To Don McG "Big Stretch" August 22, 2005, 12:27:20 pm Yahoo Message Number: 57129Don, I wasn't able to find your private email address, so I'm hoping for a reply here; where did you get the "Big Stretch" sealant? I found it at Ace Hardware, but only in boxes of 12, and I certainly hope I won't need that quantity!I've re-caulked the end wraps on my 2003 twice per the factory's instructions, first with LD's stuff, then with another polyurethane caulk (suggested by the factory) after the original tube of goop solidified! (Too bad it doesn't do that on the coach.) Despite "super- prepping" the surfaces, both caulk repairs have failed, and two areas on the driver's side end wrap have (again)lifted away from the body. I'd like to give the Super Stretch a try before I use SS screws.TIA.Joan
"Big Stretch" Reply #1 – August 22, 2005, 06:14:46 pm Yahoo Message Number: 57145I too have issues with the end caps where the back of the LD "bends" right there about eye level. The heat and sun have sprung this area - badly on the right side as the VMS {or whatever} tape inside tore with the top half staying with the end cap and the bottom half staying with the aluminum panel leaving a nice 1/4" gap.I laid a nice bead of {white on red paint - yuck, looks less than ideal} PR-255 caulk in this 1/4" gap and it was a thing of beauty. I now also cover the back of Ruby with a tarp {thanks to that person for the suggestion!} and all looked good. Well, we camped this weekend and it was hot and....the PR-255 tore :- ( Just a little bit but I'm back to looking for something else.I found http://www.dhcsupplies.com/aaadhesives/adhcaulkbigstretch.htmon the internet. The shipping costs as much as two tubes of Big Stretch but it's a heck of a lot less than 12 tubes at Ace Hardware.Dave stressing about sprung end caps on Ruby the red 04 RK
Re: "Big Stretch" Reply #2 – August 22, 2005, 07:23:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 57148"Dave" wrote:I found http://www.dhcsupplies.com/aaadhesives/adhcaulkbigstretch.htm The shipping costs as much as two tubes of Big Stretch but it's a heck of a lot less than 12 tubes at Ace Hardware. ---- Thanks for the reference, Dave. Gapping "end wraps" are Lazy Daze's biggest design problem, IMO; it's ridiculous that a well-maintained two-year or *newer* coach should experience this type of "separation anxiety"! The separations on the rear of my coach are also at the "about eye-level" curve, and also along the curve at the top edge. I've prepped and caulked these and other areas twice with LD's caulk and another polyurethane caulk later when the factory caulk had solidified in the tube. (The factory just said, "Use a polyurethane caulk".) I am really tempted to put in SS screws (after caulking with Super Stretch) at the gap points; we'll see!Joan
Re: "Big Stretch" Reply #3 – August 23, 2005, 11:10:47 am Yahoo Message Number: 57167Quote "Dave" wrote: The separations on the rear of my coach are also at Quotethe "about eye-level" curve, and also along the curve at the top edge. I've prepped and caulked these and other areas twice with LD's caulk and another polyurethane caulk later when the factory caulk had solidified in the tube. (The factory just said, "Use a polyurethane caulk".) I am really tempted to put in SS screws (after caulking with Super Stretch) at the gap points; we'll see!Joan Joan,Not sure I'd feel comfortable using the screws. Instead of holding things in place, the ABS plastic end caps may simply crack at the screw holes. The basic problem is that the end caps have a different heat expansion rate than the underlying aluminum. Wouldn't it be nice if LD used hydro-formed aluminum end caps?bumper
Re: "Big Stretch" Reply #4 – August 23, 2005, 12:38:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 57173"bumpersoar" wrote: QuoteNot sure I'd feel comfortable using the screws. Instead of holding things in place, the ABS plastic end caps may simply crack at the screw holes. The basic problem is that the end caps have a different heat expansion rate than the underlying aluminum. Wouldn't it be nice if LD used hydro-formed aluminum end caps? ----I'm not comfortable using them, either, for the very reason you mentioned; the cure might be worse than the disease! But, what about drilling a slightly larger-than-shank diameter screw hole through the end wrap (not into the aluminum panel)to allow for expansion? The hole would be caulked, of course, to deny water entry. (I think that Don McG may have already done something like this, which is another reason I was hoping he'd reply.) I'm going to try the Super Stretch and see if that works better at keeping the wraps tight to the siding before I head for the screw store! And, yes, it *would* be nice if the caps were the same material, i.e., formed aluminum, as the siding, *at the least* in the coach rear where virtually all of the separation problems occur! My guess is that this design/engineering change occuring anytime soon is not bloody likely!Joan
Reply to Joan T re: "Big Stretch" (kinda long) Reply #5 – August 23, 2005, 03:01:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 57184QuoteDon, I wasn't able to find your private email address, so I'm hoping for a reply here; where did you get the "Big Stretch" sealant? I found it at Ace Hardware, but only in boxes of 12, and I certainly hope I won't need that quantity!I've re-caulked the end wraps on my 2003 twice per the factory's instructions, first with LD's stuff, then with another polyurethane caulk (suggested by the factory) after the original tube of goop solidified! (Too bad it doesn't do that on the coach.) Despite "super- Quoteprepping" the surfaces, both caulk repairs have failed, and two areas on the driver's side end wrap have (again)lifted away from the body. QuoteI'd like to give the Super Stretch a try before I use SS screws. TIA. Joan Hello Joan, This post is a bit long, but I believe the extent of this subject warrants that.(The following paragraph includes data for other LD Owners.) 2003 LD, according to info from the mothership, all have the latest end cap cover attachment configuration. 2003 LD production included rear end cap covers that no longer had the overlap joggle joint between the upper and lower covers. 2003 and subsequent upper and lower end cap covers have a gap between them to allow for thermal expansion and contraction of the ABS end cap cover material. A cap strip, attached with two screws that do not go through the end cap covers, protects the gap from dirt and allows some longitudinal expansion and contraction. Unlike earlier LD, 2003 LD production included application of an `activator' for the VHB tape adhesive just before the end cap covers are installed. If this VHB `activated' tape and ABS cover application is done correctly, there is no better ABS end cap cover installation on a LD that I know of. (Possibly, if your LD is a very early 2003 unit, it might not have the VHB tape `Activator' application - but then neither does our 2001 and many others.) Finally, LD 2003 and later end cap covers fit rather tightly against the exterior aluminum sidewalls and the mothership installs edge sealant under the edges of the end cap covers only in small areas which are adjacent to the horizontal joints between the exterior sidewall panels. Essentially, that means that on 2003 and later LD, the vertical sidewall end cap covers are retained by VHB tape, small areas of edge sealant and screws in specific factory designated locations. Real early LD did not use ABS end Cap Covers, but did use formed aluminum End Cap Covers. The mothership is increasingly limited in its use of VOCs, though, and the current ABS end Cap Covers require less VOCs to install.(What is the problem you are attempting to solve?) If your end cap covers are `detaching', a real problem exists. There are three causal possibilities. One is an inherent design problem. Another is faulty workmanship or materials in the original build. The third is that some entity or unanticipated condition has been effecting partial removal of your end cap covers when you were not looking.If your end caps have failed their bond holding them to the LD structure, (either at the bond between the VHB tape or between the VHB tape and the LD structure) it is obvious that movement of the ABS end cap covers has exceeded the failure point strength of the specific VHB adhesive bond strength on your LD. Because not all 2003 and subsequent LD have experienced this failure, it follows that either your LD is different or your LD has been exposed to conditions not experienced by other LD which have not failed - or both of these conditions apply.It seems to me that it is time to collect information on other LDs which have experienced VHB tape bond failures. That should provide data the mothership must use to better analyze this problem.(O.K., but what should Joan do?) If your LD end cap VHB bond has failed, the ONLY complete restorative repair to achieve the factory original build configuration would be to carefully remove the failed end caps and scrupulously clean off all the failed VHB tape and install new tape in accord with the manufacturer`s installation methodology. In my opinion, that's a mothership job.My strong recommendation is that you contact Steve Newton at the mothership -no one else would substitute in my opinion - and after explicitly describing your end cap problem, ask Steve two questions: One, Can they do a repair of your problem that will last. And Two, Does he recognize the extent of this service problem and how it is affecting customers who do not have information about a lasting repair.(A bit about our 2001 LD) Our 2001 LD has `inactivated' VHB tape under its ABS end caps, as do many LD. Our ABS end caps had factory installed edge sealant installed under the full lengths of the end cap edges. For more than a foot above the rear end cap cover joggle joint and in a few other places, this edge sealant cracked early on in service. I contacted the mothership and after carefully removing the failed sealant, I installed the mothership recommended edge sealant. It did not last half a year before cracking. I advised the mothership and after searching for a stretchable sealant, found 'Big Stretch'. 'Big Stretch' package states not recommended for RV, so I called the manufacturer and found that this recommendation was because 'Big Stretch' was water based and would not cure when wet. With that knowledge, I applied it in dry weather and had no problem. In fact, it essentially cured the edge sealant cracking problem - though I did apply an additional screw or two where I knew that would help. `Big Stretch', however, does not have the easiest `workability' of the sealants I have used and it needs to be applied smoothly, not worked afterward to a smooth fillet. After almost five years, our LD has no significant VHB bond failures. (It is my belief that our stretchable edge sealant assists our VHB bond adhesive and working together, each prevents failure of the other.)(Is this your only End Cap Cover problem?) One other end cap problem may arise on your LD. More than a few LD have small cracks between some of the screws along the edge of their end cap covers and the edge of the end cap cover. This seems to appear first near the junction between the coach side and the front cab-over but also appears on some rear end cap strips. Left unchecked, pieces of your end cap covers may decide to part company with the rest of the installation.(Where can one buy `Big Stretch' by the tube?) Big Stretch is not stocked continuously in the home repair stores around here. The home repair store at which I first bought it no longer stocks it. Locally, a "Daly's" paint store in Bellevue, WA does sell it by the tube. The "Big Stretch" manufacturer is Shasco, 10300 E. 107th Place, Brighton, CO, www.shashco.com. Their Customer Service phone number is 1-800-289-7290, 8-5 Mtn time, M-F. They should be able to tell you what the nearest place is that you can call to find out if they have it in stock.(What if it rains all the time?) Shasco does make a non-water based sealant which they recommend as "super-electrometric". It is called `Lexel'. I have a tube but have not used any. `Big Stretch' works for me, so far.(A last few words) Do search the message database and print out messages on the end cap subjects. It will give you a better picture of what is involved in cleaning and repairing End Cap Cover edge sealants. However, there is no way (in my opinion) that laying on a bead or two of sealant will prevent an aft end cap cover from disbonding once the VHB tape bond has failed. Keep in mind that the ABS end cap covers are thin, not strong when unsupported and very expensive.Before you install screws, let's talk more about what kind, what hole sizes to use and where to locate them. Remember that when you decide to do that, you will have essentially given up on the mothership for a problem resolution.Don McG 2001 26.5 MB
Re: Reply to Joan T re: "Big Stretch" (kinda long) Reply #6 – August 23, 2005, 04:14:30 pm Yahoo Message Number: 57187mylazydaze wrote: a whole bunch of good stuff on end wrap separation... ------Hi, Don, and thanks for the informative and comprehensive reply! I refilled my printer paper tray and I'm ready to go! ;-) Thanks very much for the response; I will call Steve and get his take on what to do next.Joan
Re: Reply to Joan T re: "Big Stretch" (kinda long) Reply #7 – August 23, 2005, 05:19:42 pm Yahoo Message Number: 57192Quote mylazydaze wrote: a whole bunch of good stuff on end wrap separation... ------Hi, Don, and thanks for the informative and comprehensive reply! I refilled my printer paper tray and I'm ready to go! ;-) Thanks very much for the response; I will call Steve and get his take on what to do next.Joan I hope that the point Don made about letting the factory know about the extent of this service problem will not be overlooked by all of us. Close inspection of these seams on a regular basis is required. Visual inspection is not enough. I wait for a warm day and go around the rig and push on the caps with my finger. You can see/feel the movement. If movement is detected get out the old coin and check the area as you would for delamination in a fiberglass panel, you can hear it. Then let the factory know and follow THEIR recommendations. John '04 23.5FL
Re: Reply to Joan T re: "Big Stretch" (kinda long) Reply #8 – August 24, 2005, 03:24:34 am Yahoo Message Number: 57210Interestingly, when I was at the LD factory ordering my '05 "Yonder", I asked Ed about the end cap problem, as it was being discussed on this group at the time. Ed brushed it off, saying he hadn't heard anything about an end cap seperation problem. Didn't someone say you have to recognize a problem before you can fix it?BTW, Yonder spends most of the time in my hangar, so end caps get little exposure to heat cycles. No seperation is evident.bumper
Topic: To Don McG "Big Stretch" (Read 13 times)
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Topic: To Don McG "Big Stretch" (Read 13 times)
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