4 Season RVs January 18, 2005, 05:37:25 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49572I have a question, since the topic of trekking and winterization was mentioned. Is it possible to enclose, insulate, and "ultraheat" the outside tanks of an LD? If you can do this, is it enough to avoid the need for winterization (meaning you can still use the tanks normally, at least while boondocking, where the temperatures dip below freezing)? I've read that some RVs have the fresh water system inside the coach, so as long as the inside of the coach is kept above freezing, the fresh water can be used even in below zero conditions (and you just keep plenty of RV anti-freeze in the gray and black water tanks?). That seems like a huge advantage. I do understand that any RV's tanks will freeze if unused or stored in below freezing weather, and I'm not saying I want to move to Canada for the winter or anything, but I don't want to have to snowbird all winter either if there's a good workaround. I have read with interest the posts on this forum indicating that the spray insulation offered by Lazy Daze is only minimally protective and has the drawback of making the tanks less accessible for maintenance or repair. Am I understanding the issues correctly? I've read everything I can find about "winterization" and it sounds like it makes most RVs unusable for all practical purposes. Thanks for your advice.Livia
Re: 4 Season RVs Reply #1 – January 18, 2005, 06:35:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49574Livia:See doubleu doubleu doubleu dot ultraheat dot com for tank and pipe heaters for black and gray tanks and piping. The Lazy Daze fresh water tank is inside the coach, so as long as you keep the coach heated, there is no concern about the fresh water system.Hope this helpsGus Weber
Re: 4 Season RVs Reply #2 – January 19, 2005, 06:27:47 am Yahoo Message Number: 49602Thank you! That helps a lot!the coach heated, there is no concern about the fresh water system.>>
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] 4 Season RVs Reply #3 – January 20, 2005, 07:06:57 am Yahoo Message Number: 49636Yes you can heat with a 12v dc/120v ac heating pad and insulation and it does make the L D usable year around with due diligence ( constant electric power) inside heat or furnace on and a judicious use of antifreeze in the tank.teladora teladora@...> wrote: I have a question, since the topic of trekking and winterization was mentioned. Is it possible to enclose, insulate, and "ultraheat" the outside tanks of an LD? If you can do this, is it enough to avoid the need for winterization (meaning you can still use the tanks normally, at least while boondocking, where the temperatures dip below freezing)? I've read that some RVs have the fresh water system inside the coach, so as long as the inside of the coach is kept above freezing, the fresh water can be used even in below zero conditions (and you just keep plenty of RV anti-freeze in the gray and black water tanks?). That seems like a huge advantage. I do understand that any RV's tanks will freeze if unused or stored in below freezing weather, and I'm not saying I want to move to Canada for the winter or anything, but I don't want to have to snowbird all winter either if there's a good workaround. I have read with interest the posts on this forum indicating that the spray insulation offered by Lazy Daze is only minimally protective and has the drawback of making the tanks less accessible for maintenance or repair. Am I understanding the issues correctly? I've read everything I can find about "winterization" and it sounds like it makes most RVs unusable for all practical purposes. Thanks for your advice.Livia Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] 4 Season RVs Reply #4 – January 20, 2005, 08:55:51 am Yahoo Message Number: 49643I never heard of a 12v heating pad. Where would I find one? Brand name available?My water lines are quickly and easily blown out from the city fill except for the water pump and its adjacent low lying hoses. A heating pad around the pump would be a neat trick, since I have two solar panels. (I also put a cup of anti-freeze
Re: Four season RVs Reply #5 – January 20, 2005, 09:16:22 am Yahoo Message Number: 49648"I never heard of a 12v heating pad." Easy answer for any "where to buy" question, including this one: go to Froogle and search on '12v heating pad'. I turned up dozens of products this way.Andy Baird
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] 4 Season RVs Reply #6 – January 20, 2005, 09:27:54 am Yahoo Message Number: 49649"Is it possible to enclose, insulate, and "ultraheat" the outside tanks of an LD? If you can do this, is it enough to avoid the need for winterization (meaning you can still use the tanks normally, at least while boondocking,"LiviaYes, you can install heaters and insulation on your holding tanks. The `Ultra-heat' heaters glue onto the outside of the tank(s). The tanks can be then be covered with insulation. You can have the tanks sprayed with polyurethane insulation, the type LD uses, or use a rigid foam board. Isocyanate foam insulation board is available in various thicknesses at your local home center. It can be attached with polyurethane glue or a construction adhesive such as "Hard as nails". The corners can be finished and sealed using aluminum mending tape, also available at the home center. If you decide to go this route, make sure to install heaters and insulation on the ABS pipes that run from the holding tanks to the dump valves(s). For short-term trips, letting your holding tanks freeze normally does not seem to harm them. Ours have been frozen several times. I am more worried about freezing the 1 ½" and 3" ABS pipes lines that run from the holding tanks to the dump valve. I have installed two new dump valves, located immediately at the outlet of each tank. Leaving them closed in cold weather prevents liquid from entering the lines, eliminating possible broken lines due to freezing. I just open each valve before dumping and then close them immediately after dumping. If you install heaters, how are you planning on powering them? Do you plan on having hookups or would you run the generator (or engine) several hours a day? Unfortunately, the LD's forced air heater does not help to keep the holding tanks from freezing. Keeping the interior temperature above freezing usually prevents the fresh water system from freezing. Opening the interior cabinet doors helps spread the available heat to the various plumbing runs.Larry
Re: Four season RVs Reply #7 – January 20, 2005, 09:31:26 am Yahoo Message Number: 49650Thanks, I've already done that (I use Copernic Pro, which is extremely fast and searches 10 search engines simultaneously). Found a pet heating pad that runs on 1.25 amps/15 watts. It only has a 5 foot cord but I can find an extension somewhere.I'm still interested
Re: Four season RVs Reply #8 – January 20, 2005, 10:33:22 am Yahoo Message Number: 49655"I've already done that (I use Copernic Pro, which is extremely fast and searches 10 search engines simultaneously). Found a pet heating pad that runs on 1.25 amps/15 watts. It only has a 5 foot cord but I can find an extension somewhere." The pet warmer that Copernic found for you is great for pets (my cat is absolutely in love with hers!), but would probably be unsuitable for tank heating because it isn't built to withstand moisture. Try the search again, using Froogle as I suggested. You'll get more useful results (and I stress the word "useful")--including weatherpoof rubber- encapsulated pads that are ideal for what you have in mind. Metasearch tools like Copernic Pro are fine if you want the largest possible *number* of results, but less useful if you want the most *relevant* results. In particular, Froogle excels when you're looking for products, because it is specifically optimized to find and deliver exactly the buying information you want--including ranking hits by price, if you like--with virtually zero "noise" (e.g., references in blogs) and extraneous information. Give Froogle a try; I think you'll find it very useful. Copernic Pro is good for some things, but no one search tool suits all needs, and when it comes to results, quantity is not necessarily better than quality.Andy
Re: Four season RVs Reply #9 – January 20, 2005, 12:28:39 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49659I will try Froogle as you suggest. thanks.To clarify what I was attempting to say: I'll use the DC heating pad to heat ONLY the small water pump which is INSIDE the RV, under the sink. The pump and its adjacent tubing are the only water-retaining points after I air-pressure-blow the water distribution system from the city water input. I'll only use the heating pad overnight when the temp is predicted to stay below 32 for several hours. I live
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] 4 Season RVs Reply #10 – January 20, 2005, 12:38:48 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49660Thank you so much! That makes a lot of sense and clears up my fog on the issue. But, LOL, I'm thinking...--use of expression "due diligence" with a definition --combined with use of word "judicious" Do I detect legal training? (just got through law school, and I had to write a 22- page paper about due diligence, so maybe I'm a little sensitive to these things! hahaha)QuoteYes you can heat with a 12v dc/120v ac heating pad and insulation and it does make the L QuoteD usable year around with due diligence ( constant electric power) inside heat or furnace on and a judicious use of antifreeze in the tank.
Re: Four season RVs Reply #11 – January 20, 2005, 12:50:25 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49662"To clarify what I was attempting to say: I'll use the DC heating pad to heat ONLY the small water pump which is INSIDE the RV, under the sink." I'm sorry, Bob--I misunderstood, and thought you were talking about tank heaters. Yes, the model PB18 12VDC "Pet Warmer" pad might actually be usable for heating the pump...you could sort of wrap it around the whole assembly. Look at it this way: even if that use proves impractical, if you travel with a pet you have a guaranteed second use for it, so you can't go wrong! ;-) As I said, my cat loves hers, even though we haven't been out in Gertie with it yet. I currently power it with an AC adapter, and I swear the only time she leaves the chair that pad is sitting on is to eat and use the litter pan...and at night when I turn it off and she gets into bed with me! ;-)Andy Baird
Re: Four season RVs Reply #12 – January 20, 2005, 01:00:24 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49665Duh! I should have also mentioned a much cheaper and simpler trick that I've often seen recommended by experienced cold-weather campers: put a small lightbulb (e.g., a bare tail-light bulb) in the compartment with the pump. Since incandescent lamps are 98% efficient at turning electricity into heat, this is by far the cheapest way of implementing a compact, low-wattage pump heater...at a fraction of the cost of a 12V heating pad. To really do it up right, drill a 3/8" hole in the cabinet wall next to where you mount the bulb, and put a piece of colored glass or plastic (e.g., an old pilot-light jewel) over the hole...so you'll be reminded when the lamp/heater is on. :-)Andy Baird
Re: Four season RVs Reply #13 – January 20, 2005, 01:00:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49666Quote I will try Froogle as you suggest. thanks.To clarify what I was attempting to say: I'll use the DC heating pad to heat ONLY the small water pump which is INSIDE the RV, under the sink. The pump and its adjacent tubing are the only water-retaining points after I air-pressure-blow the water distribution system from the city water input. Bob,You might consider installing a blow-out quick connect right after the pump (see "air-blow out . . ." in the Yonder Album in Photos). This has the advantage of blowing out more of the lines. Then you can remove the air hose and use the same opening to purge the water pump by turning on briefly as recommended by LD.bumper
Re: Four season RVs Reply #14 – January 20, 2005, 01:00:54 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49667For several years we've used a small round red plastic "Snugglesafe" (it's an inch-thick, eight-inch-diamter disk) that we heat
Re: Four season RVs Reply #16 – January 20, 2005, 01:08:35 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49672I've been thinking of that. I'll re-visit it. Your bare bulb suggestion is the answer to the heat-the-pump problem.
Re: Four season RVs Reply #17 – January 20, 2005, 01:11:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49673Quote For several years we've used a small round red plastic "Snugglesafe" Quote(it's an inch-thick, eight-inch-diamter disk) that we heat in the microwave for 5 minutes twice a day. It retains its heat for up to 12 hours. It goes under the pad/blanket/whatever in the cat's sleeping quarters. Our cat loves it, especially n chiully nights. We got it either in Petsmart or somewhere online. http://www.snugglesafe.co.uk RED ALERT . . . RED ALERT!!DO NOT, under any circumstances, make the mistake of attempting to warm the cat up in the microwave!all the best,bumper
Re: Four season RVs Reply #18 – January 20, 2005, 01:19:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49676Quote I've been thinking of that. I'll re-visit it.Your bare bulb suggestion is the answer to the heat-the-pump problem.Lazy Daze suggests leaving a cupboard door adjar in those models that have inside access to the pump.I was thinking of another approach, just haven't gotten to it yet. Install a 3/4 or 1" PVC pipe (sprinkler or plastic flex conduit) between a heater duct and the area of the pump. Oh, and with a plastic turn off valve. That way their would be a small amount of warm air to keep the pump toasty and maybe with an electricity savings over using a tail light bulb.With a suitable one-way check valve, this idea might even be employed to keep the holding tanks above freezing.Bottom line is it's way more effecient to heat with gas than it is with battery power.If I was designing a holding tank heater from scratch, I'd think about using a small propane fired unit . . . wouldn't take much more flame than a pilot light.all the best,bumper
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Four season RVs Reply #19 – January 20, 2005, 01:56:16 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49683At 06:50 PM 1/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:QuoteI currently power it with an AC adapter, and I swear the only time she leaves the chair that pad is sitting on is to eat and use the litter pan...and at night when I turn it off and she gets into bed with me! This is actually a great tip for pet lovers who'd like to keep their animals off the nice furniture. We used to drape towels over the good stuff because our cats insisted on napping in our best seats when the sun came around the right way. But with one of these, they would have a 24-hour "heat spot" to call their own. Very clever!Sonsie
Re: Four season RVs Reply #20 – January 20, 2005, 02:18:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49686"For several years we've used a small round red plastic 'Snugglesafe' (it's an inch-thick, eight-inch-diamter disk) that we heat in the microwave for 5 minutes twice a day." Neat gadget, but not well suited to dry-camping. Even if your inverter can power your microwave oven, a resistance heater like an incandescent bulb uses much less juice to make the same amount of heat. (Microwave ovens are typically only about 60-65% efficient at converting electricity to heat, while lightbulbs are 95-98% efficient heaters.) On the other hand, if you do have hookups, the SnuggleSafe is very convenient, in that you can put it anywhere without having to worry about finding a place to plug it in--unlike a warming pad. The US$30 price is a bit high considering what you're getting (I'm guessing the cost to manufacture is probably a buck or two at most), but this might be a good thing to have around. An afterthought--has anybody tried heating up a "Blue Ice"-type gel-filled container in a microwave oven? Of course you'd want to do it at reduced power and keep the times very short, but...it's possible that it would serve the same heat-storing purpose as the SnuggleSafe at a fraction of the cost. Just a thought, if anybody's in the mood for a science experiment. ;-)Andy Baird
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] 4 Season RVs Reply #21 – January 20, 2005, 04:47:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49692"My water lines are quickly and easily blown out from the city fill except for the water pump and its adjacent low lying hoses. A heating pad around the pump would be a neat trick, since I have two solar panels. (I also put a cup of anti-freeze in every trap and a half gallon in the waste tanks and drain the hot water tank.)"Bobbumpers suggestion to add a tee and blowout, located at the pump's outlet, is a commonly used practice and it enables you to easily use the Factory's preferred method of winterizing. Why heat if there is no need?The Factory also recommends blowing water out of the traps with compressed air, eliminating the need for anti-freeze. Anti-freeze is not necessary for the holding tanks. Drain the tanks completely and leave the drain valves slightly openLarry
Re: controlling pet location Reply #22 – January 20, 2005, 07:29:51 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49703"This is actually a great tip for pet lovers who'd like to keep their animals off the nice furniture." You're exactly right. My cat is too well behaved in he old age (she's 16) to damage the furniture, but she used to sleep on my bed while was working at the computer, and then periodically she'd get lonely and meow for attention, and I'd interrupt what I was doing to go pet her for a few minutes. I have a second chair right next to my computer chair, but for some reason she didn't like to sleep on it. So I put the Pet Warmer pad on the second chair...and from the minute I set her on it three weeks ago, she has spent 95% of her time there except when sleeping with me. Now I can reach over and stroke her at any time, so she doesn't get lonely (and neither do I!)...we're both happy as can be. In short, the Pet Warmer pad provides a reliable means of instant behavior modification. ;-)Andy Baird
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] 4 Season RVs Reply #23 – January 20, 2005, 10:15:11 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49708See msg 45669 and do a Google search for tank heaters.bobsiegely bobsiegel@...> wrote: I never heard of a 12v heating pad. Where would I find one? Brand name available?My water lines are quickly and easily blown out from the city fill except for the water pump and its adjacent low lying hoses. A heating pad around the pump would be a neat trick, since I have two solar panels. (I also put a cup of anti-freeze
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