surge will not go through the fuse." You're right; I wasn't thinking of that scenario. My apologies to Sam for not understanding the setup he was describing.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #17 – February 16, 2009, 11:30:06 am Yahoo Message Number: 99383" I currently have a 64amp Duralast alternator."Sam An important fact to remember is that automotive alternators only produce their rated output when the alternator is cold. As they warm up, the output can significantly decrease. A few years ago, I pulled a 63-amp Delco alternator off a co-worker's MH and put it on the alternator-testing machine at work. It produced 60-amps cold but then dropped down to 45-amps after running under load for ten minutes. 45-amps is not enough output to provide much charging to the batteries when the engine, dash A/C and headlights are operating. Ford got it right when it started installing 130-amp alternators in the E350/450 cutaway chassis.Larry
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #18 – February 16, 2009, 11:54:44 am Yahoo Message Number: 99384QuoteSam An important fact to remember is that automotive alternators only produce their rated output when the alternator is cold. As they warm up, the output can significantly decrease.A few years ago, I pulled a 63-amp Delco alternator off a co- worker'sQuoteMH and put it on the alternator-testing machine at work. It produced 60-amps cold but then dropped down to 45-amps after running under load for ten minutes. 45-amps is not enough output to provide much charging to the batteries when the engine, dash A/C and headlights are operating. Ford got it right when it started installing 130-amp alternators in the E350/450 cutaway chassis.Larry Thanks, Larry, for the info. There is one more piece of information that seems to be missing. For example, I'm looking at this 94Amp alternator, and I can't find the RPM (alternator, not engine) at which it is rated.BTW, my current one is a 63amp alternator too (I mistyped 64 in the previous post.)Sam
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #19 – February 16, 2009, 12:29:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 99386"There is one more piece of information that seems to be missing. For example, I'm looking at this 94Amp alternator, and I can't find the RPM (alternator, not engine) at which it is rated."SamThis is the type of information that has mostly disappeared with electronic catalogues. Back in the day of paper catalogues, there was a great deal of information available.FYI. From my own experience, most alternators are set up so they provide maximum output at 1800-2000 engine RPM. Alternators usually spin at 2-3 times faster than the engine so figure 4000-6000 RPM. Some alternators are set up to provide high output at or near idle. Many times these will be labeled for police or ambulance use, vehicles in which long periods of idling are common. You will find that these alternators have a smaller pulley that increases spin speed at low RPMs.Larry
Re: Why did LD limit the charging rate to 40 amps? Reply #20 – February 16, 2009, 06:55:38 pm Yahoo Message Number: 99403Andy, I hate to disagree with you, but I think you haven't considered all options. If there is a short to ground on the battery side of the fuse, the wire from the battery to the short can and possibly will melt and cause a fire. The fuse is only for the portion of the wire after the fuse.A fuse should be put as close to the energy source as possible. I had this pointed out to me by an airplane mechanic after I installed a new digital clock (almost unheard of at the time) improperly.Barry Where are we? http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=122