Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

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Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

August 31, 2022, 12:14:04 am

Our MB has always been parked in an outdoor storage lot. The 2 solar panels have been more than adequate to keep the 2 AGM house batteries charged, and we have not yet had to replace the original equipment batteries. In part because of concern about catalytic converter theft, we are looking at renting a fully enclosed garage unit to store the LD. Also, it would be nice not to have to sweep snow off of the solar panels in the winter. The garage unit comes with a 110V outlet. The outlet would be handy for putting a trickle charger on the engine battery. One thing I don't fully understand though is whether keeping the LD continuously plugged into the outlet might harm the AGM house batteries. Could someone speak to this? Other than an added internal Progressive surge protector, all of the electrical equipment on our MB is factory original.

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #1 – August 31, 2022, 04:35:53 am

Hi Paul; Your 1994 electrical system is not the best. Electronics has changed a lot. The battery charger built into the converter will overcharge the batteries and ruin them quickly if left plugged in 24/7. Many people hook the LD shore plug up through a timer, and set it for about an hour of connected time per day. That will keep the batteries charged up, but not overcharged. The solar charge controller should have a battery digital readout, and you can adjust that timer connect time +/- to maintain about 12.7 VDC on the batteries. That target voltage is a bit dependent on the temperature of the rig and batteries. RonB

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #2 – August 31, 2022, 09:36:48 am

I just installed a Progressive Dynamics PD4655v 4-stage converter which is supposed to "smart charge" the batteries and lower to a trickle charge when they are topped off. After one day of having it installed, I'm seeing my charge is a constant 13.5v even when the batteries are fully charged so I'm not sure when it drops down lower than that.

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #3 – August 31, 2022, 10:20:28 am

Ron, I think Paul has a 2010 MB.

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #4 – August 31, 2022, 11:07:22 am

"I'm seeing my charge is a constant 13.5v even when..."

"Seeing" voltage is not an indication of how much 'current' is flowing in the system! That's why a Battery Monitoring System is so critical for knowing what the electrical system is really doing.

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #5 – August 31, 2022, 11:25:12 am

Quote from: Paul H. - August 31, 2022, 12:14:04 am

The 2 solar panels have been more than adequate to keep the 2 AGM house batteries charged, and we have not yet had to replace the original equipment batteries.

Do you still have the original batteries after 12 years? Wow!
Later model converters are supposed not to overcharge AGMs, the only way to know for sure is to plug it in and check the float voltage after a couple of days.

Larry

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #6 – August 31, 2022, 12:02:45 pm

We have stored our 2019 MB indoors since it was new (May 2019). We always connected the Parallax 8355 Converter/Charger (with temperature monitor) in to shore power. We mostly dry camp, and our daily Ah consumption has always been low (range fan, refrigerator, occasional furnace, water maker). Recently, we began noticing that even though our power demands are low, our battery voltage (displayed on our Blue Sky 3000i control), would drop quickly in the morning. With help from Larry, Steve and Vince (former Lazy Daze Service Manager, now with Leisure Coachworks in Fontana, CA), I determined that one of my LifeLine AGM batteries was bad (either overly sulfated or perhaps a bad cell). I installed new AGM batteries since LifeLine supplied them at 50% of MSRP (a generous proration of my 3.5 years use on a 5 year warranty). I also installed a Victron BMV-812 Smart battery monitor.

With regard to the root cause of my battery problem, LifeLine suggested that my battery was most likely sulfated due to overcharging. They recommended that going forward, I either disconnect the battery bank when putting the coach into indoor storage or use a trickle charger with charge voltage suitable for the ambient temperature of my storage unit (optimal float and absorption charge voltage is related to battery temperature). I also spoke with an electrical engineer at Parallax to ensure that I understood my charger/converter. Parallax stated that my device adjusts voltage based on battery temperature. Both Parlallax and LifeLine stated that I should take the coach out of storage once a month and put a load on the batteries and then charge, either by AC converter/charger or the BlueSky controller (which, by the way is not equipped with a temperature monitor but can be easily upgraded). Finally, LifeLine recommended periodically (once per year), Equalizing the batteries (partially reverses sulfation effects), either via a dealer with the equipment or by writing to LifeLine who will loan their equalizing charger for the price of freight.

So, my lessons are: 1) Root cause of battery failure = overcharging and not equalizing periodically, and 2) Corrective action = replace batteries and add a battery monitor to detect problems early, and 3) Preventative action = disconnect house battery bank when stored indoors, discharge and charge battery bank at 4 - 6 weeks, and equalize battery bank at one year or so.

Finally, I will eventually upgrade to LFP batteries. But this Fall, with a busy camping schedule, is not the time…

Warren

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #7 – August 31, 2022, 12:53:59 pm

Thanks Greg; Sorry I missed Pauls' significant upgrade to a newer coach. Indeed the 2010 electronics is better. If he does store it inside with essentially no solar, the propane monitor and other phantom drains will, along with the lead-acid internal loss of power, result in a depleted battery bank. So it does need some way to charge the battery at least once in a while. Having a 110VAC outlet available is great, and my answer with a daily short interval connection by timer would still work with the Parallax. My opinion is that the Parallax will 'float' the batteries at too high a voltage, and damage AGM batteries.
I don't know which solar controller came with a 2010 rig. HPV-22B, or the R3000i. Warren said his rig with R3000i did not come with a temperature compensation sensor. Maybe the factory concluded that the parallax converter took care of that, and the sensor wasn't needed for the SB3000i. Either way, the solar controller can only shut down it's own charge voltage. The Parallax does its own thing. RonB

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #8 – August 31, 2022, 01:09:23 pm

In the Blue Sky 3000I's Manual, it shows an optional temperature sensor is available.

"930-0022-20 ..............Optional battery temperature sensor"

Larry

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #9 – August 31, 2022, 01:14:53 pm

Hi Joe; I installed a PD4655 to replace my really old 1999 converter, with new fuse board in 2020. The float is supposed to drop to 13.2 volts eventually, as denoted by the 'blink' frequency of the green LED, once per 5 seconds. The battery voltage won't drop much below that, but it is a 'surface' charge with essentially no current flow as Steve (Lazy Bones) said. I took advantage of the Lithium 'jumper' conversion on the PD converter. Now with LiFePO4 batteries the green LED mostly stays at float mode. RonB

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #10 – August 31, 2022, 01:25:50 pm

Our 2007 TK came with the Heliotrope HPV-22B and the associated temperature sensor. Knowing Lazy Daze I would assume they also installed a temperature sensor when they went to the Blue Sky 3000i. One of the first upgrades I did was to replace the HPV-22B with a 3000i with a temperature sensor. Also, the Blue Sky 3000i will provide battery equalization voltage (if enabled).

EDIT: Regarding eqalization... I just read RonB's post in another thread here...

Quote from: RonB - August 31, 2022, 02:02:49 pm

"AGM's can be ruined by routine equalization, but as Warren said, it can be done. A very short period and infrequently I suspect.

This is the warning in the R3000i manual: "EQUALIZATION WARNING: Not all batteries can be safely equalized. Equalization should be performed only on vented liquid electrolyte lead-acid batteries. Always follow battery manufacturers recommendations pertaining to equalization. Equalization applies a relatively high charge voltage producing significant battery gassing. Prior to performing equalization disconnect equipment that cannot tolerate the high equalization voltage which is temperature compensated as shown above. Equalization is a controlled overcharge used to bring all battery cells up to the same specific gravity and state of charge. The 3000i may be configured to perform an automatic equalization on periodic basis, or a manual equalization. Since sealed batteries should not be equalized the factory default settings have Equalize Enable (EqE) set to OFF to disable automatic or manual equalization.""

Charles

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #11 – August 31, 2022, 03:12:05 pm

Quote from: Charles & Donna - August 31, 2022, 01:25:50 pm

Knowing Lazy Daze I would assume they also installed a temperature sensor when they went to the Blue Sky 3000i.

It should be easy to check to see if a temp sensor is installed, it is attached to one of the battery terminals.

Larry

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #12 – September 01, 2022, 10:27:29 am

Quote from: Larry W - August 31, 2022, 01:09:23 pm

In the Blue Sky 3000I's Manual, it shows an optional temperature sensor is available.

"930-0022-20 ..............Optional battery temperature sensor"

Larry

I found that LD installs this temp sensor. It's undocumented. At least they did on the 2014 run. I may suggest checking the setting on your personal 3000I.

glen

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #13 – September 01, 2022, 02:44:36 pm

On our 2010 RB the Temperature sensor is a thin wafer located between our
T-105 lead acid batteries.

Todd installed a new converter portion in our Parallax Series 7300 - Model 7345 last year as it failed to charge the House Batteries while plugged in.

As we are fortunate to have inside storage with power, we keep plugged in 2-3 weeks, then unplug for a week or so. Keep the batteries topped off with the Profill system (works perfectly). No different than if we were at an RV park plugged in for a few weeks.

The caveat here is that we do exercise the batteries at least once a week while doing catchup maintenance work.

We have been keeping staples, condiments and ice in the refrigerator so it's one less thing to pack before leaving home for a RV trip.

As we almost never boondock (respect those who do), the Lead acid batteries and one solar panel work for us.

Cheers!

Tony R. (aka codefour)

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #14 – September 02, 2022, 09:58:39 am

Upon more careful examination of our 2019 MB (checked wiring from 3000i and Parllax converter/charger to battery bank), I confirmed that Lazy Daze did install a battery temperature lead for both.

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #15 – September 02, 2022, 11:25:59 am

I think we have one but does anyone have a photo? Is it in the battery compartment?

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #16 – September 02, 2022, 02:35:37 pm

In our coach the sensor wire is connected to the positive battery post along with the 6-gauge power wire from the converter.
Mike C

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #17 – September 02, 2022, 02:47:54 pm

Greg,

If your coach is like my 2019 MidBath, you should see a couple of smaller gauge wires attached to your most negative battery terminal, one white/almond (temp lead to Parallax Converter/Charger), and another slightly larger one in Black (to the BlueSky 3000i).

Another way to confirm is to look at the converter by removing the front cover (see photo below), or from the back side, inside the cabinet below your sink. The white/almond cable plugs into the top of the converter there. Similarly, look at your 3000i manual to determine where the temp lead connects to the controller. Then unscrew and carefully pull the controller off the cabinet wall and look to see if the black wire (containing two individual wires) is connected to the 3000i as per the manual (temp lead is the upper Black wire on the photo of my 3000i below).

Warren

PS, the Gray wire in the BlueSky photo is the cable for my Victron BMV-812 - the reason I had the controller off.

Re: Question regarding leaving LD plugged in

Reply #18 – September 02, 2022, 03:13:06 pm

A post I made a few years ago about adjusting the 3000i temp comp setting for the type of battery being changed.

Blue Sky Solar Boost 3000i

glen

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