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Sometimes it Happens!
Yahoo Message Number: 18953
Sometimes you get a winter trip less than ideal.  Last weekend we decided to go from our home in the Western Slope of Colorado down to Eastern New Mexico to visit my grandson.  Readers of this board know I have always said not to be afraid of winter camping, and we looked forward to it.
 A good friend and neighbor asked us if we would mind dropping her off at her sisters, which was on the way.  Her sister offered to let us spend the night parked at their ranch and promised an electrical hookup.  With the heater built in the air conditioner and a "cube" heater we have previously camped at near zero temperatures.
 But when we got there, the electrical connection was a very long cord (over 100 feet) and when I turned on the air conditioner heater, the voltage dropped to less than 100 volts.  No good, that would burn out a heater. So with a full tank of propane (old 10 gallon tank) I elected to use the furnace.  I set the temperature at 50 degrees, but forgot we were carrying the fish with us (the neighbor we had taken was the one who normally takes care of our fish on trips).
 Well, the furnace worked OK, running about half the time.  This took 1/3 of the propane, but almost killed the fish.  Morning was a frantic time of holding the fish for a few moments to warm them while adding some hot water to their bowl.  But it worked out, they managed to survive.

But that day the blower motor in the cab suddenly stopped working! The only way to heat the cab was to run the generator on the road and rely on the air conditioner heater.
 Now I had prepared the sewage tanks with 1/2 gallon of RV antifreeze, which had always worked to prevent freezing in the past.  Not this time; when I went to dump both dump fittings were frozen solid - this part of the country was having their worst cold all winter.  I added a half box of table salt to each and hoped.
 The second night was in an RV park with good power and we stayed warm as toast.  Lady luck was with us, for the next day the temperature got above freezing and with that (above freezing) air blowing past the dump pipes, they defrosted and we were able to dump that night.  So far, so good, only the blower motor to take care of, (and having to stop too often for gas because of the running generator).

We had brought a new video (Walt Disney's Davy Crokett) to keep our grandson happy.  But as soon as I put it in the TV/VCR, it swallowed it, licked its lips, and jammed!  We'll leave it there, for my wife and I only have videos for the boy.
 But that last day home, the GPS suddenly died.  Lady Luck was with us, for when I got home I removed the batteries to reset everything, and it came back OK.  The blower motor gets looked at next Monday.
 In below freezing temperatures, henceforth I will use salt to keep the sewage tanks from freezing.  But the old Lazy Daze can still take the cold weather as long as everything works.
 Oh, yes, the first day was through a bit of snow and road department grit, and the newly waxed rig got more dirty than it had ever been.  I managed to get it washed yesterday, here in the balmy (40 degree) temperatures of home base.
 The lesson?  Lazy Daze is still good in near zero cold, but use salt in the sewage tanks, and hope everything works.

Happy Winter Tails

Gus Weber
Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18956
Gus, Sorry to hear of all your problems on this last trip. Sometimes it seems when things start going wrong on a trip more things just continue to go wrong. That's especially true with cold weather camping.
 I'm always leery when someone I don't really know that well tells me they can give me an electric hook-up. Often unless they have a RV and have a special electrical circuit for it about the only thing you can safely run is lights and the TV/VCR. Even sometimes when people do have a RV the circuit they have for it isn't really dedicated to it and may not be a 30amp one.
 It's a shame the VCR ate your new tape! That's one something that can always happen and something that often gets overlooked or neglected for cleaning and preventative maintenance even on home units until something like that happens. I hope you can get it salvaged without damage to the tape. If it's new and you bought it a Wal*Mart or Circuit City though they'll both replace it no questions asked.
You'll have to deal with the TV/VCR though.

I've said it before in this group that RV antifreeze won't keep the waste tank from freezing since it is only really effective full strength. I know you've had success with using it in the past but maybe you were just lucky those times. Salt is about the only thing to keep unheated tanks and valves from freezing but normally if they freeze and aren't full it doesn't damage anything.

I had thought of a possible way to keep them from freezing if you don't have electricity and use the furnace to heat the rig  and don't want to use salt in the tanks. I haven't tried doing it but it should work. If you block off the underside of the RV around the tank and valve area at least and somehow attach a dryer vent tube to the top outside vent of the furnace and route it into the enclosed area it should give enough heat to keep the tanks and valves from freezing. I know people that use a light bulb underneath when they have electric and it works for them up in New England and Canada during the winter.
They use a 60w bulb in a clamp-on light fixture and foam sheets to close off the underside and valves. The bulb gives off enough heat to keep things from freezing. The furnace top vent is the exhaust vent, the bottom is the air intake, and blows a lot of heat out and that should be enough as well. Again, I haven't tried it or had the need to yet but it could work.

Mike
Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18958
Gus,

I'm glad you survived your problems, and I hope you were able to enjoy the trip despite the problems.  I agree, that
Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18959
Quote
I'm always leery when someone I don't really know that well tells me they can give me an electric hook-up. Often unless they have a RV
We generally don't hook-up when we visit. However the stinger I've run into frequently is when your hosts insist the parking will be 'level'. I think I've yet not to use leveling blocks at the curb or in a driveway. In campgrounds, usually need them less than half the time.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18963
Steve,
 You're right about the "level" sites people seem to offer most times.
I always disbelieve that when they say it as well! Many campgrounds try to give fairly level sites but not all do.

I will hook-up to electric at times though but I'm careful as to where and when and typically check or monitor it just like I do in campgrounds and if it's a standard 15amp socket try not to run any big draw items with other things on.

Mike
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18964
On 2003-02-12, richmondmj829 wrote:
 
Quote
If you block off the underside of the RV around the tank and valve area at least and somehow attach a dryer vent tube to the top outside vent of the furnace and route it into the enclosed area it should give enough heat to keep the tanks and valves from freezing.
Beware carbon monoxide.  It can find its way in pretty easily even without purposely concentrating it: my partner and some of his friends quite nearly died a few years ago from CO pooling under and around the coach.  Granted, it was from a generator not a heater, and it was a crappy class A rig not an LD -- but be careful anyway.

Valerie (26.5mb 2001 -- mid coast, CA)
Re: CO
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18971
Valerie, That was something I had considered and it is a possible problem with trying what I suggested. There is a CO alarm standard in all new LDs and although they can fail and should be tested frequently. They also may need to be replaced periodically if they fail the test mode with a fresh battery. I think it would give warning before a problem occurred most times. The enclosed area would also not be completely air tight though it would concentrate the CO much more than when it operates as designed and that would be under the LD near our main sleeping area.

Nonetheless it is a very good point and one anybody that might try doing this should be aware of! I'm glad you mentioned it because I didn't in my original post! People should also make sure to test their CO alarm before and during any cold weather camping trip at least once a week.

Keeping a roof vent or window open just a crack can also help minimize the risks though on the downside it does let a cold draft in and some heat escape. I like the fresh air anyway to keep it from getting stale inside and to reduce condensation inside the RV.

Mike
Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18974
Quote
If you block off the underside of the RV around the tank and valve area at least and somehow attach a dryer vent tube to the top outside vent of the furnace and route it into the enclosed area it should give enough heat to keep the tanks and valves from freezing.
Lazy Daze and Suburban recommend the air flow to/from the exterior furnace vents not be restricted. It could cause elevated furnace operating temperatures and unsafe operation.

Regards, Bob
[Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18975
Quote
We travel w/ a hair dryer and it's come in quite handy for thawing
frozen gate valves!  Of course the key is to dump when thawed...gotta plan ahead and sometimes that doesn't always work.  The other thing we've done is to WASTE OUR HOT WATER when we've NOT planned ahead and HAD TO DUMP by putting as much hot water into the tanks as possible.
Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18991
Bob,
 I don't think I would consider a dryer vent tube as a restriction of airflow to or from the furnace but it could be. I think if it were dryers would cause a lot more fires than there are now from people not keeping the lint cleaned out of the tubes and outdoor vent area that restricts the airflow in them.  It also would not keep it from venting to the atmosphere as required. Suburban does not want you to let it vent into an add-on or screen room either and according to someone I spoke to at Suburban regarding an add-on room and proper venting they suggested using a dryer vent tube to channel the exhaust outside the room. I don't really know if that was Suburban's position or just his suggestion or opinion though and I don't have an add-on room yet anyway but that was what got me thinking about the possibility of doing this in the first place.
 What LD and Suburban don't want you to do is close off any of the air flow with doors or slide outs that get in front of the vents and block them or screens that have a small mesh spacing that do restrict the flow of air. Suburban doesn't have a problem with some of the vent screens that are made specifically for these vents like the larger spacing mesh stainless steel ones of some Mud Dauber screens.
They don't restrict the flow. I have that type on my LD because in Fl Mud Daubers are real problems and so are spiders and other things that often like to build nests in these vents. Those are more of a problem for airflow restriction that often goes unnoticed if not checked thoroughly. I also talked to Suburban about them before I bought mine and was told that they were OK to use. I got mine from Camper's Choice.
 I don't think we'd be in freezing temps long enough anyway to need to dump my tanks when we winter camp in ours. I'd go into those areas with empty tanks and dump after getting back to warmer ones most times. I've never had a need to yet even when I hunted in Maine with my dad camping in a travel trailer for a week. We did use other facilities also though and I would with our LD also by limiting dishwashing by using disposable products and other methods to reduce liquid waste to a minimum prolonging the need to dump.

Mike
Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18992
"I don't think I would consider a dryer vent tube as a restriction of airflow to or from the furnace but it could be. I think if it were dryers would cause a lot more fires than there are now from people not keeping the lint cleaned out of the tubes and outdoor vent area that restricts the airflow in them."

Mike

Comparing the exhaust of a dryer to the exhaust from the furnace is like comparing apples to oranges. Dryers are designed to vent into vent tubes. The reason why they do not catch on fire is that the exhaust temperature is below the flash point on lint.

A short straight tube probably does not have much restriction and might be OK for venting the furnace through an add on-room.
The tube restriction is going vary according to the relationship between the location of holding tanks on any particular LD and the furnace exhaust vent. On my 23.5' FL, it would require a rather long, convoluted piece of tubing. The longer the tubing run and the greater the amount of turns, the greater the restriction. I know than in the case of HVAC ducting, the resistance builds rather quickly when making turns. This is a similar situation.
I think you should be careful advocating this use. One could end up damaging the furnace. Hopefully in the case of excessive restriction, the overheat switch would shut down the burner. It could be an expensive experiment. I sure that it would invalidate the Suburban warranty.
Page 2 of the Suburban manual that came with our LD states; "It is imperative that the flow of intake combustion air and the flow of exhaust gases being expelled to the outside atmosphere not be obstructed"

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 19207
Larry, You and others are correct about that idea being a bad one! I never said every idea I come up with is a good idea and this was definitely not a good idea for a few reasons as others here have pointed out.

Like the resistance in bends in HVAC systems it would also be a problem with this since there would be more than one bend and the heat flow would be directed down not up, opposite its natural flow direction. If the tube was bent up like with a wood stove, fireplace chimney, or most dryers  it wouldn't create a problem at all but down is a totally different story.

The CO release under the vehicle could also be a big health problem for you and we all know that CO detectors/alarms can fail so for that reason it is also not good the let it escape under even a non- enclosed under chassis as is the case with an exhaust system that has a leak. It's about as stupid as the Dept of Homeland Security's suggestion to use plastic and duct tape to seal off your house in the case of a chemical or biological terrorist attack. That could lead to CO2 poisoning for more people that wouldn't have actually been at risk and may be too late for many by time they are aware of the attack to do any good anyway. It's akin to the "duck and cover" of the late'50s and early `60s for a possible nuclear attack, now it's "duct and cover"! Neither would do much good. The most good it may have done is the minute amount to spur the economy though with runs on plastic and duct tape!
 I hope nobody tries that idea. There are other ways to keep the tanks from freezing and even if they do and aren't full it won't cause any problem except for not being able to dump until it thaws. It could cause other minor problems or inconveniences for you but wouldn't harm the RV systems.

Mike
Sometimes it Happens!
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18954
Thanks for the info.  Where are you in Colorado?  We are in Colorado Springs, and will have a new 2003 30 footer soon.  Hope to be able to get through the cold winters......we're actually at 7,000 feet in Monument.  The moho is stored outside and we have had no trouble in the past with the 1995 we had here.
 Let us know any other tips you have for cold weather.  Doesn't salt ruin the pipes?

Jane and Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18955
Jane & Bob, Salt doesn't affect the plastic pipes or waste tanks of RVs. It can dry out the rubber gate valve seals if you don't flush the tanks well with fresh water after dumping and if you don't use something to lubricate the seals. Most of the sewage tank treatments have lubricants in them but if you use one that doesn't it's best to use vegetable based oil not Vaseline as the LD manual recommends on units where you can clean and lubricate them manually. Vaseline deteriorates natural rubber and I believe the gate valve seals contain both natural and synthetic rubbers. Any vegetable oil will work including filtered used frying oil. On vehicles that you can't get to the gate valve to clean and lubricate them putting a small amount of vegetable oil in the toilet for the black tank seals if your tank treatment doesn't say it lubricates the valves helps. The gray tank won't need it since it gets enough oil just from washing dishes.
 If you use salt in the tank it does take a few pounds and the amount needed depends on the tank size and at what level you dump them. RV antifreeze is only fully effective at full strength and once it starts mixing with water the freezing point drops rapidly until it is basically totally ineffective.

Mike
Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18960
-

Quote
If you use salt in the tank it does take a few pounds and the amount needed depends on the tank size and at what level you dump them. RV antifreeze is only fully effective at full strength and once it starts mixing with water the freezing point drops rapidly until it is basically totally ineffective.

Mike
I would think that a gallon of RV antifreeze added to an empty grey or black tank would at least protect the the drain valves and the outflow pipes from the tank. I base this on thinking that if the tanks were empty the antifreeze would seek the lowest point which would be the outflow pipe. I suppose different models have different outflow configerations so YMMV. If you are in below freezing temps long enough the tank itself would freeze but my theory should work for short term below freezing temps because the outflow is the most exposed. If you have the optional tank insulation then it would buy you more time before you are carrying a block of frozen yuck.

Norm
Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18961
--

Quote
I would think that a gallon of RV antifreeze added to an empty grey or black tank would at least protect the the drain valves and the outflow pipes from the tank. I base this on thinking that if the tanks were empty the antifreeze would seek the lowest point which would be the outflow pipe. I suppose different models have different outflow configerations so YMMV. If you are in below freezing temps long enough the tank itself would freeze but my theory should work for short term below freezing temps because the outflow is the most exposed. If you have the optional tank insulation then it would buy you more time before you are carrying a block of frozen yuck.

Norm
Of course my whole theory is based on two assumptions.

1. The tanks are completely empty including the outflow pipes  
2. That since the antifreeze would be traped in the outflow then no
 mixing with additional added liquid would occur.

If 1 and 2 are not true then my theory would not work.

Norm
Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18962
Norm, Even if the tanks are completely empty when you add the RV antifreeze and it goes to the gate valves at that point once you add any liquid it will start to mix with the added liquid and reduce the effectiveness of it. I don't know exactly how much it would mix but doubt it would help a great deal.

The insulation of the tanks and pipes to the gate valves will slow the freezing but they will still freeze if you're in below freezing temps for a long enough time. I did get that option but of course with 20/20 hindsight I kind of wish I hadn't and don't think I'd ever do it again.

Mike
Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18965
Quote
The insulation of the tanks and pipes to the gate valves will slow the freezing but they will still freeze if you're in below freezing temps for a long enough time. I did get that option but of course with 20/20 hindsight I kind of wish I hadn't and don't think I'd ever do it again.
Mike,

I don't understand your point here. Is the holding tank insulation ineffective?  Is it your experience that the tanks are going to freeze most of the time anyway, even with the tank insulation, unless you use antifreeze or salt?

I have ordered the insulation on my MB and am wondering if I am wasting my money.  Any other opinions from those who have it?

thx,

Mike S.
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18967
On 2003-02-12, schafir mschafir@...> wrote:
 
Quote
I have ordered the insulation on my MB and am wondering if I am wasting my money.  Any other opinions from those who have it?
If I had a do-over, I'd skip the holding tank insulation.  It likely does add a short grace period during a temperature dip, but at this point I'm mostly annoyed at how difficult it will be to add accurate sensors (the outside-the-tank capacitive type).

Valerie (26.5mb 2001 -- mid coast, CA)
Re: Salt in waste tanks- insulated tanks
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18968
Valerie
 You are correct in saying that insulated tanks just add a short grace period before freezing. The spray foam LD uses does not cover the drain valves, which are the most vulnerable parts of the holding tank system. To be effective, insulated tanks need to receive supplemental heat either from the furnace or from electric holding tank heaters.
Since LD's tanks are exposed, furnace heat is not available unless your model is configured in a way to make this modification possible.
The other choice, electric heaters require that hookups are available. Your batteries are not capable of providing the power required for more than a few hours. Running the generator is not a good way to provide this power since it needed for many hours a day in extremely cold conditions.
In case the tanks need to be removed for some reason, it will be a difficult job to cut the foam free.
LD probably offers it to stay "competitive". Both Ed and Steve definitely do not recommend installing it.
I did not order it. If I install electric heaters in the future, I will use sheet foam insulation glued onto the tanks after the heaters are installed.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18969
Quote
I have ordered the insulation on my MB and am wondering if I am wasting my money.  Any other opinions from those who have it?
I don't have it, but agree with other posters here. Any heat generated within the tanks by microbial action would be miniscule, so in effect without a heat source, the tanks will eventually freeze.
The insulation will help even out day-night fluctuations, but if the average temp is below 32 degrees, freezing is just a matter of time.
 However, most schemes to prevent freezing are big energy consumers - requiring a lot of watts to compensate for heat loss, even with insulation. This usually means 110V hookup, or extra btu's from the furnace - depleting a limited resource. Insulation alone may accomodate most cold-weather recreationists, or skirting and an external heater can be used for longer stays in full-service campgrounds.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18970
Mike S.

If you read the replies from Valerie, Larry, and Steve they about cover the reasons I wouldn't do it again. I will say though that the insulation they spray on at least on mine and the one I saw but really didn't look at by getting underneath the vehicle like I have on mine since getting it do have insulation all the way to the gate valves.
 Using salt or antifreeze won't help much either unless you use a lot of it. If you note Barry's reply to Gus about using 10lbs and he still heard telltale signs of it having frozen. RV antifreeze is propylene glycol and when mixed with water the freezing point drops rapidly from the -50F they are rated at full strength. That's why they say to use full strength and to remove all water prior to using it. It mixes readily with water so it will freeze at a much higher temp with only a few gallons of water mixed with it.

If you don't fill the waste tank it won't harm anything if it does freeze. The pipe from the valve to the tank will freeze first and sine the tank is vented it has no air pressure to cause the expansion to go outward in the pipe, it will expand like ice cubes in a tray in an upward direction. If don't need to dump the tanks it it's best to wait until they thaw and then dump. Sometimes that's not possible though and you need to keep them liquid to dump. In that case only heat will really help! I know the light bulb idea works because my relatives in Maine use that method and there is a web page on winter camping that recommends it also. The people that wrote that page live and winter camp in Canada!

The insulation is blown on but there is about a 4" gap between the motor home floor and the top of the black tank on the 26.5MB with almost no insulation on the top side of it, the gray tank is fully insulated to the floor but heat rises and the floor is insulated so very little heat will be exchanged to keep it from freezing.
Insulation only holds off the freezing and keeps whatever heat is inside there for so long until it ultimately freezes. I had asked Ed, Paul, and Steve about it and they told me it would help but not stop the tanks from freezing and recommended using salt to help further in prolonged cold weather. Paul was the most optimistic of the three.

I wouldn't do it again and I think the other posts gave most my reasons. If the tank did get a leak it would probably be less labor intensive and not much more expensive to just replace it rather than repair it and often they can be repaired for very little. I'm not concerned much about the sensors since I flush my tanks well and have a good idea as to how long I can go before dumping even if they do fail.
 I feel like the insulation was a waste of money better spent on other things. You can get 2 tank heaters for about the same price as the insulation option, but you need that many on the black tank alone.
You can only fit one on the gray tank of the 26.5MB, I don't know about other models. Heaters cost around $80 and are 30x13" so only two will fit on the black tank and one on the gray tank. They recommend 1/15gl of capacity but if you insulate around them after attaching it wouldn't require that many. It would require an electric hook-up though or a lot more battery power than standard along with a few solar panels or a wind generator that can still produce power after dark when the temps go down and the power is needed most to heat them (provided the wind is blowing). I would prefer to leave an air gap though around the tanks between it and the insulation and not glue directly to it. Most likely using an aluminum strap framing to attach urethane foam sheet insulation to and then attach that to the LD and seal it to it only around the top of the foam. Otherwise I think you'd still end up with the same problem of removing it from the tank if needed. The dead air space created would also help the insulation.

Mike
Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18972
Thank you all for the explanations.  Looks like the prevailing opinion is to delete the tank insulation.  Something to think about.
I have to balance that against better ways to spend the $150 and also upsetting LD by deleting an option that I already ordered!

thx,

Mike
Re: Salt in waste tanks
Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 18973
Quote from: schafir "

I ordered my 23.5 2002 FL with insulated grey and black holding tanks and after reading similiar post against insulating the tanks decided against it. I e-mailed the mother factory to cancel the insulation order which they did.  I was told, by Steve, after asking to have the insulation order cancelled that I had made a good decision.
Larry