Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #50 – May 20, 2019, 03:53:00 pm As promised, I just called Progressive Dynamics and verified that those two 30 amp fuses should be installed. He seemed surprised that they were missing since 2011 and added, "I guess they were not needed for it to have worked all these years?" Nonetheless, when I delved further on their website, I found in their trouble shooting section for my model PD4655 instructions to remove these two 30 amp fuses to adequately test the DC voltage output of the house batteries and the DC voltage output of the converter. My guess is that, back in 2011, the installing technician got distracted or simply forgot to reinstall the two 30 amp fuses. Most importantly, they are installed now, the reverse protection circuit is protected and everything works as it should. I am smiling!Best,Gary 6 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #51 – May 20, 2019, 04:39:17 pm Larry mentioned, “And the reason why the Factory battery switch has frequent problems is that it isn't sealed, the switch's contact are exposed to the elements and corrode away. The contacts slowly start failing and can cause all sort of strange electrical issues“.Looking at our battery disconnect switch that LD installed, I did notice that the back of the switch is exposed to the potential corrosive effects of a “wet” battery set up. As we have AGM batteries, there should be no such concern for us, I would think.That being said, I wonder how effective “Liquid Electrical Tape” would be as a deterrent from corrosion. How difficult would the “tape” be to remove if the disconnect switch needed to be replaced? It seems like a practical solution to the corrosion issue and may also be useful where exposed wire connections are in areas of potential shorts.Kent
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #52 – May 20, 2019, 04:56:41 pm Quote from: RonB - May 20, 2019, 01:36:13 pm Despite Andy's aversion to those set screw attached circuit breakers,(RKURCK) they are not unsafe. That is industry standard, as evidenced by the connectors along the top of that fuse panel board. The image of multi strand copper wire being crushed inside a hole by a set screw is everywhere. Larry, I, Terry Tanner (Techsnoz site) have all advocated a 'every few years' maintenance procedure to retighten those set screw connections to keep them secure. Spade lug connections also need the nuts snugged up. Details in the archives. RonBOnce every two years, I disconnect all electrical power, including solar, next opening up the Power Center and tightening every possible lug, on both the 120-VAC side as well as the 12-VDC side.Of concern are the positive and negative lugs, from the coach battery and the converter.Through the years, several members have suffered burned Power Centers, primarily on the 120-VAC side, caused by loose lugs.Larry
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #53 – May 20, 2019, 05:08:04 pm Most importantly, they are installed now, the reverse protection circuit is protected and everything works as it should. I am smiling!I still don't get it. Can somebody explain how this reverse protection circuit works? For years it operated with an open circuit (i.e. no fuses installed). And now it apparently works with a closed circuit with fuses installed. How does this protection work and what would blow the fuse and to what effect?Mike S.
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #54 – May 20, 2019, 05:08:25 pm Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - May 20, 2019, 04:39:17 pmThat being said, I wonder how effective “Liquid Electrical Tape” would be as a deterrent from corrosion. How difficult would the “tape” be to remove if the disconnect switch needed to be replaced? It seems like a practical solution to the corrosion issue and may also be useful where exposed wire connections are in areas of potential shorts.The battery switch's shaft needs an internal o-ring to seal it, something liquid electrical tape cannot provide.Even AGMs can leak small amounts of liquids that need to be washed off. Battery compartment can get quite dirty and need occasional rinsing, washing allows water to enter the switch, entering along the horizonal shaft.When washing, covering the Factory switch with a plastic bag is recommended.Larry
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #55 – May 20, 2019, 05:13:45 pm Thanks Larry,So that begs the question...”Why not bag the switch” even if you’re not cleaning the battery compartment?Kent
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #56 – May 20, 2019, 06:17:32 pm Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - May 20, 2019, 05:13:45 pmSo that begs the question...”Why not bag the switch” even if you’re not cleaning the battery compartment?With AGMs, it should be fine but with lead-acid batteries, I would be concerned that a permanent bag would contain any rising fumes and increase the rate of damage. If using a bag, leave its bottom partially open to allow any trapped water a way out.Larry
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #57 – May 20, 2019, 07:04:54 pm To try to explain the answer I got from the Progressive Dynamic Tech Support to Mike S.:I agree that the explanation given by the Tech (Alan, I recall, at PD telephone # 269-781-4241) left me a little wanting. My understanding is that the fuses serve to protect the converter in case the house batteries are installed incorrectly. That is what the installation instructions stated. As I said in my previous message, the manual states to remove them both while testing the voltages of the battery and converter against the ground on the board. This is to give a more accurate reading. They are to be reinstalled after testing, mine were not.Maybe someone with higher technical understanding can explain it better than Alan did to me? I don't know if I was getting the full 55 amp charge without the two fuses in place for the last 7 years. I am still working so I don't get to take it on many trips and when I do, I seldom boondock except for a night or two. The two Trojan 105's I have now were new in 2017 and, of course, I have the watering system. I called Progressive Dynamics twice and got the same technical advisor. I explained the situation thoroughly and told him I had the model number PD 4655 Intellicharger (converter) installed in 2011 and he wasn't able to give me more of an explanation. I didn't choose to call a third time. The number to PD is listed above for those who wish more information.Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #58 – May 20, 2019, 07:38:46 pm Ok, without really looking at this (e.g. just off the top of my head), if the fuses are to protect when the cables are swapped....Wouldn't that mean they are on the negative/ground wires, not the positive?To protect the converter/charger/power center when a charge from the battery comes in on the wrong path.So... if you were missing the fuses, no problem UNLESS someone installed your battery incorrectly as there is not a surge of electricity coming down that line & thru the fuses.It is like the older house wiring (1950s and earlier) that is missing ground wires. Many houses still don't have ground wire - Seattle had a ton of them all built at the turn of the century and up thru the 50s. People just illegally changed the outlets/added plugs to allow themselves to plug in 3 prong electrical devices. They still work, just missing something we now consider very important for safety.Or the fact that the electric code for stick and brick homes now require you to ground your box where cable & telephone come into the house.As long as you don't get a lightening strike or some other instance where you need electricity to go down that ground wire, then you don't miss the ground wires.I grew up being told don't talk on the phone during a storm as lightening could hit the phone wires. I thought that was nonsense and didn't really pay attention to it (or follow it). After all I never heard of anyone having problems talking on the phone during storms.But now there is statues (Electrical codes put into law by the states) that says you MUST have a grounded wire on your phone box where it enters the house. I bet because there were enough people that got hurt by lightening hitting the phone/cable wires that the committees that create those electrical codes said we need to require it and agreed to make it a law.While I have never actively used ground wires to my knowledge, I do want them in all my electricity!!I have never had a stick and brick insurance claim either, but I have always had it - just in case.Jane 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #59 – May 20, 2019, 07:58:48 pm Thank you Jane. That explanation makes sense. Now, why are their two fuses (perhaps one on the negative and one on the positive lines?) and why should they be removed to more accurately measure the DC voltage? Presumably that circuit adds extra load which affects the measured voltage.Mike S. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #60 – May 21, 2019, 12:09:18 am Two fused - ground and negative? But I am not sure it has both those - 12v fixtures in our LD have only 2 wires (hot and not hot) and negative can be used as ground (an electrical engineer I worked with was struggling to understand house electricity because in his world ground and neutral were the same function).I have no idea why it would affect voltage reading - those spots are in a board so maybe a question for Ron as maybe it is related to circuit boards more than just wiring and electricity?JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #61 – May 21, 2019, 02:39:27 am Mike, I didn't say but there should be a breaker between your battery positive line and your converter/controller - Progressive highly recommends (e.g. told me about 5 times) that doing this protects their equipment. They told me to choose one with amps above your charger amps but not too high (too high and it missed things it should catch).
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #62 – May 21, 2019, 01:47:29 pm Quote from: schafir - May 20, 2019, 01:52:22 pm "All PD4600 Series Converter Replacement units require (2) 30 AMP fuses which must be installed to distribute DC power." They were both not installed in my original installation back in 2011! "If the 30 amp fuses were not installed all these years and the system was working, what do the fuses protect? A blown fuse creates an open circuit, same as it not being there. I must be missing something obvious here.Mike S.I'm going to go waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy out on a limb here and take a stab at this, mostly because it has me concerned if I'm right. If I recall correctly, you mentioned a) that the fuses should be removed to check the voltage output of the converter, and b) that the fuses were involved with reverse polarity protection. My first thought was that the fuses were proprietary and contained diodes since diodes are often used in providing reverse polarity protection AND would cause a voltage drop of about .7 volts in the circuit. "Isolator" diodes are often seen when installing the connection between an RV and toad. After looking at the pictures, these don't appear to be anything other than a standard fuse. That said, it would make sense to me for one of the fuses to be in series with the convert and battery (tying the two together) and the other fuse to be on the negative battery lead, although I'm not sure why they would want to do that. In any event, if the panel was working before without any fuses, it seems reasonable that the installer figured a way to DEFEAT this safety design. Your fuses may now be doing nothing at all. If I'm correct I suspect the installer directly connected the battery and converter, bypassing the fuses altogether. I hope I'm wrong. There could also have been a design change we are unaware of that negates the use of the fuses. If it were my panel, I think I would investigate further. Just my 2 cents worth.KenPS The question remains of why to pull the fuses to check the converter output. My guess would be simply to isolate it from any loads that could cause the voltage to drop. The open circuit voltage would be an easy measurement to compare one unit to the next.
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #63 – May 21, 2019, 02:28:05 pm "I just called Progressive Dynamics and verified that those two 30 amp fuses should be installed."Believing that I have the same unit from PD as the one under discussion all I can say is that the two 30amp fuses have been there since the late Mike Sylvester installed the unit at one of the Albuquerque Balloon Fiestas some years ago. Mike was a Certified Tech and I have trusted his work without question (God Rest His Soul). And all those years have been without issue as regards the power panel. 3 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #64 – May 21, 2019, 03:34:24 pm I agree with you Steve. I put in the two standard ATC 30 amp fuses from my spares. The PD instructions made no note of proprietary "special" fuses; it simply stated that they should be removed to test the installation. If there had been a special fuse to be installed that came with the unit, common sense tells me that it would certainly be noted in their instruction manual.Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #65 – May 21, 2019, 04:11:50 pm Quote from: jakester1201 - May 20, 2019, 07:04:54 pmMaybe someone with higher technical understanding can explain it better than Alan did to me? I don't know if I was getting the full 55 amp charge without the two fuses in place for the last 7 years. When installing a larger converter, replacing the stock 45-amp converter, I remove the two 30-amp fuses and add a larger, inline fuse to take advantage of the greater amperage flow. The 30-amp fuses were there originally to protect the stock converter and to provide reverse polarity protection.New converter | Ready for installation. 6-gauge output wires… | FlickrA 70 amp inline Maxi fuse replaced the 30-amp fuses mounted on distribution board. The Maxi fuse is behind the power Center's coverPerhaps your LD is wired this way and would explain why it has operated for years without the two 30-amp fusesLarry 2 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #66 – May 21, 2019, 04:12:50 pm To update this thread to a final conclusion:My curiosity got the best of me so I called Progressive Dynamics for a third time and spoke with Dennis in technical support. He was much more helpful than the first technician. The two fuses are necessary to protect the converter from the improper connection of the batteries and they are not proprietary in nature. I had stated earlier that without them, perhaps I wasn't getting a full charge from my converter. In reality, I wasn't getting any charge from my converter to the batteries. I explained that the technician that installed my converter 7 years ago is no longer in business to which he replied, "I can certainly understand that!" I then asked if there was a way to bypass the fuses and wire directly from the converter to the battery and he responded, "That would not be appropriate and would defeat the purpose of the fuses. The fuses must be installed for you to charge your battery from the converter."Obviously, I am a low consumption user and have relied on my lone solar panel and engine alternator to keep my house batteries charged. My engine has kept my house batteries sufficiently charged for my weekend trips. Since I still work Monday through Fridays and only take shorter trips, I didn't notice. It is working like a champ now and I certainly have learned a lot! Thanks to all...…………………………..Safe travels,Gary 4 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #67 – May 21, 2019, 04:35:21 pm After a little research, here is what I think is going on with the 30A fuses: I have the stock Parallax 7345 converter in my '06 LD and it does have the two 30A fuses installed. I confirmed that these fuses are indeed there for reverse battery polarity protection. It actually says this on the sticker on the converter, but LD covered this up with the wiring diagram specific to my coach. I think Ken was on the right track except with his diode theory but instead of the diodes being contained in a special fuse, they are built into the controller board itself and the diodes are what provides the protection (I still don't understand why there are two circuits and two fuses though; perhaps the design of the DC part of the converter uses two separate 12V circuits). The function of a diode is to allow current in normal operation. If the polarity is accidentally reversed, then the diode protects the circuit by not allowing current in the opposite direction, thus protecting the converter. However, as mentioned, diodes in normal operation have a voltage drop of .7v (for a semiconductor diode). Thus, in order to get correct voltage measurements, you would remove the fuses to isolate the diode circuit and remove this voltage drop. I think but am not 100% sure that the fuses are not the actual protection mechanism; the diodes are. The fuses are only there to enable accurate voltage measurements when testing.If this is correct then Gary's converter did not have reverse polarity protection all these years without the fuses installed.My two cents and enough of my day spent pondering it Mike S. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #68 – May 21, 2019, 04:48:02 pm OK, I think I had it backwards. This article advocating a different product called a Power Fault Protector describes how most reverse polarity circuits work:" Ironically most equipment has some form of reverse polarity protection built in. Usually in the form of a diode and fuse. The 'theory' is that if a reverse polarity fault occurs, the diode will conduct, short the power supply to ground and cause the fuse to blow - thus protecting your equipment."Reverse polarity damage to 12/24 Volt electronicsSo the diode on the board only conducts when reverse polarity is detected and the fuse blows when power is shorted to ground".Mike S. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #69 – May 21, 2019, 05:26:26 pm Gary - Dennis is THE person to talk to. Extremely knowledgeable and loves talking about how their products work and configurations. I thought you were talking to him. i was told he is the one real technical expert there. But then my questions typically exceed the first level support no matter what product. The people that answer the phone are good for basic questions but technical stuff Dennis is the guy.JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #70 – May 21, 2019, 05:28:21 pm Mike - nice description. JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #71 – May 21, 2019, 05:59:12 pm All of you are great with your suggestions, thoughts and contrary viewpoints. Mike S., and Jane's thoughts of diodes were thought provoking. Agreed, Dennis is the "go to guy" there at PD.Larry, your idea of an alternative installation intrigued me to the degree that I even asked Dennis if there was an alternative way of installing their converter. It is hard to believe that I went 7 years without noticing the two missing 30 amp fuses not making a difference. Therefore, I delved further into my "mystery converter installation" and pulled the ventilation screen from under the sink to expose the back of the converter. I took a couple of pictures and attached them to this message below. As you can see, I found a 60 amp inline fuse attached to a positive large gauge wire and marked it in the photo. I called Vince at the factory and asked about the purpose of this 60 amp fuse in that area and he replied that it was not something that the factory had installed. That leads me to believe that my original installer didn't follow the written directions from Progressive Dynamics and installed my converter in the manner that Larry described! I think Larry gets BINGO on this mystery. To confirm this, when I get home, I will test the charging voltages across my batteries, with and without the two 30 amp fuses installed and see if there is a difference. I will post the results when I get home.Best,Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #72 – May 21, 2019, 06:48:44 pm Larry Wade was correct in his description on how my converter was wired 8 years ago. See his last message on this thread for the details. I pulled both 30 amp fuses in the fuse box and tested my battery voltages with my generator running and they read 14.32 volts. Putting them back in made no difference in the readings. Mystery solved and I learned a lot. Thanks everyone.Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #73 – May 21, 2019, 11:34:13 pm Gary, just as a measure, make sure all those connections are tight on that ground bus ( splice) that shows up in your picture.Just the kind of spot a loose connection could show up and give a problem some time.Jon
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #74 – May 22, 2019, 12:58:18 am I will. Thanks Jon.Gary
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