What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

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January 14, 2018, 11:47:15 pm

We were testing some of our items to see what they used for electricity and found something odd.

We used a standard killawatt measuring device - P3 International Kill A Watt EZ Meter-P4460 - The Home Depot

We used an adapter so we could plug the LD into a 15/20 amp plug of the above device - GE 30 Amp to 20 Amp Adapter Plug-AD3020 - The Home Depot

No lights, not using any appliances or heater or anything, nothing plugged into any outlets.
Fridge on propane.
Tested for an hour and it showed 10kw used in one hours (that = 10000 watts or at 12v 833 amps used for the hour.

This can't be right or you all could not run your LD on the batteries you use.
Note, we had previously tested two plus in devices and they came out to what we expected, though we used an extension cord to test not the LD plug.

What is using all that KW?
Is there something unknown going on like charging the battery that is eating all that KW up?

Thanks,
Jane

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #1 – January 15, 2018, 12:12:11 am

When plugged in, the converter is on, keeping the battery charged and making up for the 12-volt power used by the refrigerator's control board, the propane detector and the radio (unless it has been powered down). The microwave's display is also powered.
If the battery is low, the converter can use quite a bit of power.
In this situation the 12-volt draw will range from about one half to one amp.

Either the meter is defective or you are reading the the wrong scale on the meter .

Larry

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #2 – January 15, 2018, 12:47:22 am

Reset was done and even if it wasn't previous item tested was .08 kw total (over 12 hour period). Device accurately tested things at low watt usage but it might have a problem with higher watt usage.
We did forget to unplug the microwave and there is the cab radio - I would expect that to be on the cab battery but you never know.
Batteries in coach are shot so converter working hard to charge batteries sounds like a good guess.

Throwing all 120V breakers is a good idea, I will try that - but will that stop the converter from trying to charge the batteries?
We will do a test tonight.

What we are really trying to do is determine a small cheap battery that will get us thru a couple days of dry camping as we are still working on designing our long term and expensive battery/solar needs but want to do short off grid trips now.
Since we have been tent campers, we don't need much - we are used to no electricity

. We think a 50ah would be fine but want to be sure.

We are most concerned about the fridge on propane so it keeps things cold without us having to mess with ice. We also want to make sure the propane heater and propane burners on stove do not need battery (or if they do how much). And be aware of any vampire items.

For hot water and water pump we can use the generator once a day - do showers and dishes all at once.

Thanks, Jane

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #3 – January 15, 2018, 02:11:30 am

Note that kW is a power measurement. If after one hour it actually read 10 kW, that is an instantaneous power reading. To read the energy consumed in the hour's time, it would read in kWh. So, I don't know what is going on in your case, but if the reading was not in kWh units, it does not give you the information you seek.

Steve

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #4 – January 15, 2018, 02:12:56 am

Quote from: JandS2 - January 15, 2018, 12:47:22 am

Throwing all 120V breakers is a good idea, I will try that - but will that stop the converter from trying to charge the batteries?
We will do a test tonight.

What we are really trying to do is determine a small cheap battery that will get us thru a couple days of dry camping as we are still working on designing our long term and expensive battery/solar needs but want to do short off grid trips now.
Since we have been tent campers, we don't need much - we are used to no electricity . We think a 50ah would be fine but want to be sure.

We are most concerned about the fridge on propane so it keeps things cold without us having to mess with ice. We also want to make sure the propane heater and propane burners on stove do not need battery (or if they do how much). And be aware of any vampire items.

The converter has its own circuit breaker.

A 50-amp/hour battery will only provide 25-amp/hours of usable power, before the battery needs recharging.
That's not much when you consider the refrigerator can use 12 amp/hours, or more, a day.

The stove and most catalytic heaters do not use 12-volt power. The water heater uses a minimal amount of power unless it is left on all the time.
The furnace is an energy hog.

Larry

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #5 – January 15, 2018, 02:54:31 am

Steve sorry I was not clear. Yes the reading is kWh.

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Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #6 – January 15, 2018, 03:02:51 am

Larry, we wil have the fridge on propane so it should just use the little bit for the circuit board, right? I would think that is a lot less than 12 amps but would need to test it without the converter on.
I will look for that converter breaker/fuse.

Same with propane heater - might have something at start time but should be mostly if not all propane I think.

Water heatwe can be used onoy with generator but yes i think that should be all or mostly propane.
Water pump used only with generator.

Jane

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Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #7 – January 15, 2018, 08:25:53 am

Quote from: JandS2 - January 15, 2018, 12:47:22 am

... and there is the cab radio - I would expect that to be on the cab battery but you never know.

In our '09 LD the cab radio operates off the coach batteries until the engine is running according to our manual. I don't know when this feature became available. Hope this helps.

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #8 – January 15, 2018, 12:09:50 pm

Hi Jane and Scott. Unless you have a catalytic heater, your propane space heater requires a fan to distribute hot air to the vents inside the coach. That (in my coach) takes about 2.5 amps to run. Not too bad, just a bit more than a single incandescent ceiling light (about 1.9 amps). The 26.5' may have higher rated heaters and/or bigger fans. Buying standard sized 'golf cart' batteries at a big-box store similar to what your motorhome came with, would be the best way to go. You can add all of the solar and controller, way more expensive, even at today's prices, and keep the 'cheap' batteries. They will get along until you decide if you even need to upgrade the batteries to AGM, or add more batteries to the mix. I can't see why you are going to such lengths to have a 'stunted' non standard motorhome. In addition the LP detector can use 2-3 amphours per day and is required. You'll notice there is no on/off switch. RonB

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #9 – January 15, 2018, 12:16:51 pm

Hi Jane. I forgot to mention that most places you camp, generator running, while allowed, is generally unappreciated by your neighbors. With solar, largely unneeded. In 19 years I have a generator with 110 hours or so, mostly maintenance. RonB

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #10 – January 15, 2018, 12:36:44 pm

Quote from: JandS2 - January 15, 2018, 12:47:22 am

Reset was done and even if it wasn't previous item tested was .08 kw total (over 12 hour period). Device accurately tested things at low watt usage but it might have a problem with higher watt usage.

At this point, it seems possible that some outside influence - power surge or voltage spike - did a number on the Kill-a-watt. I suggest you repeat the test, through a surge protector plugstrip, and monitor the increase in kWh occasionally to see if it spikes at some point.

Steve

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #11 – January 15, 2018, 12:56:03 pm

Jane, I appreciate your curiosity about a minimal stop-gap battery to power your needs while designing your ultimate system.

Once you know you have a good 12v setup, meaning no shorts or other power usages that will drain the battery, it sounds like you camp similar to us. Of course, remember to size your new temporary battery so you are planning to use only half of its capacity, or if you see this battery as a short term disposable item, go ahead and use it down to 20%. So if you buy a 100Ah battery you could use as much as 80Ah before recharging. This would severely reduce the battery’s lifespan.

We have 220Amp hours of lead acid batteries in our LD that keep us going for 4-7 days, depending on our use of the furnace. We also camp in a van, with a 100Ah battery, and have never used more than 10Ah in a night (TV binging). We can go 5-7 days without charging in the van, which has less than .2 Ah draw from monitors, etc.

Good luck!

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #12 – January 15, 2018, 03:51:28 pm

I agree with RonB. Get the 12 volt couch system on line with a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries. Trouble shoot the systems. I can dry camp a couple of days until the kids show up with their computers needing charged.
My super start golf cart batteries are about $250 exchanged 1 year warranty.
For the last year the LD has been my daughters sleeping quarters using the golf cart batteries and 200 watts of solar.

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #13 – January 15, 2018, 03:59:57 pm

I'm going to throw this out there-
A lot of the solar places and battery shops around me sell "reconditioned" batteries for much cheaper than a new battery from a big-box store. Often these are from fleets and other industrial applications and were replaced before they were out of warranty or failed. You could grab a couple replacements that mimic roughly the Ah capacity and physical footprint of what you're ultimately planning. Chances are, they'll get you through quite a few weekends without much worry about amp draw.

Check around- you may find a place that offers some sort of warranty and a decent price.

Just an idea.

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #14 – January 15, 2018, 06:04:13 pm

Quote from: rodneyhelfrich - January 15, 2018, 03:51:28 pm

I agree with RonB. Get the 12 volt couch system on line with a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries. Trouble shoot the systems. I can dry camp a couple of days until the kids show up with their computers needing charged.
My super start golf cart batteries are about $250 exchanged 1 year warranty.
For the last year the LD has been my daughters sleeping quarters using the golf cart batteries and 200 watts of solar.

For the last year the LD has been my daughters sleeping quarters

Why didn't I think of that when I still had 3 teens at home?

Chris

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #15 – January 15, 2018, 06:42:30 pm

Chris,
The daughter won by default, the grand children got her room!

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #16 – January 16, 2018, 03:21:16 am

Alaska Mike, that is an interesting idea.

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #17 – January 16, 2018, 06:10:05 pm

Quote from: Alaska Mike - January 15, 2018, 03:59:57 pm

I'm going to throw this out there-
A lot of the solar places and battery shops around me sell "reconditioned" batteries for much cheaper than a new battery from a big-box store. Often these are from fleets and other industrial applications and were replaced before they were out of warranty or failed. You could grab a couple replacements that mimic roughly the Ah capacity and physical footprint of what you're ultimately planning. Chances are, they'll get you through quite a few weekends without much worry about amp draw.

Check around- you may find a place that offers some sort of warranty and a decent price.

Just an idea.

generally, "reconditioned" batteries are batteries that a customer brought in when they bought a new one, assuming it was bad, only to find they had some other issue (in addition to mikes above scenario). the shop checks it out and if there are no bad cells, they just recharge them and sell them as "reconditioned". not a bad deal as long as long as they don't have too many years on them.

this was one of my first jobs out of high school...

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #18 – January 18, 2018, 12:26:35 am

Ok, I got more testing done tonight.

It turns out we have a nonstock converter charger maybe a converter charger inverter. Vince at lazy days confirmed they didn’t put this up.

It is an energenius 3200. The first owner put a whole slew of upgrades in the first year or two after he bought the RV, and the early 90s. So likely was put in then. I have tons of manuals but nothing for that.

There is no breaker to turn the converter on or off. There is a button but pushing it doesn’t seem to make any difference.
Testing with only the main breaker on shows it’s hooked up to Shore power and it’s charging or trying to charge. And all other breakers turned off it is pulling 10kw per hour,
Turn the main breaker off nothing shows 0 kilowatt hours.

So I think that phantom charge is the converter trying to charge batteries that are no good .

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #19 – January 18, 2018, 02:41:04 am

Hi Jane. The maximum power you can feed your motorhome is 30 Amps at 125 Volts AC. That is what your cord can handle, That is the most a Lazy Daze can accept. 30 times 125 is 3,750 watts or .375 kilowatt hours per hour. So your measured 10 KW hours in one hour, can't possibly happen. RonB

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #20 – January 18, 2018, 03:56:06 am

Good point, although the decimal point is off - 3.75 kWh per hour.

Steve

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #21 – January 18, 2018, 02:02:18 pm

"it should just use the little bit for the circuit board, right? I would think that is a lot less than 12 amps..."

Not 12 amps, but 12 amp hours per night.

Like you, I used to think that the fridge's electronic controller board shouldn't be using more than a trickle of power when the fridge is running on propane. But then I did some testing and found out that when the fridge's burner is on, the solenoid valve that allows propane to flow is drawing about an amp. (Water heaters and furnaces are similar.) So Larry's estimate sounds about right. And if perchance the "anti-condensation" heater strip in the door is on, then the power consumption will be even higher, 24/7.

Nevertheless, I agree that your Energenius power unit trying to charge bad batteries is the likely culprit. For what it's worth, here's a link to download the owner's manual for that unit, which I found online. (Energenius apparently folded up many years ago.)

Re: What is using electricity when everything is turned off?

Reply #22 – January 18, 2018, 02:15:28 pm

Quote from: Andy Baird - January 18, 2018, 02:02:18 pm

"it should just use the little bit for the circuit board, right? I would think that is a lot less than 12 amps"
I used to think that m,yself, until I did some testing and found out that when the fridge's burner is running, the solenoid valve that allows propane to flow is drawing about an amp. (Water heaters and furnaces are probably about the same.) So Larry's estimate sounds about right. And if perchance the "anti-condensation" heater strip in the door is on, then the power consumption will be even higher.

The refrigerator, even when running on propane, is a major energy consumer, 12-amp/hours of daily consumption is average with even higher consumption in warm weather, due to the increased time the gas solenoid is powered and flowing propane.

Late model Dometics do not have a switch to turn off the "anti-condensation" heater strip. The only way to turn it off is to pull the 2-amp fuse, on the control board, which also provides power to the refrigerator's interior light.
The heater strip is useful in high humidity areas but isn't needed in dry climates.

Larry

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January 14, 2018, 11:47:15 pm

Reply #1 – January 15, 2018, 12:12:11 am

Reply #2 – January 15, 2018, 12:47:22 am

Reply #3 – January 15, 2018, 02:11:30 am

Reply #4 – January 15, 2018, 02:12:56 am

Reply #5 – January 15, 2018, 02:54:31 am

Reply #6 – January 15, 2018, 03:02:51 am

Reply #7 – January 15, 2018, 08:25:53 am

Reply #8 – January 15, 2018, 12:09:50 pm

Reply #9 – January 15, 2018, 12:16:51 pm

Reply #10 – January 15, 2018, 12:36:44 pm

Reply #11 – January 15, 2018, 12:56:03 pm

Reply #12 – January 15, 2018, 03:51:28 pm

Reply #13 – January 15, 2018, 03:59:57 pm

Reply #14 – January 15, 2018, 06:04:13 pm

Reply #15 – January 15, 2018, 06:42:30 pm

Reply #16 – January 16, 2018, 03:21:16 am

Reply #17 – January 16, 2018, 06:10:05 pm

Reply #18 – January 18, 2018, 12:26:35 am

Reply #19 – January 18, 2018, 02:41:04 am

Reply #20 – January 18, 2018, 03:56:06 am

Reply #21 – January 18, 2018, 02:02:18 pm

Reply #22 – January 18, 2018, 02:15:28 pm

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