Noisy, creaking suspension June 24, 2020, 07:59:17 pm Cyndy and I will be leaving for two weeks in Colorado in three weeks.On our last two trips, the LD has developed a noisy creaking sound when the coach rocks left and right at low speeds, like after exiting a fuel station. The noise comes from both the back and the front.Any suggestions where I should start looking for the source? Sway bar bushings? Shock mounts? We have the Bilstein shocks.Harold
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #1 – June 24, 2020, 08:24:43 pm Harold, the chassis gurus will answer, I know, but the first things I'd check are the upper bushings on the Bilsteins; they are notorious for compressing, cracking, and disappearing altogether! The second thing I'd check would be the ball joints; worn ball joints can lead to sloppy, "rocky" front end movement. (I'd check the entire steering assembly and the anti-sway bar [loose bolts, damage], too.)Please post when you diagnose the cause(s) of the "squeaky rocking"! 1 Likes
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #2 – June 24, 2020, 09:01:49 pm In the rear, the leaves of the leaf springs rub when the rear suspension moves up and down and can make noise.Make sure the spring's leaves have their plastic anti-friction pads in the tips of the first few leaves, the rear springs often break the pads and spit them out, especially with rigs used on rough roads. Leaves with holes at the tips should have pads.Pads look like this (not the correct part number)Amazon.com: Dorman 924-070 Leaf Spring Spacer: AutomotiveHave you tightened all the body to cross member nuts recently? Loose coach bolts can cause funny noises when the chassis is flexed on poor roads or when the frame is twisted up. Snug them up if they have never been tightened or not been done in a long time.Low-speed screeching is often caused by the front disc brake's hard disc brake pads, it's usually a normal sound.The front suspension has few moving parts, each side has two bushings (one on the radius arm and the other on the I-beam), two ball joints, the spring and shock absorber, take a look at them and, while you are at it, lube the ball joints and the rest of the suspension if not done recently. The sway bar bushings, both on the frame and in the I-beam can also squeak.If you have Bilstein shocks, check the front top shock bushings to make sure they still tight, they loosen with use and if not kept tight, they will even destroy themselves and fall out.Shock bushings | FlickrTracking down suspension noises can be frustrating. One method is to test suspected components, one at a time, by spraying the part with a light lube, such as WD-40, and then test driving it through a course known to produce noise, to see if the noise changes or is eliminated. Yes, it takes time but either you can do it for free or have Ford do the same at $150 an hour rates. It isn't hard work, just a bit dirty.Most rigs do not have worn suspension or steering parts fail with less than 60,000 miles, with ball joints and sway bar bushing the first to leave, along with the steering stabilizer.Larry 2 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #3 – June 24, 2020, 09:36:31 pm Quote from: Larry W - June 24, 2020, 09:01:49 pmHave you tightened all the body to cross member nuts recently? Loose coach bolts can cause funny noises when the chassis is flexed on poor roads or when the frame is twisted up. Snug them up if they have never been tightened or not been done in a long time.At what point would you recommend tightening those bolts?
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #4 – June 24, 2020, 10:57:45 pm Thank you Joan and Larry,I will address each of the items you suggested. Those top shock bushings look like a really inconvenient job! The sway bar bushings are definitely suspect, also.Harold
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #5 – June 25, 2020, 12:08:37 am Quote from: Blueox25 - June 24, 2020, 07:59:17 pmCyndy and I will be leaving for two weeks in Colorado in three weeks.On our last two trips, the LD has developed a noisy creaking sound when the coach rocks left and right at low speeds, like after exiting a fuel station. The noise comes from both the back and the front.Any suggestions where I should start looking for the source? Sway bar bushings? Shock mounts? We have the Bilstein shocks.HaroldWhat part of Colorado are you visiting, Harold?Chris
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #6 – June 25, 2020, 12:19:57 am Chris,Silverton, Ouray, and Telluride. We will be looking for interesting back roads and day trips.Can you recommend books or maps we shouldn't be without?.
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #7 – June 25, 2020, 02:34:08 am Quote from: Blueox25 - June 24, 2020, 10:57:45 pmThose top shock bushings look like a really inconvenient job! E450s with the stock Ford shocks do not seem to have the same loosening issue as the Bilsteins. During the building of the chassis, Ford has some way of quickly tightening the shocks' top nuts to the proper torque.The Bilsteins are installed by LD and their workers have the same problem getting to the top nuts as we do. Too many of them are not tightened enough and eventually loosen. If the bushing are damaged or missing, replace them with genuine Bilstein bushings, they are better than the ones found at the big box auto stores.If replacement is needed, are the ones. Bilstein B4-KT1-Z097A00. Get them good and tight.https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bsn-b4kt1z097a00Check the top nuts on the rear shocks too.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #8 – June 25, 2020, 10:07:32 am Re: frame bolts. The search feature on this forum is found on the drop down list which appears when "hovering" over the little house icon on the home page; a search using "frame bolts" as a keyword will bring up dozens of posts containing relevant information on the topic. Basically (and there is more information to be gained from some of the posts mentioned above as available through a search), it's a good idea to inspect the frame mounting bolts (holds the "box" to the frame) every 1-2 years; check at more frequent intervals if you travel consistently on bad roads. The bolts at the rear of the coach are the most likely to need tightening. Use a 9/16" deep socket and 15-20 ft/lb torque if one has equipment to measure torque. Don't overtighten the bolts and risk pulling the bolt heads through the plywood floor of the box. (Note: Not all of the frame bolts are accessible.)Inspect the mounting hardware and bolts on the gas tank, holding tanks, generator, and entry step at least once each year. I suggest doing all the bolt tightening (and undercarriage inspection) one can manage at one time to save having to crawl under the rig and scoot around multiple times.YMMV, as always. 2 Likes
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #9 – June 25, 2020, 10:58:59 am Quote from: Blueox25 - June 25, 2020, 12:19:57 amChris,Silverton, Ouray, and Telluride. We will be looking for interesting back roads and day trips.Can you recommend books or maps we shouldn't be without?.You'll find lots to do in those areas. I primarily use the internet for trip planning. If you are not familiar with this blog, it's all about Ouray and surrounding areas. boxcanyonblog.comChris 1 Likes
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #10 – June 25, 2020, 11:02:30 am This is a LONG way from Noisy, creaking suspension. Looks like Chris's fault.Quote from: Blueox25 - June 25, 2020, 12:19:57 amChris,Silverton, Ouray, and Telluride. We will be looking for interesting back roads and day trips.Can you recommend books or maps we shouldn't be without?.We use the Guide to Colorado Backroads & 4 Wheel Drive Trails from Funtreks.com.They usually have these for sale in the store next to the Forest Service storefront or buy online.There are no really hardcore trails in that area. We have done most of them in an armored Liberty.With a lifted Rubicon they are all easy.There are a few shelf roads that give some folks the jebers, I just close my eyes.We especially like the trails around the Red Mountains.Silverton Red Mountain2&3 by Mark | Not Mine | The Real Delta Mike | FlickrCO - Silverton 2013:08:10d | The Real Delta Mike | FlickrCO - Silverton 2017:09:15b | The Real Delta Mike | Flickrwhere we park - mineral creekCO - Silverton 2013:08:04 | The Real Delta Mike | FlickrI think this is the highest passCO - Silverton 2013:08:04 | The Real Delta Mike | FlickrIf a miracle happens we will be there in August.The base at Silverton is 8,500, never shorts weather. Expect 38-44 in the evening.Fill your propane tankBring groceries, the sole grocery has a limited selection and high prices. 1 Likes
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #11 – June 25, 2020, 11:36:01 am Thanks Don, I ordered the book and a Natl. Geo map of the area.Our Wrangler is not a Rubicon. A locker would give me a little more confidence at times, but so far the limited slip seems to do the job. If the trail gets too rough, I find another way.Harold
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #12 – June 25, 2020, 01:03:58 pm Don't recall ever needing lockers in that area. Most of the trails are county roads, which are mostly rocky. The dozers are clearing the higher roads of snow right now.The guide shows pictures of the trails and you can find mucho pictures on the web for a given trail to help make up your mind.On my scale the trails are easy to moderate.
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #13 – June 25, 2020, 01:14:35 pm Quote from: Blueox25 - June 25, 2020, 12:19:57 amChris,Silverton, Ouray, and Telluride. We will be looking for interesting back roads and day trips.Can you recommend books or maps we shouldn't be without?.Don's suggestion for the Colorado 4X4 guide from FunTreks is the same as we used. Pay attention to the difficulty level.We first drove a lot of these trails in 2006, returning from the LD 50th Grand Caravan.On our last trip, in 2015, we found many of the popular trails reworked by the local county road crews, making the trails and switch-backs wider, to increase the capacity of the trails. This area is a very popular off-road tourist area, with many off-road toy rentals available, the increase in traffic over the ten years was unbelievable.They left some of the narrow ledge roads intact, so some of the thrills remains.Silverton has the Alpine Loop, an all-day 60+ mile tour of the high county east of Silverton, it's one of our favorite and not a technical drives. The trails into Telluride are amazing with lots of pucker experiences, it's an all-day event going up the one-way Bear Claw Pass and back down Imogene Pass or drive either pass and return to camp on the paved roads. Colorado's trails are very rough, air down the Jeep's tires when running any of these trails and make sure to have an adequate air supply for reinflation. It makes a huge difference in ride quality.Telluride is one of the few mining towns in Colorado that has extensively tried to mitigate the damage caused by the area's mining activities with huge public works, designed to control runoff. One the last trip, we were coming back into Silverton on the Alpine loop. At an overlook, we could see that the Animas River had turned orange. It was the result of a failed attempt of an EPA contractor trying to sealing the Gold King Mine, the accident dumped millions of gallons of heavy-metal contaminated water into the river earlier in the day. Once back at the river level, we gawked at the tourists swimming in the river, wondering why anyone would think orange water was safe to swim in. The trail book has enough possibilities to keep you busy most of the summer.To the east of Montrose is the Black Canyon of the Gunnison NP, another on our bucket list.Have fun and stay safe.Larry
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #14 – June 25, 2020, 02:06:57 pm Thanks Larry,We are looking forward to some fun exploring.We explored the Montrose, Black Canyon of the Gunnison, Crested Butte area two years ago, pulling the trailer with the bike. It is a beautiful area and the Black Canyon of the Gunnison NP was impressive. I did discover while riding a gravel road south of Black Canyon that the logging trucks were a hazard to contend with. After literally being run off the road into the bushes twice, I asked a rancher what was going on. He said that the truckers were paid by the load and they drive the roads as fast as possible and don't yield for anything, wheeled, two footed or four. I decided that it would be a good idea to return to camp and finds a different area to explore.Thanks for the tips.Out to the barn and under the Lazy Daze to follow your suggestions.Harold
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #15 – June 25, 2020, 10:06:28 pm OK.All of the nuts holding the coach to the frame are tight. The rear Bilsteins are tight and the bushings look good. The sway bar bushings still look good. The top nut on the front Bilstein is going to be a booger to check.When Cyndy rocks the coach back and forth, the creak starts making noise. I don't feel the creak vibration in the sway bar mount bushing or ends, but with the palm of my hand I can easily feel the creak in the spring pack.I raised the frame until the lower four springs separated and injected lithium grease between the springs at both ends, but the other 7 springs are still mashed tight together. There is reddish dust on the undersides of all of those lower springs.Alas, the noise is still there. I guess tomorrow I will have to lift the frame on both sides until the rear tires come off the ground and see if I can get some grease between the lower springs. It will be a two step process: raise the frame and put jack stands under it, lower the jack and block it up higher with a big wide block, and raise it again. I really hate doing that, since i had a car fall when I had blocked up 2 jacks on 2x4's when I was a kid. Live, learn, and get more cautious.I'm using a 12 ton pneumatic bottle jack and 6 ton jack stands. My 12 ton jack stands are presently supporting a trailer that is getting new disk brakes.Larry, is there any other way to lubricate the noisy springs?Harold
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #16 – June 25, 2020, 11:02:44 pm My dad and I used to lubricate leaf springs with a mixture of molybdenum disulfite and kerosene. Messier that hell, but it would wick into the leaf spring pack and stop creaking. I have seen some lubricant in spray cans for locks which uses moly and a volatile carrier. That may work as well. 1 Likes
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #17 – June 26, 2020, 12:49:12 pm The red stuff you see is rusted metal shaving from the springs grinding on themselves.Grease is a short term cure that causes more problems, in the long run, than it cures. Grease attracts dirt and eventually, it will squeak just a badly before, plus it leaves a big mess. as dirt accumulates on the squeeze-out greaseLooking at a rear leaf spring, you will notice holes in both ends of the longer leaves. Our rig has four holes, on the forward side and three holes on the rear side of each spring pack.The holes are supposed to retain the plastic, anti-friction wear pad. You should see the pag and the slight gap between each spring tip that each plate produces. If the pad is totally gone or worn so thin that there is no gap, the plastic pad needs replacement.The pads serve two purposes, they reduce friction when one leaf slides by another and they spearate the leaves, reducing friction by the lack of contact when sliding, provide a smoother, quieter ride.Just looked at ours and you have gifted me with another project. At 120,000 miles, all of ours have worn down to almost no gap or are completely gone.Spreading the leaves wide enough to insert new pads is a challenge with the exceptionally thick spring pack.Don't jack up the whole rear end at once, instead, jack one side at a time for better separation. You may need to disconnect the rear shocks to allow more axle travel. One jacked up, pound old screwdrivers between only two leaves at once, in an attempt to spread them wide enough to insert a new pad.If you decide to replace the pads, pressure wash the spring first to get the grease and dirt off.Now to find the right anti-friction pads, a total of 14 are needed.I'll let you know if I find the correct ones.Parussky's suggestion to use a solution of molybdenum disulfide and kerosene is a better short term solution than grease, it doesn't attract dirt and is a good, dry lubricant until it washes out.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #18 – June 26, 2020, 01:25:53 pm Thanks Larry for a thorough answer. I looked at the plastic pads yesterday and they are either thin or gone. I'll work them apart and see if I can replace those pads by the next trip. I'm a little surprised to have to do this with only 34,000 miles on the rig.Sorry to infect your rig with another project. I find that one project usually leads to another. The three-axle trailer got new tires a few weeks ago. That led to the discovery of thin brake pads on the disks. Pulling the four calipers revealed a master cylinder problem.... At least the mechanic works for free.Harold
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #19 – June 26, 2020, 02:27:34 pm This company seems to offer a broad selection of "wear pads"/"leaf spring tips"! I don't know which, if any, are applicable for use on the E-450; the leaf springs probably don't change much between model years, but there may well be a different leaf spring number or some other "beef up" when the gvwr of the E-450 chassis went from 14050 pounds to 14500 pounds. If the products on this link are of interest, I'd call and find out the specific "pad" needed for the model year of the chassis.Leaf Spring Tip Inserts, Suspension Parts AutoandTruckSpring.com
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #20 – June 27, 2020, 12:32:41 pm Quote from: Joan - June 26, 2020, 02:27:34 pmThis company seems to offer a broad selection of "wear pads"/"leaf spring tips"! Leaf Spring Tip Inserts, Suspension Parts AutoandTruckSpring.comI had to go out and measure the existing pads, not being able to find published specifications on replacement pads.The closest pad found is shown below, I ordered a bag to see if they will fit. On paper, they seem to be the right size and are supposed to show tomorrow, so, hopefully, I will know Monday.Amazon.com: Dorman 924-070 Leaf Spring Spacer: AutomotiveLarry As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #21 – June 27, 2020, 01:16:39 pm I couldn't find specs for the pads, either, which is why I thought something on that site might fit, but I didn't crawl under and measure the pads! I think I'm getting old! (Well, no "think" about it... )
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #22 – June 27, 2020, 05:15:00 pm The August 2020 issue of Motorhome in the "Tech Savy" column addresses a reader's complaint of "noisy leaf springs". The coach owner has a 2008 Class C on the E350 chassis and stated the only thing that stops the squeak is rain. The magazine's help expert suggested having some friends move the coach body up and down while the owner is under the rig to listen for where the sounds are coming from. He also stated that many times the insulator pads wear away and offers a suggestion that the insulator pads are available through auto and truck part stores and truck spring shops. Further he adds that they can usually be installed without removing the springs by loosening the U-bolts while the chassis is supported on jack stands. Of course we are guessing a solution without knowing the true source of Harold's problem. I had an annoying noise under the floor that turned out to be a loose exhaust shield. Good luck Harold.Steve K 1 Likes
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #23 – June 28, 2020, 07:20:44 pm Quote from: Larry W - June 27, 2020, 12:32:41 pmThe closest pad found is shown below, I ordered a bag to see if they will fit. On paper, they seem to be the right size and are supposed to show tomorrow, so, hopefully, I will know Monday.Amazon.com: Dorman 924-070 Leaf Spring Spacer: AutomotiveA follow up on the spring pads, the Dorman spring pads fit our 2003 LDs rear springs. The pads have nubs that stick into the drilled holes in the leave's tip and are a tight fit, they should work fine and a good chance they will fit the later models.Before ordering, verify that the holes in the spring tips measure 1/2" in diameter.Now the hard part, getting the leaf spring's leaves spread wide enought to insert the new pads.LarryUpdate. The installation of the new pads can be found here.Replaced the rear leaf spring tip pads. 1 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Noisy, creaking suspension Reply #24 – June 28, 2020, 10:24:22 pm Thanks to all for the good ideas.My spring pads appear to be OK.I'm still looking for the source of the creaking.Harold
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