Saving propane December 31, 2007, 09:41:39 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87756I recently received the inexpensive aquarium thermometer that I'd ordered based on advice offered here. I installed its probe on my water heater--an easy task; I just reached in through a drawer opening and slipped the wired probe inside the water heater's styrofoam insulating jacket at the midline.I'm delighted with the way it works! This is the best way to save propane yet. In the morning I turn on the water heater... then when the thermometer beeps, I turn it off and take my shower with the hot faucet turned on full, confident that the water will be at the perfect temperature with no need for mixing. I only use exactly as much propane as is needed to attain the desired temperature--never an ounce more. I don't have to set a timer for twenty minutes or watch a thermometer as I used to do. And my propane lasts just about forever!I got my Mannix AQ150 digital aquarium thermometer from . I can't recommend this simple device too highly. For a measly twenty bucks (including postage) it provides convenience, comfort and saves money. You can't beat that combination! :-)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Saving propane Reply #1 – January 01, 2008, 11:46:02 am Yahoo Message Number: 87781Quote I recently received the inexpensive aquarium thermometer that I'd ordered based on advice offered here. I installed its probe on my water heater--an easy task; I just reached in through a drawer opening and slipped the wired probe inside the water heater's styrofoam insulating jacket at the midline.I'm delighted with the way it works! This is the best way to save propane yet. In the morning I turn on the water heater... then when the thermometer beeps, I turn it off and take my shower with the hot faucet turned on full, confident that the water will be at the perfect temperature with no need for mixing. I only use exactly as much propane as is needed to attain the desired temperature--never an ounce more. I don't have to set a timer for twenty minutes or watch a thermometer as I used to do. And my propane lasts just about forever!I got my Mannix AQ150 digital aquarium thermometer from . I can't recommend this simple device too highly. For a measly twenty bucks (including postage) it provides convenience, comfort and saves money. You can't beat that combination! :-)Quote Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/ Did you stick the probe through the styrofoam so it contacts the metal tank? Where did you put the display?Jim
Re: Saving propane Reply #2 – January 01, 2008, 11:48:00 am Yahoo Message Number: 87782In CW the other day I saw an electrical heating element that you install in place of the drain plug. Cost was $95. Has anyone tried that and how does that work out? Also, where did you plug in the electric cord?Jim
Re: Saving propane Reply #3 – January 01, 2008, 02:21:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87790"In CW the other day I saw an electrical heating element that you install in place of the drain plug." When I was at Life On Wheels, the instructor for the technical course on RCV refrigerators (Steve Savage) strongly recommended against it. As an RV repairman, he said he'd seen too many of these things cause water heater failures or get stuck in place. Apparently they cause electrolysis, corrosion, etc. Admittedly this is hearsay, but from a pretty knowledgeable source. That alone would rule it out as far as I'm concerned.Even if there were no risk, consider what a small percentage of propane use the water heater accounts for. If you follow the aquarium-thermometer method I described here yesterday, you're going to be running the water heater only ten to twenty minutes a day, depending on the climate. The vast majority of your propane use is going to be due to heating and cooking, so subtracting the tiny amount used in heating water won't save you much.For example, I used an average of $21.16 worth of propane per month last year. If I could save 10% by heating water electrically, that would mean I'd save $25 a year. But even that number assumes I'd use the electrical heating element year round, which of course I wouldn't--I don't like to be tied to hookups except when it's really cold or hot. A more realistic figure would probably be ten bucks a year. At that rate, it would take ten years to recoup the cost of an electrical water heater element--assuming it didn't destroy my heater before that!The bottom line is that while this sounds like a good idea at first glance, it isn't, in my humble opinion.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Saving propane Reply #4 – January 01, 2008, 02:29:10 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87791"Did you stick the probe through the styrofoam so it contacts the metal tank?"The water heater's insulating jacket is made of two pieces of rigid styrofoam--an upper section and a lower section. I simply slid the probe into the equatorial gap between the two halves until it was touching the tank."Where did you put the display?"At eye level on the wall to the right of the wardrobe door. In my midbath, the water heater is below that location... so it was easy to snake the thermometer's thin wire up from a wardrobe drawer opening to the display. For what it's worth, there's a little overshoot once you turn off the water heater, and the temperature on the outside of the tank (at least at the midline) is not exactly equal to the water temperature... so what I found by experimentation was that setting the alarm to 91.6 degrees F. got me a final water temperature of 105 degrees, which is what I like. Once I arrived at that setting, no further fiddling was needed... all I have to do is push the alarm button each morning before I turn on the water heater, and the thermometer does the rest. :-)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
30th Anniversary Calendar Reply #5 – January 01, 2008, 04:38:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87795The July 2007 photograph on the 30th Anniversary Calendar shows six LD's [on Chevy chassis] on a dirt road titled "Along the Colorado River, Arizona. That looks like my kind of place. I am hopeful that someone on this list can identify the location with some specificity.No sense in further cluttering the list, so please send replies off list. Thanks Home is where you roam Don & Dorothy, new to the cult Koko & Pelli
Re: Saving propane Reply #6 – January 01, 2008, 11:56:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87808Andy,I'm curious if you have a special technique that's also applicable to camping in very cold weather. Your timed shower approach has worked wonderfully in moderate weather and the thermostat sounds like a nice refinement. But, they may not work for very cold (sustained average sub-zero temps for several days) conditions.The LD manual recommends leaving the water heater on all the time in very cold weather (or draining it). Assuming one wishes to still use water, that would require leaving it on.Now, It's tempting to suggest that all that's needed is to keep the water heater above freezing. Presumably one could rig an alarm or something (as has been suggested in emails in the LD group). But are there lines leading in/out that require radiant heating from the water heater flame and/or the body of hot water in the water heater tank? Such requirements might necessitate keeping the water heater at full temperature.I've never really understood why the water heater is different from any other part of the fresh water system which can be kept from freezing by heating the coach. Could it be that it has to be treated differently because the water heater is behind an uninsulated external hatch?Thanks, Michael Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: Saving propane Reply #7 – January 02, 2008, 12:09:11 am Yahoo Message Number: 87809Andy, I have one of the thermometers on order. Haven't looked at the tank yet. Do you think that pushing a bit of foam insulation into the crack, to cover the sensor, would decrease the spread between the reading and actual water temperature?bumper
Re: Saving propane - Add-on AC Water Heating Element Reply #8 – January 02, 2008, 01:19:33 am Yahoo Message Number: 87811On "Techsnoz" - you can get there through the "Links" on this site
Re: Saving propane Reply #9 – January 02, 2008, 12:47:29 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87820"Your timed shower approach has worked wonderfully in moderate weather and the thermostat sounds like a nice refinement. But, they may not work for very cold (sustained average sub-zero temps for several days) conditions."I can't answer that one, because I've never camped in temperatures below zero degrees Fahrenheit.However, I *have* camped pretty extensively in locations with overnight lows well below freezing ( 20 degrees F. here last night. Under those conditions, the water heater at its coldest (first thing in the morning, when it hasn't been running in 24 hours) is typically within about five degrees of the interior temperature. Since I don't let my interior drop below 45-50 degrees overnight, there's no risk of the water heater freezing. I don't even think about it. "The LD manual recommends leaving the water heater on all the time in very cold weather (or draining it)." I think that's carrying caution to an extreme, perhaps influenced by the fact that the people who wrote that manual have spent their entire lives in southern California. ;-) "I've never really understood why the water heater is different from any other part of the fresh water system which can be kept from freezing by heating the coach."It isn't--in fact, it's *less* likely to freeze than other parts of the freshwater system, because it's well insulated and is heated at least once a day. Again, I think LD is being hypercautious.And now to a question of Bumper's: "Do you think that pushing a bit of foam insulation into the crack, to cover the sensor, would decrease the spread between the reading and actual water temperature?"I doubt it would make much of a difference. You see, I pushed the probe into the crack and then *slid it laterally* underneath the foam--so it already has good insulation. :-) In practice, the difference between the thermometer's reading and the actual water temperature isn't really an issue, because you'll tweak the alarm setting until you achieve a comfortable water temperature in the shower--you won't care what the actual temperature is. Once you hit the right setting, you won't need to touch it again, and the actual temperature will be of academic interest only.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Saving propane Reply #10 – January 02, 2008, 02:14:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87822Quotepropane yet. In the morning I turn on the water heater... then when the thermometer beeps, I turn it off and take my shower with the hot faucet turned on full, confident that the water will be at the perfect temperature with no need for mixing. Hi Andy, Does the water not get cooler during the shower as the hot water you use gets replaced by cold?Ginger
Re: Saving propane Reply #11 – January 02, 2008, 03:02:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87823I'm not Andy, but when I use this method, it's pretty much when we're drycamping, hence, I'm
Re: Saving propane Reply #12 – January 02, 2008, 05:16:44 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87826"Does the water not get cooler during the shower as the hot water you use gets replaced by cold?" As Kate said, when showering thriftily, one uses so little water that no loss in temperature is noticeable. Remember, the water heater holds six gallons of hot water. Kate uses three gallons; I have less hair than she does, so I typically use just a bit over a gallon to shower and wash my hair every morning. Either way, cooling off isn't a problem. :-)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Saving propane Reply #13 – January 02, 2008, 09:15:11 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87828QuoteHowever, I *have* camped pretty extensively in locations with overnight lows well below freezing (< 32 degrees F.)--in fact, it was 20 degrees F. here last night. Under those conditions, the water heater at its coldest (first thing in the morning, when it hasn't been running in 24 hours) is typically within about five degrees of the interior temperature. Since I don't let my interior drop below 45-50 degrees overnight, there's no risk of the water heater freezing. I don't even think about it. Well, that's very encouraging! When I said "below zero" I was temporarily thinking in centigrade, so it sounds like I'll also be OK. I just keep monitoring the temp. I've just spent the last two days installing grey/black tank heaters and heat tape along the ABS pipes running from the tanks to the valves. I have no idea if this system will work, but it sounded (from the archives) like others have had success with this approach. I plan to occasionally retreat to a full-hookup RV park and use their AC to (hopefully) thaw out my tanks/valves so I can dump them. It'll be a big adventure! If I can't thaw the tanks, it'll be a short one! :-)-Michael
Re: Saving propane Reply #14 – January 02, 2008, 10:14:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87829MichaelWe've been here
Re: Holding tank heaters - Question to Michael Reply #15 – January 02, 2008, 10:21:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87830"...I've just spent the last two days installing grey/black tank heaters and heat tape along the ABS pipes running from the tanks to the valves. I have no idea if this system will work, but it sounded (from the archives) like others have had success with this approach. I plan to occasionally retreat to a full-hookup RV park and use their AC to (hopefully) thaw out my tanks/valves so I can dump them.It'll be a big adventure! If I can't thaw the tanks, it'll be a short one!" :-)Quote -Michael Michael, why don't you tell us what kind of grey/black tank heaters you installed and how you did it. Maybe you used UltraHeat heaters???Chris
Re: Holding tank heaters - Question to Michael Reply #16 – January 03, 2008, 11:27:16 am Yahoo Message Number: 87836Chris,I figured I'd wait till I determined the outcome of the experiment, but in case others wish to try it out in the meantime, here's what I did...I have a 2007 midbath. The grey water tank has an approximately 3 ft long 3" diameter ABS pipe that leads from the tank to the grey water dump valve. The black water tank has an approx. 18" long 3" diamter pipe from the tank to the black water dump valve.I used a Ultraheat pad (type 4200) on each of the grey and black tanks. These are self-sticking rubber pads which you apply to the bottom of the tanks. The 4200 models are designed for AC power only and cost about $108 each. They are rated for tanks up to 40 gallons. On the 2007 MB, the grey tank is 35 gallons and the black 28 gallons. Ultraheat's next smallest size is for 25 gallon tanks.The Ultraheat pads have a built in thermostat to turn on at/below 44 degrees and off at/above 64 degrees. I did not put any insulation on the tanks. Ultraheat says the pads can be used without insulation and I suspect it'll work fine since they get pretty hot. Before installing them, I tested them by plugging them in for a few minutes. They quickly got too hot to touch. Hopefully they won't damage the tanks (Ultraheat says they won't damage any kind of plastic tank). Ultraheat warns not to run the heaters without liquid in the tanks, presumably because they get too hot otherwise.I wrapped the grey water pipe with a 20' length of spiral wrapped EasyHeat Pipe Sentry tape. This tape is also thermostatically controlled to turn on when the temperature drops below 40 degrees. EasyHeat says this tape is safe for use on plastic pipes and can be wrapped over itself (many heat tapes cannot). They do not say the pipes have to have liquid in them. From all this, I infer that they are probably more gentle in their heating (and plugging in before installation seems to confirm this) and thus I decided to insulate the pipe after wrapping it with the tape. For insulation, I used that bubble wrap that has aluminum foil on the outer sides. It was a bit difficult to wrap the pipe because one section is very close to the bottom of a lower rear locker, but it's doable.For the black water, I used a 10' length of EasyHeat Pipe Sentry tape and then insulated the pipe.I've kept all the plugs separate for the time being. While trying out the system, I figured it might be useful to be able to plug in the four heaters separately. The four heaters are: the black tank, the black pipe, the grey tank, and the grey pipe.I decided not to use the Ultraheat pipe heaters because they only work on 12V DC. Since my strategy is to only thaw the tanks when they get relatively full and to do it by spending a day at a full-hookup RV park, I decided the ability to heat the tanks on DC wasn't useful. Besides, I think the batteries might have a hard time thawing the tanks as the Ultraheat pads use lots of power. In addition, the installation is much simpler with just AC because I simply leave the plugs under the RV and then use a separate extension cord to plug into shore power. If I tried to use a DC-based system, I would have had to drill a hole into the bottom of the LazyDaze and tap into the DC converter.I selected the EasyHeat Pipe Sentry tapes over other kinds of heating tape I looked at for several reasons: 1) The tape is relatively thin, so I could wrap it around the grey pipe where there was little clearance. 2) It's thermostatically controlled (most are). 3) It didn't require liquid in the pipe to safely use. I was concerned about the tapes that did require liquid because the upper sections of the drain pipes might be empty (hard to tell by looking at it -- might depend on how full the holding tank was). I think the tapes that require liquid in them are designed for things like pressurized water lines, not drain lines. 4) The instructions specifically say the tapes can be used for drain lines. 5) You can wrap the tape around itself. Many of the tapes disallow this. Although I didn't wrap any part of the tape around itself, it seemed like this was a "safer" kind of tape because presumably it's less prone to overheating.As I said in my previous post, I have no idea whether this system will work or not! Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on one's outlook), it's too warm here in California where I keep the RV to test the system. I will have to rely on field testing.I'm going to south eastern Utah. The lows will probably be around 7-15 degrees and the highs will probably range from 25-40 degrees. There tends to be a wide degree of variability, but this time of year, average temperatures (i.e. average the daytime high and the nighttime low) often are below freezing. I'll try to use all the tricks I've learned about from this group, like keeping the valves on the sunny side of the RV. I'll be up in that area for 2-3 weeks unless I can't thaw the tanks in which case I'll have to head south!I'll file a report on the success of this system when I've got some experience with it.-Michael Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: Holding tank heaters - Question to Michael Reply #17 – January 03, 2008, 11:47:40 am Yahoo Message Number: 87837Quote "...Chris,I figured I'd wait till I determined the outcome of the experiment, but in case others wish to try it out in the meantime, here's what I did...The Ultraheat pads have a built in thermostat to turn on at/below 44 degrees and off at/above 64 degrees. > I'll file a report on the success of this system whenQuoteI've got some experience with it..'-Michael Michael, thanks for the informative report. We will be interested in your follow-up report.One question: Knowing the UltraHeat pads are primarily to prevent holding tanks from freezing, why would the thermostat be set to activate and deactivate the pads as such a high temp range? It would seem that it should come on at around 34* and shut off maybe a little higher, say 36*. Can the thermostat be adjusted?Chris
Re: Holding tank heaters Reply #18 – January 03, 2008, 12:35:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87839Thanks for the very helpful detailed write-up, Michael! Keep us posted on how your system works out.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Saving propane Reply #19 – January 03, 2008, 01:44:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87841Quote MichaelWe've been here in San Antonio NM for the last 6 weeks or so and it is often below freezing at night. We don't have tank heaters, but we have wrapped our dump valves with electrical heat tape. We have hook ups here and our heat tape is set up to go on at 34 degrees and so far, we've been able to dump any time we want.Hope this is the kind of info you were looking for.Kate http://cholulared.blogspot.com &http://www.cholulared.comWant to find us? Click below, we're #3096 http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=3096On Jan 2, 2008, at 8:15 PM, msv087 wrote: However, I *have* camped pretty extensively in locations with > overnight lows well below freezing (< 32 degrees F.)--in fact, it was > 20 degrees F. here last night. Under those conditions, the water > heater at its coldest (first thing in the morning, when it hasn't been > running in 24 hours) is typically within about five degrees of the > interior temperature. Since I don't let my interior drop below 45-50 > degrees overnight, there's no risk of the water heater freezing. I > don't even think about it.Well, that's very encouraging! When I said "below zero" I was temporarily thinking in centigrade, so it sounds like I'll also be OK. I just keep monitoring the temp. I've just spent the last two days installing grey/black tank heaters and heat tape along the ABS pipes running from the tanks to the valves. I have no idea if this system will work, but it sounded (from the archives) like others have had success with this approach. I plan to occasionally retreat to a full-hookup RV park and use their AC to (hopefully) thaw out my tanks/valves so I can dump them. It'll be a big adventure! If I can't thaw the tanks, it'll be a short one! :-)-Michael[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Hi Kate Do you have pictures of this "heat tape" and any info on how it works? I am assuming you have to be hooked up to AC right? My dtr will becoming home from Las Cruces NM in a few days. She loves it there.Thanks for the info. Pat (Mac) "anxiously awaiting" (sound familiar?) Rainy, stormy No Calif
Re: Holding tank heaters - Question to Michael Reply #20 – January 03, 2008, 06:00:38 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87845On Jan 3, 2008, at 12:27, mike wrote:Quote it's too warm here in California where I keep the RV to test the system. I will have to rely on field testing. You should bring it here to Indiana. Was 0F here this morning-Dave '06 [frosty] MB, Indianapolis
Re: Holding tank heaters - Question to Michael Reply #21 – January 04, 2008, 11:27:30 am Yahoo Message Number: 87862The Ultraheat pads' thermostats are not adjustable. Neither are the Pipe Sentry tapes' thermostats. Frankly, I'm not completely sure why they both turn on the heating elements at 44 and 40 degrees respectively. Seems quite a bit above freezing. However, I can indulge in wild speculation! :-)I would guess that they've found, from experience, that if the thermostat is set to, say, 34 degrees, that parts of the holding tank will have already frozen at that temperature. That'd be because the top of the tank will be colder than the bottom (which has the heating pad on it). As long as there's water in the tank, the whole tank will not drop below 32 degrees. But, allowing ice to form means that more heat will have to be applied to add back the latent heat and melt it. Since the latent heat necessary is like a "step function", it requires more energy to perform the state conversion of ice to water than to simply raise the temperature of water. Thus, the process of melting the ice is energy inefficient compared with the energy required to simply keep the water a few degrees above freezing temperature. I'd guess that's why they set the thermostat high enough to supposedly guarantee that no part of the tank will freeze.My knowledge of thermodynamics is shaky at best (I'm an electrical engineer, not a mechanical engineer!), so maybe someone who knows better can correct my explanation if it's faulty.This explanation is part of the reason why I'm not sure my system will work. It takes a lot of energy to heat up, say, 20 degree ice to the melting point and then perform the state change to liquid. The heating pads/tapes are really meant to keep tanks/pipes in the liquid state and may not work so well at thawing already frozen and deeply sub-32 degree ice.-Michael Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: Saving propane Reply #22 – January 04, 2008, 12:30:11 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87867Hi Kate Do you have pictures of this "heat tape" and any info on how it works? I am assuming you have to be hooked up to AC right?PatI have posted pictures on the website, here's a link http://www.cholulared.com/AboutCholulaRed/Exterior.htmlYou have to scroll about 2/3 or the way down and you'll see the photo. And yes, you have to be hooked up for these to work, but we've been really happy with them. The other day, we went to dump and fill and all the water faucets we're frozen solid, but we dumped with no problems.Kate http://cholulared.blogspot.com &http://www.cholulared.comWant to find us? Click below, we're #3096 http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=3096[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 1 Likes
Re: Saving propane Reply #23 – January 05, 2008, 05:23:46 pm Yahoo Message Number: 87935QuoteI can wash my hair and shower in about 3 gallons of water this way, so no, the hotQuotedoesn't have time to mix and cool before I'm done. Good to know. I plan on dry camping a fair bit of the time. The idea is genius.Thanks Kate and Andy,Ginger
Re: Saving propane Reply #24 – January 27, 2008, 08:30:34 am Yahoo Message Number: 88914Quote In CW the other day I saw an electrical heating element that you install in place of the drain plug. Cost was $95.Has anyone tried that and how does that work out? Also, where did you plug in the electric cord?Jim I have a 06 23' fl model and have used this product for one season. On my model installation was very easy, only about 30 minutes. The furance and heater are next to each other, drill one small hole, cut the power cord and pass it thur, splice the cord and seal the hole. Just plug into the outlet for outside power. This is a 15 amp breaker, unit is 800 watts. Probe that goes in drain hole has quick disconnects, draining for winterizing is no harder than the other plug. Unit is only used with shore power, which I prefer to use if available. Not for dry camping. My wife loves having hot water on demand without running the propane heater. The probe was clean after one season. High end heaters have a dual source electric and gas with no problems. If this $90.00 unit was offered as a option on my new Lazy Dazy I would have ordered it. I rate this convenience very high.Art
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