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Topic: The Secret 12V Manual Reset - 27' Rear Bath (Read 1042 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The Secret 12V Manual Reset - 27' Rear Bath
Reply #50
Interesting. So Lazy Daze added a breaker to the generator 12V line. Makes sense. Anyone know when that change was implemented?

Charles
Harvest Hosts + Boondockers Welcome #23975
Escapees SKP #138195
2007 23.5' Twin King

Re: The Secret 12V Manual Reset - 27' Rear Bath
Reply #51
I dug out my 2004 MB circuit diagram which is slight different from the 2007 version. The diode isolator in 04MB was replaced by an ignition excited contact switch in 07MB. The large breaker on the left (100A in 04MB) protects dc wiring circuits to the diode isolator/contact switch and wiring to the gas generator. Any short occurred in that side of the wiring would trigger this breaker.

Actually, this is incorrect - I guess you are assuming the 100A breaker is effectively between the chassis battery and the generator. However any short in the run to the engine compartment would go no further than the isolator. There is no protection shown on the line to the generator, so any short occuring there would cause a danger of fire in the battery compartment - a calculated risk. Likewise, there is no fuse in the chassis run from the chassis battery to the starter solenoid...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: The Secret 12V Manual Reset - 27' Rear Bath
Reply #52
"both these breakers protect the LD wiring, not the Ford. They are protecting the primary 12V circuits in the house part of of your LD."

Thanks for clarifying, Charles. What I don't understand is why there are two breakers protecting the 12 VDC systems. That means the 12V systems must be split into two branches, one per breaker. This doesn't jibe with what I remember from my 2003 midbath. In that rig, all 12 V power came from a single battery wire feeding into the Parallax power center. A single 12V breaker, mounted under the refrigerator, protected that wire.

It sounds as if things must have changed since my midbath was built. Can you help me understand what each of the two breakers under discussion here protects?
Andy, I do not claim to an electrical expert nor an electrician. I apologize for such a treatise but you asked “...what each of the two breakers under discussion here protects?”

There are two separate 12V systems in a Lazy Daze; the house and the chassis. They are only connected when the Isolator or Contactor is triggered by the ignition switch. This circuit is a direct connection between the house and chassis battery positive terminals. Its purpose is to allow the chassis alternator (which is also connected to the chassis battery positive terminal) to also charge the house battery bank, if needed. The breaker in that circuit protects from a potential fire along its entire path.

Let me summarize what Blue Sea Systems has to say about protecting DC circuits.

If more current flows in a wire than the wire is rated to handle, the wire can heat up, its protective insulation can melt, and the heated wire can start a fire. This overcurrent condition can occur, for example, when a short circuit occurs. Fuses and circuit breakers are used to limit the amount of current that flows through circuit wires. Except for those wires that are intended to carry starting currents, every positive wire in the DC main power distribution system must be protected. The goal of overcurrent protection is to provide protection at the source of power for each circuit. With DC circuits, the overcurrent protection is always placed in the positive side. Circuit protection should be connected as close as possible to the source of power.

Lazy Daze seems to loosely follow the American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC) standards for boat building and repair.

The ABYC recommends that each ungrounded conductor connected to a battery, battery charger, alternator, or other charging source, shall be provided with overcurrent protection within a specified distance of the point of connection to the DC electrical system or to the battery.

I assume that is why Lazy Daze installed two breakers (and now three).

Charles
Harvest Hosts + Boondockers Welcome #23975
Escapees SKP #138195
2007 23.5' Twin King

Re: The Secret 12V Manual Reset - 27' Rear Bath
Reply #53
Andy, I do not claim to an electrical expert nor an electrician. I apologize for such a treatise but you asked “...what each of the two breakers under discussion here protects?”

There are two separate 12V systems in a Lazy Daze; the house and the chassis. They are only connected when the Isolator or Contactor is triggered by the ignition switch. This circuit is a direct connection between the house and chassis battery positive terminals. Its purpose is to allow the chassis alternator (which is also connected to the chassis battery positive terminal) to also charge the house battery bank, if needed. The breaker in that circuit protects from a potential fire along its entire path.

Let me summarize what Blue Sea Systems has to say about protecting DC circuits.

If more current flows in a wire than the wire is rated to handle, the wire can heat up, its protective insulation can melt, and the heated wire can start a fire. This overcurrent condition can occur, for example, when a short circuit occurs. Fuses and circuit breakers are used to limit the amount of current that flows through circuit wires. Except for those wires that are intended to carry starting currents, every positive wire in the DC main power distribution system must be protected. The goal of overcurrent protection is to provide protection at the source of power for each circuit. With DC circuits, the overcurrent protection is always placed in the positive side. Circuit protection should be connected as close as possible to the source of power.

Lazy Daze seems to loosely follow the American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC) standards for boat building and repair.

The ABYC recommends that each ungrounded conductor connected to a battery, battery charger, alternator, or other charging source, shall be provided with overcurrent protection within a specified distance of the point of connection to the DC electrical system or to the battery.

I assume that is why Lazy Daze installed two breakers (and now three).

Charles

Excellent treatise. Thanks, Charles.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB

Re: The Secret 12V Manual Reset - 27' Rear Bath
Reply #54
[quote author=Charles & Donna date=1610995275 link=msg=227024

Lazy Daze seems to loosely follow the American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC) standards for boat building and repair.
The ABYC recommends that each ungrounded conductor connected to a battery, battery charger, alternator, or other charging source, shall be provided with overcurrent protection within a specified distance of the point of connection to the DC electrical system or to the battery.
[/quote]

LD once belonged to RIVA and uses the Associations specifications. I don’t believe ABYC specs ever entered into the equation.
Steve isn’t a boat guy.

AFAIK, the generator start cable is not fused unless a fusable link has been installed somewhere inline. Fusable links are normally four wire gauge sizes smaller than the main wire.
Not fusing the starter's positive cable is commonly seen in vehicles, the starter’s amperage load is very high and a fuse woud need to be huge to hande the heat.
Our LD only has two circuit breakers on the 12-volt side, the ‘hidden’ and the breaker in the battery box, protecting the connection to the isolator.
Greg’s rig appears to have the ‘hidden’ moved to the battery box.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: The Secret 12V Manual Reset - 27' Rear Bath
Reply #55
LD once belonged to RIVA and uses the Associations specifications. I don’t believe ABYC specs ever entered into the equation.
Steve isn’t a boat guy.

AFAIK, the generator start cable is not fused unless a fusible link has been installed somewhere inline. Fusable links are normally four wire gauge sizes smaller than the main wire.
Not fusing the starter's positive cable is commonly seen in vehicles, the starter’s amperage load is very high and a fuse woud need to be huge to hande the heat.

Larry
Good to know that about fusible links and generator start cables; I've seen them in auto starting systems and alternator wiring (had to replace one long ago but chose to go to a MAXI fuse and holder).

I know about the RIVA, we have a RIVA sticker on our coach. Is Lazy Daze no longer a member? Seems RIVA won't share their specifications with us common folk without a membership and payment. So I went with ABYC specs; I bet ABYC is more stringent than RIVA, just as ASTM aircraft standards are even more involved and strict than ABYC.

Charles



Harvest Hosts + Boondockers Welcome #23975
Escapees SKP #138195
2007 23.5' Twin King

 
Re: The Secret 12V Manual Reset - 27' Rear Bath
Reply #56
Thanks for the thorough explanation, Charles. I wasn't thinking of the van chassis's separate 12 V system, just the coach 12 V system.

From what I saw when I rewired my midbath, I doubt Lazy Daze has ever heard of ABYC. :-)
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"