Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? February 20, 2003, 07:34:50 am Yahoo Message Number: 19142I was wondering what most of you experienced LD owners use for leveling. There is not much exterior storage space in our 1995 23.5 ft LD, so we wonder what works best for storage space, and flexibility in leveling--wood ramps, or the 8 x 8 in. plastic stacking blocks. Or is there something else. It seems that even on level ground, we need about 3 inches of lift under the driver's front wheel.During the last rain, our wood pieces got muddy while in use, so we added them to the fire pit, as we couldn't clean them up in the driving rain or store them all muddy. So we are in the market for new levelers.We appreciate any comments.Cindy
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #1 – February 20, 2003, 09:04:51 am Yahoo Message Number: 19144Cindy, Plastic blocks are nice in that they are lightweight and stack/store in very little space but some aren't good for the tires as they don't support the entire footprint and that causes stress on the portion that is supported often causing them to fail either from a blowout or tread separation. They also are very prone to breaking and ALL RV stores carry spares in the customer service counter area for replacement, but that doesn't help if they break while camping and you aren't near the store you purchased from! I had plastic blocks and had several break before deciding wood was the best choice for blocks/ramps. Luckily CW is very good about replacing them "no questions asked"! You just go to the customer service counter and as soon as they see them they may ask "how many?" as they take the spare box out to replace them. They no longer sell Lynx, which don't support tires well, there but carry EZ Ramp type that have better support for the tires but break easier than the Lynx. Most of the plastic ramps/blocks don't really properly support motor home tires being either too narrow or too small of a support area in length or both.Wood blocks and ramps won't break but are heavier and can take up more space. Larry (lw5315us) has a good wood block/ramp system for smaller spaces and just posted a reply to Andy Baird who just had several plastic blocks break in cold weather how he made his so they are separate pieces that can interlock so they don't slide or move when climbing them. He doesn't mention if they are painted or not but by painting them or using polyurethane they will be easier to clean and won't absorb water. Make sure you use at least 2x8 or something wider than 7" and have at least a 7x7 area for the tire so they support the entire footprint of the tires or you can have the same problems as many plastic types have with causing "impact breaks" in the tire from over stressing the area that is supported and actually supporting the weight. Also make sure all tires on the corner(s) needing to be raised are fully supported! That typically means you need to plan to raise and support 4 tires at times to get level. I went to wood ramps and they actually took up very little additional space overall, however they may be more difficult to get into or store in a smaller rig than when broken down into individual pieces as Larry has done with his. I now have Big Foot levelers but still carry the ramps since many CGs require the tires not be off the ground without being supported for safety reasons. Levelers especially the "kickdown" types have been known to fail and fold in use if the RV rolls forward for some reason or otherwise moves like in windy weather. The straight types can also roll if not chocked or blocked when the rear tires are not contacting the ground so the emergency brake holds it in position, anytime you use jacks the wheeels should be chocked to prevent that anyway. They'll also come in handy if I need additional height to get level especially in the front since those have less lift than the rear jacks.Mike
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #2 – February 20, 2003, 09:21:57 am Yahoo Message Number: 19145Cindy,We use the plastic one-piece ramps that we bought when we picked up the LD. We are quite happy with them, easy to use, and take up about 1/4 of a compartment on our 26.5'. They do have lots of places that dirt/water/mud can get
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #3 – February 20, 2003, 10:38:40 am Yahoo Message Number: 19151QuoteI was wondering what most of you experienced LD owners use for leveling. There is not much exterior storage space in our 1995 23.5Quoteft LD, so we wonder what works best for storage space, and flexibility in leveling--wood ramps, or the 8 x 8 in. plastic stacking blocks. Or is there something else. It seems that even on level ground, we need about 3 inches of lift under the driver's front wheel.During the last rain, our wood pieces got muddy while in use, so we added them to the fire pit, as we couldn't clean them up in the driving rain or store them all muddy. So we are in the market for new levelers. I have no qualms about storing our blocks muddy, sopping wet, or in whatever condition they emerge from the tires. Such is a fact of life with any manual levelling system. What bothers me is dumping the sewage tank in a sewer port in a freezing deluge in a flooded field - but it helps putting other minor miseries in perspective. Needing to add three inches to one corner on a flat lot means either you have a serious suspension problem, or you are doing it wrong. The easy way to analyse leveling needs is to consider what is needed to level front to rear, then side to side. For instance, if you are down in the front, raise each front wheel the same amount until you are level front to back - say two blocks. Then if you are down on the driver's side, ADD equal blocks front and rear driver's side until level - say one block. You should now have two blocks under the right front tire, three under the left, and one under each left rear tire. Once you done it a few seasons, you should be able drive into a spot, check the level, throw the appropriate blocks down and drive up - done.For blocks, I have some I made of redwood 2X6 planks, two comprised of staged three thicknesses, and the rest a single thickness. That has worked for any site it was reasonable to try levelling. Note when siting that it takes less effort and fewer blocks to raise the front than the back - the view may or not cooperate with those logistics.Steve
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #4 – February 20, 2003, 11:10:04 am Yahoo Message Number: 19153"Larry (lw5315us) has a good wood block/ramp system for smaller spaces and just posted a reply to Andy Baird who just had several plastic blocks break in cold weather how he made his so they are separate pieces that can interlock so they don't slide or move when climbing them. He doesn't mention if they are painted painted or not but by painting them or using polyurethane they will be easier to clean and won't absorb water"MikeAll my leveling blocks are either primed and painted or coated with either marine epoxy or exterior polyurethane. It does make them more durable and easier to clean. I cannot imagine throwing them out because they are too muddy. If cleaning them at the campsite is not an option, just do it at home. The newer LDs have plastic storage compartments that can withstand mud and water, without damage. Just store them dirty and clean them up at home. A hose and wet-and-dry vacuum makes the job a snap.I find my new LD to be much easier to level. It sits much closer to level to begin with. The old LD's Chevy chassis always sat low in the front, even with heavier front springs. The newer refrigerators can tolerate being slightly off level. On our old LD, I would always try to get it to be as close to perfectly level as possible.Larry
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #5 – February 20, 2003, 01:29:01 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19163Larry,Would it be possible for you to post some pictures of your interlocking blocks on this site or your now famous personal enhancements site? I am interested in visualizing how you made them to interlock.thx, Mike
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #6 – February 20, 2003, 02:16:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19167QuoteLarry,Would it be possible for you to post some pictures of your interlocking blocks on this site or your now famous personal enhancements site? I am interested in visualizing how you made them to interlock.thx, Mike I am not Larry, but thought you might want to consider another leveling alternative to wood. http://www.fiamma.it/usa/prod_usa/usaframeproduct.htmlI did some research a few months ago and found this source. When we purchased our 2001 30IB about two years ago, I bought the Level Upp ramps from LD and have been using them along with some 2x10 wood blocks. While I have been satisfied, I liked these ramps from Fiamma because they are wider..7"...and higher as well as having an optional chock available for safety. I haven't ordered them yet, but am getting ready to do so.Tom
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #7 – February 20, 2003, 02:24:07 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19169"Would it be possible for you to post some pictures of your interlocking blocks"MikeI will try this weekend if the wife and job (no OT...please) allow the time.I need to get back to working on the MH. I have half the interior opened up. I'm wiring in the inverter (with an automatic transfer switch), a battery capacity gauge (Link 10), antenna coax and some other stuff on the driver's side. It is a big job but hopefully I need to do this only onceLarry
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #8 – February 20, 2003, 02:24:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19170I liked these ramps from FiammaQuotebecause they are wider..7"...and higher as well as having an optional chock available for safety. I haven't ordered them yet, but am getting ready to do so.Tom Once you use them, let us know how they work. They sure look interesting. Laurie
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ?- Level Up Reply #9 – February 20, 2003, 02:34:25 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19174Tom If and when you get the "Level Up" blocks, give them the 'Andy Baird' test and freeze them. See if they stay flexible and crack resistant. This seems to be the downfall of plastic. The same shape can be made of 2"X8"s with a circular saw and some nails or screws, for just a few dollars.Larry
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ?- Level Up Reply #10 – February 20, 2003, 03:43:40 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19181"If and when you get the 'Level Up' blocks, give them the 'Andy Baird' test and freeze them. See if they stay flexible and crack resistant." LOL! So this is my morsel of fame--I get to have a leveling block torture test named after me! ;-) I'm guessing from the looks of them that the Level Up ramps will do fairly well in cold weather, mainly because they are all in one piece. I think what caused some of my leveling blocks to fracture was not just cold, but the fact that they were on a soft surface (packed snow) and were apt to shift and buckle; and that that I probably backed over them with the wheel only partway on--so the weight was way off center, making them even more likely to shift. This ouldn't happen with ramps. "The same shape can be made of 2"X8"s with a circular saw and some nails or screws, for just a few dollars." That's true, but the Level Up ramps weigh only 3.5 pounds apiece, whereas wooden ramps in those dimensions (20" x 7" x 5") would probably weigh double or triple that. That may not seem like a big deal, and for some it may not be..but when you're deploying them after a long day of driving, you really don't want to struggle with heavy ramps. I'll have to take a look at my storage bay dimensions (that compartment contains my second set of house batteries, so space is a little restricted)...but I might just give these a try. They certainly would be a lot easier to use than handfuls of blocks. Thanks for the tip, Tom!Andy Baird :-)
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #11 – February 20, 2003, 04:23:18 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19183Tom, I looked at these Fiamma levelers and the problem I see with them is they only support part of the length of the tire fooprint and not the whole footprint. If you look at the specs you can see they are only 20.5" long with 3 steps and part of that length is the angles up. The part that actually supports the footprint is only 4" long so alot of it is not supported. The LT225/75R16 tires they have a 7x7" footprint so part of that isn't properly supported with these or most other plastic ramps/blocks.Fiamma did have a different type that were a more solid plastic in both standard and magnum sizes that were a better straight ramp and wide enough for the tires on motor homes. The magnums at 7-7/8" wide and had a max height of 3.5" with chocks available for them also and handled 8800lbs. I'm not sure if they still have them available, they were P/N: 97901-015 and cost about $29 a pair at RV stores. CW also has some nice cast aluminum ramps that give a max height ov 4.5" but they were real expensive at about $80ea. They have a chock that grips into the serrated surface but are only 5.5" wide leaving 1.5" not supported. That doesn't sound like much but it can be enough to damage the tires and cause a tread separation. They also have the EZ Jack aluminum type but they are still 1" too narrow and cost almost $50ea. The only thing I found that works well and supports the tires without the addition of plywood on top of them to support the full tire footprint is solid wood ramps made with at least by 8 stock. Maybe someone will come out with some cast aluminum ones that are reasonably priced and wide enough for motor home and all other RV tires. I'm sure with good advertising they could sell a bunch of them especially if they point out all the tread separation and blowout problems that have plagued RVers for years and the link to improper leveling products and techniques that may be one of the major contributors of many of them.Mike
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #12 – February 20, 2003, 05:23:20 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19185Mike, You got my gears turning. I'm a Mech. Designer and designing a cast aluminum ramp would be a breeze. I could have a 3D CAD model in a matter of hours and run the analysis in a few more. What lift increments do you think would be good. My first guess from seeing other designs would be 1.5" increaments, with a total lift of 4.5". How does that sound?-VictorQuoteMaybe someone will come out with some cast aluminum ones that are reasonably priced and wide enough for motor home and all other RV tires. I'm sure with good advertising they could sell a bunch of them
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #13 – February 20, 2003, 06:55:20 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19186Victor, I think the 1.5" increments would work fine since that's about what a 2x8 actually is on the 2" side after they sand it smooth. The reason I feel you need 2x8 is because they sand off about .25" from each side of a rough sawn board to make them smooth leaving 1.5x7.5 as the actual size of the 2x8. The ramps I made are 30" long on the bottom with a 45-degree cut and each level is 10" shorter again with 45- degree cuts. This gives about a 7.5-8" top length for the tire to sit firmly flat supporting the entire footprint with a bit to spare. They are probably just a bit taller than 4.5" but that would work fine. Mine are screwed together with galvanized deck screws but I also like Larry's idea and had actually thought about doing something similar to that myself before. I'm the creative type that can visualize what they would look like without actually seeing them. That design allows the pieces to be taken out individually so you don't need to lift as much weight all the time and can make them easier to store also. They would be much stronger than any plastic types although the plastic ones would be much less weight. That's why I like the idea of cast aluminum since it's also lightweight but strong. A composite type would also be lightweight and stronger than plastic.Designing the ramps should be very easy and the cost to mfg I would expect to be quite cheap so it should leave a decent profit margin even at price lower than those on the market now. Let's face it they probably don't cost more than about 15-20% of the retail price (referring to the aluminum types, plastic would be a far less percentage of retail) so even giving the distribution and retail chain a good profit it should result in a nice profit for the mfg. I really don't know what the current aluminum prices are though or what a composite type would cost. Mfg direct Internet sales could be very profitable! By the way you had given your email address once being at maxtor.com, is that the Maxtor computer hard drive company? Is that where you work?Mike
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ?-Other ideas Reply #14 – February 20, 2003, 07:09:54 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19188Mike and VictorI just posted photos of my various leveling blocks. In designing aluminum blocks, how about using continuous ramps instead of stepped blocks. I prefer these since they allow the exact amount of leveling desired, instead of 1 ½" increments. I like the idea of aluminum blocks instead of plastic. The aluminum is going to be similar to plastic in cost and cheaper than decent composite materials.Larry
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #15 – February 20, 2003, 08:30:20 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19191QuoteI am not Larry, but thought you might want to consider another leveling alternative to wood. http://www.fiamma.it/usa/prod_usa/usaframeproduct.htmlI did some research a few months ago and found this source. When we purchased our 2001 30IB about two years ago, I bought the Level Upp ramps from LD and have been using them along with some 2x10 wood blocks. While I have been satisfied, I liked these ramps from Fiamma because they are wider..7"...and higher as well as having an optional chock available for safety. I haven't ordered them yet, but am getting ready to do so.Tom Tom:For 30 years I used wooden blocks to level - made them myself. But gradually the ends split and sooner or later the upper block split. Besides, they were heavy and a pain to get back out. Hence, when I got the Lazy Daze I saw and bought the level-up blocks, and have been recommendating them ever since. Then this Christmas, someone recommended the Fiamma ones. I ordered a set and could not be happier. They are wider and higher than the Level-UP, and have a lip on the end so it is not so easy to srive off the block when trying to level. I have to admit I have used them on only one trip of a week's duration, but in maybe four or five levellings I was glad to have them. They are quite sturdy (thick) plastic and I look forward to using them for a long time.By the way, I use that Fiamma site quite often. Your (recent) Lazy Daze awnings are actually the Fiamma F45 but sold by A&E (and with their name on it). I even considered getting the 12V motor operated end cap so I wouldn't have to make the 70 turns to extend or retract the awning, but in discussing it with Steve Newton, he could not find an easy way to run the required wiring.Gus Weber
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ?-Other ideas Reply #16 – February 20, 2003, 10:26:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19197Larry,Thank you very much for posting your leveler design. They look great, and I now see how you lock them together with the nails. A couple of questions: When you need to level the rear, did you make enough levelers to drive both inner and outer tires up on ramps, or do you just use one tire? How many sets of levelers does one need to take care of all leveling situations?thanks again,Mike
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ?-Other ideas Reply #17 – February 21, 2003, 06:49:58 am Yahoo Message Number: 19200"A couple of questions: When you need to level the rear, did you make enough levelers to drive both inner and outer tires up on ramps, or do you just use one tire? How many sets of levelers does one need to take care of all leveling situations?"Mike Always support both tires when leveling the rear. Only supporting one will overload it, possibly leading to its failure. Don't do it.Three sets have been enough in the past but when I made the individual blocks, I added an extra set. This may be overkill. You can always delete a set in the future.Larry
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ?-Other ideas Reply #18 – February 21, 2003, 10:16:04 am Yahoo Message Number: 19204Larry, I really like the idea of aluminum also but I don't really like the high cost of those on the market and the fact they are all too narrow in my opinion based on what tire companies recommend being safe and avoiding tire problems. I would pay more for them than plastic and think many other RVers would as well but the price of the better of the two available is a bit steep. Of the two I like the Level It Chock design the best. Both of the other aluminum ramps I mentioned are also continuous styles with differences in the shape. I know some people prefer that style to stepped ramps and others like the stepped style. I suppose you could design both but there could be a problem using that same type of continuous design and that would need to be checked out before someone marketed them. You could make the continuous style different enough besides just in width to make them an original design though. Nobody is making the stepped style aluminum though so that would be truly original. I think they should be made wide enough for any type of motor home tire and think 8-9" width is about what would be needed. I had a feeling that a good composite type would be more expensive to make but they too would be strong. I haven't kept up on aluminum or other metals pricing so I wasn't sure about cost there either.Mike
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #19 – February 21, 2003, 02:50:31 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19213Mike,Thanks for the input. In the next week or so I will play with different configuration. This may never go anywhere, but it's fun to design low-tech things like this.I also thought of something besides aluminum, the right kind of plastic designed right should perform very well. Glass reinforced nylon comes to mind. The biggest problem is getting tools made. Using aluminum or plastic, the tools will run around $30k. Material cost for aluminum are about 1/4 of cent per gram.Yes, I work at Maxtor, the disk drive company.-Victor
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #20 – February 21, 2003, 04:24:47 pm Yahoo Message Number: 19215Victor, Here is another design you may want to look at for ideas.Camper's Choice carries a plastic leveler (P/N; M119) if it weren't for the width being too narrow at 5.75" for the tires would probably be a good ramp. Now the 1.25" doesn't sound like much of the tire not supported to cause problems but most tire mfgs claim it is! They tell you not to have any portion of the tire footprint unsupported or it can cause "impact breaks" that lead to tread separations. They warn that even if the tire is off the side of a leveling block or ramp by just a little that is enough to damage the tire.These are very similar to the Fiamma Level System standard ramps I mentioned in a previous post except they support 25,000lbs. They appear to have solid plastic bottoms not hollow in areas or the engineered design of many other plastic products like the newer Fiamma leveling ramps and that would be better for a couple reasons. 1) They would have more bottom surface area to spread the weight over so they won't sink into softer ground. This is something most plastic leveling products do unless you put plywood under them or are on a hard surface. 2) They would be far less prone to breaking even when very cold. Unfortunately they aren't as wide as the Fiamma Level System magnum ramps.The solid plastic would make them a little heavier.As for actually mfg any design from aluminum or plastic that could just be done with a contract mfg and wouldn't incur much expense in the way of start-up costs. There are lots of other RV products that could be improved on and done that way as well. Just a thought!Mike
Re: Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #21 – February 23, 2003, 10:57:55 am Yahoo Message Number: 19247Quote Then this Christmas, someone recommended the Fiamma ones. I ordered a Quoteset and could not be happier. They are wider and higher than the Level-UP, and have a lip on the end so it is not so easy to srive off the block when trying to level. I have to admit I have used them on only one trip of a week's duration, but in maybe four or five levellings I was glad to have them. They are quite sturdy (thick) plastic and I look forward to using them for a long time. Gus, Thanks for the positive comments. I will be ordering them...they are much lighter than the wood blocks.Tom
Levelers-Plastic, wood, or ? Reply #22 – February 20, 2003, 11:13:50 am Yahoo Message Number: 19154I made wood levelers to insure a good foot print for the tires - I made 4 of them - they're heavy and take up some room but I know they won't break and do a perfect job - they go to a height of 3 inches. I can stack them in an outside storage space of my 1991 22 ft, so they take up a width of about 22 inches and 3 inches height. Sonia
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