Laminate floor installed over Carpet

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Laminate floor installed over Carpet

June 09, 2020, 03:02:03 pm

We are planning on installing laminate style floor to replace the original carpet and wood parkay floor in our 1998 Mid-Bath. I have replaced floors in at least three RVs with engineered wood or laminate style flooring. Each time I have noticed that those vehicles were a little louder with road noise after the carpet was out. I am wondering what if I installed a floating laminate interlocking floor over the carpet and could add under flooring pads over the parkay and linoleum to get it all relatively level. The bathroom door may need to be trimmed and some access panels also. I would hold off 1/4" from the walls etc for expansion and mold over to hide that. There would be a transition between that floor to the front cab carpet. The carpet is in good condition and does not smell. Does anyone have any insight or ideas?

Karen~Liam
98 ~ MB
NinA

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #1 – June 09, 2020, 06:05:53 pm

When you installed laminate flooring before, did you use a foam or felt underlayment, the type used in residential floating laminate flooring?
Having a leak that saturated the carpeting under a monolithic floor could be very difficult to dry out before mold or rot set in, especially in your moist PNW winters.
We had a leak in our home kitchen's laminate flooring, the flooring covered much of the downstairs and all of it had to come up when the water spread under it.

We wanted to cover our Factory carpet and not replace it, the floor gets cold enough in the winter.
If the rig was newer, and if I felt like pulling a couple thousand staples, installing sheet flooring, front to back, and then covering it with a custom cut indoor/outdoor carpet would be my choice, like what we use over our existing carpet.
Our LD's cover carpet is removed every summer for a good scrubbing and then drying on a hot driveway. Every few years, the carpet is replaced with a new piece.

Larry

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #2 – June 09, 2020, 07:04:22 pm

"Having a leak that saturated the carpeting under a monolithic floor could be very difficult to dry out before mold or rot set in, especially in your moist PNW winters."
----
Agreed; I would not put anything over the carpet, particularly anything that would have to be ripped up to get to the carpet underneath to remove it if it got wet and subsequently moldy.

As ever, YMMV.

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #3 – June 10, 2020, 01:35:56 pm

Well, I guess I did not think about leaks! Mostly I always removed the old carpet in other RVs because it was done. Glad I did because leaks do happen! I originally wanted to install hydronic heat under the floor throughout this MB but the boiler systems here in the US do not fit in the place where the Atwood hot water heater is installed. It might be possible to modify a Girard instant hot water heater to run as a boiler but the additional equipment would take space out of right side cargo space. That is something we are not ready to give up, not to mention the weight needed to create a medium which would be best as a radiator for the hydronic tubes in the floor. Good advice!   Thanks !!!

   Karen~Liam
   98 ~ MB
   NinA

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #4 – June 10, 2020, 10:49:42 pm

Karen and Liam - we are doing this same project right now. I want an easy to clean floor so a laminate floor fits better for me than carpeting. Below is some general info on laminate flooring in sticks and bricks homes, and how we are adapting to putting it in an RV (not what it is designed for).

First all laminate flooring is not made the same, so read the detailed install instructions and check things like the depth of the flooring, and if it is water resistant or water proof or neither (more on that later) so you can compare your choices. You will find a big difference.

By putting laminate flooring in an RV we are violating the warranty (I don't know of any company that would honor it). I actually say some floors specifically Do Not Install in an RV - that is new. But by knowing how each specific laminate brand/style is used in a house you can make a good choice for your RV.

General info:
Laminate flooring (the interlocking stuff), also called floating floor because it is not attached to the floor with glue/nails, is not designed to go over carpet. Most laminate companies want that product on a hard surface like plywood or cement and have specific minimum variations from a very level floor (e.g. fill in deeper spots, a limit on how much it can drop over a distance).    When we were checking out flooring, I even saw one that said you had to fill in the grout lines if you were putting it over tile even though that grout surface is no where near the max dip and valley allowances most allow for - some will not allow installing over tile at all.
Carpets get worn unevenly so that flooring is not level, nor is it firm - it doesn't give the needed support and the install instructions typically say do not put over carpet.
Translation the flooring product can’t take the flexing stresses a carpet/unlevel floor would create, it needs solid support underneath it.

Most laminate products specifically say do not use an underlayment (typically a thin waterproof sheeting to prevent moisture from coming up from the subfloor below - the plywood or cement - and getting to the laminate flooring).   They proudly say they have underlayment as part of the flooring (that dark underside that sort of looks like rubber but isn't).
However, some laminate flooring is rated for below grade (below ground like basements) and say a separate underlayment is ok (to prevent cement moisture problems from coming up to the laminate) even though they also have an underlayment built into the product.

Thickness matters.   If the top layer is too thin, it will come off over time easier with scratches, so you want a little thickness there. The thicker ones still look very thin but I was amazed first time I put it in one of my houses how durable it was. Same with the general thickness, thinner means more flexing than a thicker flooring.

There is specific flooring designed for “wet” rooms like bathrooms and kitchen. They used to say ok to install in bathroom/kitchen, these days they just typically list it as water resistant or water proof.   IMO, our entire LDs are a wet room (likely to have water and liquid food in all rooms) and the area is small enough it is worth it to pay the higher price for a laminate that is made to handle wet rooms. HOWEVER, be aware the distinction of water resistant or water proof applies to the flooring only (eg put a piece of waterproof flooring in a bucket of water and years later it can still look good). I care about the entire install being waterproof - as others said you don’t want mold and liquid food remnants growing under your flooring.

Some companies have a simple locking mechanism between the floor pieces and when I asked if it will keep water from going between the floor pieces, the answer was nope (this means liquids get between the pieces and under the floor). Some others have a fancy (my word) connection joint that makes it less likely any liquid will get between the pieces of flooring - often no guarantees but they will say it is not likely liquids will get under the floor - while also saying don't leave standing water on the floor.

For wet rooms, once waterproof flooring came out, the standard install has been to leave the normal required gap between the floor and wall - typically 1/4" off the top of my head, changes for large flooring installs. This allows the floor to shrink & grow small amounts with temperature and maybe moisture changes. For a wet room floor, this gap is then filled with silicon (stays soft and flexible forever), which allows the floor to flex but prevents water from going between the floor and wall to get inside the wall or under the laminate flooring.   Molding goes on top to make it pretty (covers that ugly silicon gap). And again wipe up any spills ASAP.

However when we shopped for flooring I noticed some things have changed (e.g. some advertised no acclimation was needed - where you put the flooring in the room you would install it in for a couple days so it became the same temperature/moisture as the room). There is a lot more companies offering waterproof/water resistant company than 5 years ago and the specific board layers are varied across brands. So installs also might have changed for wet rooms. Read the specific products installation instructions and ask the company if things are not clear (especially if they don't say how to prevent water from flowing in the crack between the floor and wall).

Another issue to be handled is those bolts that come up thru the floor, that were well covered by the carpet padding. Others have taken off some of the back of the flooring to make room for the bolts to stick up.

What we are doing: We choose a good quality water proof brand that was not too thin and had a more complex (fancy) connection between pieces - so designed better to keep liquids from going between the boards.
We choose a laminate flooring that does allow for subgrade (below ground) installs so an underlayment could be used. We choose a 6mm cork underlayment which means we can cut out around those bolts and just put the floating floor over it (no cutting in to the laminate flooring, it retains it's strength). The underlayment also gives some protection from cold/heat temperatures, some cushioning, and some soundproofing.   That thicker underlayment says it needs a floor with a specific minimum thickness (the one we choose is thicker than that number). I believe we are exceeding by a bit the thickness of underlayment the floor says to use but if it is we are going to push that because we are choosing that vs digging out the back of the laminate pieces that go over the bolts. Since it is cork, not foam (not as easily compressed) and our distances across the floor is small, I think we will be fine.
Basically we are making the best choices in an imperfect world (not laminate flooring designed for RV use).

Jane

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #5 – June 11, 2020, 09:49:25 am

Jane, wow what an exhaustive treatise on a usually boring subject. I went through all of the above thoughts when I was trying to decide what to put down. I really wanted to use the interlocking LVP luxury vinyl plank product. But my flooring company advised against it in an RV due to the heat unless it was glued down. And my flooring installer told me he would use regular sheet vinyl and glue it down. That is what I finally used. What a job as you have to buy a 12ft wide by 30ft long roll. But I have a large space in a warehouse and we cut it and then hauled it inside. He then trimmed the vinyl so expertly you cant see any gap to the wall. I went in and used acyrlic caulk (never silicon) to hold edges down if a problem. As to the bolts, we trimmed around the bolts and then I used a large fender washer with an interior diameter that just fit over the bolts heads and pounded them in place. I then painted the bolt head and washer to match the vinyl. Crude but works and bolts were in places that arent an issue for walking over. I

After two years here in the AZ heat I have had no issues with the sheet lino. But in the meantime there have been a number of very good lvp products that have come out and I dont know what I would use now. The sheet goods only work if you have a great installer, like on my crew.

As to the concern about taking up the existing carpet and lino, it took me about 2 hours of moderate effort to take out the carpet and jillions of staples. BTW, it was nasty under the carpet as expected. Solid flooring is much easier to keep clean but also much noisier when driving.

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #6 – June 11, 2020, 11:26:52 am

Quote from: Jane and Scott - June 10, 2020, 10:49:42 pm

Karen and Liam - we are doing this same project right now. I want an easy to clean floor so a laminate floor fits better for me than carpeting. Below is some general info on laminate flooring in sticks and bricks homes, and how we are adapting to putting it in an RV (not what it is designed for).

Jane, this is an excellent resource for those considering laminate flooring. Thanks for sharing.

Chris

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #7 – June 11, 2020, 03:21:05 pm

Paul - lol I should have warned ahead of time it was a long post.
Interesting way to handle the bolt issue.

You could get tiny murals painted on them and call them a wonderful "feature".
Under our carpet was not that bad surprisingly. Tons of dirt in the carpet and padding, but the plywood subflooring was in good condition.

I considered (for a very brief period) the sheet vinyl but we wanted more cushion.
I think you are fulltime in your RV, so if the inside of the RV temperature works for you, the floor should be fine (cold floors on winter nights when the house heater is turned down to save money, and hot floors on hot summer nights when the Air Conditioner temp is turned up to save money while people are at work).

Storing it in very hot or cold (no climate control and too uncomfortable to be in for long) would be more of a concern. Someone could always ask a manufacturer if it could be install it in an "AZ Sun Room" - really an outdoor covered patio that is screened in - therefore similar to an RV if you had the RV vented when it was stored. Same "sun rooms" in cold climates but with no windows. Design quality really varies across the flooring.

I have found some good installers/sub contractors, a lot more not good, and a couple that looked good initially and turned out to be not very good. So I now talk to the manufacturer - a technical "engineer type person", to confirm things not clearly stated in the product documentation for a double check (verify what my installer says. Often installers don't have time to keep up with the latest products and they go by what they have done for decades (not moving with the changing times). So me doing a double check with someone good at the manufacturer works for me. When I did that last install 5 years ago, there was only one waterproof brand (at the big box stores) and talking to the manufacturers was very eye opening (water proof meant the floor not the subfloor underneath) - very worth the time and effort to do the call.

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #8 – June 12, 2020, 07:34:15 am

Jane & Scott,

In your treatise about your new flooring installation, the one detail you did not share was what brand and model of laminate you installed. Would you mind disclosing specifics?

Thanks,
Steve K

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #9 – June 12, 2020, 02:19:23 pm

Thanks Jane for your information. If I had put laminate down over the carpet I would have added 1/4 plywood and a substrait. Imagine the mess if water penetrated that floor. I think we will wait a little longer and investigate more about the idea of adding hydronic heat under it. Hydronic heat is one of my specialties and I am intrigued with figuring out how to do it in the Lazy Daze. I am currently working on finishing my son's tiniHouse (RVIA certified) forced air heat but I would like to do a hydroponic one on my next project.

Karen~Liam
98 ~ MB
NinA

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #10 – June 12, 2020, 03:05:38 pm

Quote from: Karen & Liam - June 12, 2020, 02:19:23 pm

I think we will wait a little longer and investigate more about the idea of adding hydronic heat under it. Hydronic heat is one of my specialties and I am intrigued with figuring out how to do it in the Lazy Daze. I am currently working on finishing my son's tiniHouse (RVIA certified) forced air heat but I would like to do a hydroponic one on my next project.

Hydronic heat is something I have thought about many times, usually on cold winter nights when my feet are cold.
If you are redoing your floor, this is the perfect time to do it, you would appreciate it for your frequent ski trips.

Small, circulating pumps, used for solar-powered houses, are available, the source of heated water is the issue.
The water heater is a fine source but it is inefficient and isn't up to the task of producing hot water continuously without burning excessive amounts of propane.
Have any ideas on the heat source, a mini-boiler perhaps?

Larry

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #11 – June 12, 2020, 03:26:44 pm

I know a guy who built a snowmobile trailer with a heated floor. He used a diesel fired engine block heater and it did the job quite nicely for him. It did take some tinkering to get things balanced out. Around here they use a domestic water heater on garages. RV water heaters, I don't think so.

Jon

Re: Laminate floor installed over Carpet

Reply #12 – June 12, 2020, 07:14:29 pm

Karen~Liam, the new plywood floor screwed down over carpet would give a good subfloor (assuming it went down pretty level), and if you made the entire flooring structure waterproof it should not leak water down.
I personally just wouldn't want the extra bulk there. And when you build up like that, you have to be concerned about if the raised floor gets in the way of cabinets/doors/door jambs (which are typically cut to accommodate the flooring going under them)

Steve, I am fine to share what we bought, but honestly color drove the choice a lot. There is a lot of choices out there these days - including glue down laminate planks. I will include that info in a new post in a day or two, and also put in some pictures of what I would use to choose flooring and show the difference in the fancy vs more simple interlocking, etc.

Jane

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