Window change September 17, 2016, 02:21:30 pm When considering the model years for a purchase of an LD, I note that in 2003 there was a change in the window spec ( Thermopane-style (air gap) windows replace laminated windows). I would appreciate input as to whether this made a tangible difference in the heat/cool inside. Thanks, Matt
Re: Window change Reply #1 – September 17, 2016, 02:55:38 pm Quote from: Overlander - September 17, 2016, 02:21:30 pmWhen considering the model years for a purchase of an LD, I note that in 2003 there was a change in the window spec ( Thermopane-style (air gap) windows replace laminated windows). I would appreciate input as to whether this made a tangible difference in the heat/cool inside. Thanks, MattWe have an 06 and while I can't comment on insulating issues there is one issue to think about. We now have three fogged windows. LD's solution is to replace the entire unit at a cost of $1,000+ per window. I have been looking into repairs but can't get a satisfactory answer on what the businesses do to insure no leaks after they reinstall them.Jim
Re: Window change Reply #2 – September 17, 2016, 03:28:28 pm You would do well to search the LDO archives under "fogged Windows". There is a lengthy discussion on the topic with some apparent success at about $250 a window for repairs.In regards to the dual pain Windows, our '15 RB has them and as far as I can tell they repel the temperature from outside quite well. You will notice some "warmth" if you lean against them or get very near to them, but it appears they do a decent job of insulation. One nice thing about them is the added privacy they provide due to their dark tint.Kent
Re: Window change Reply #3 – September 17, 2016, 04:01:59 pm Kent, I have done extensive research and posted quite a bit of it here. Prices range from $90 a window to $325 for repair based on my research. That said, as I indicated the problem always seems to be when we start discussing what they will do when reinstalling to protect against leaks.LD uses butyl tape in newer installations. I don't know what they used to use. Given the wood construction I want to be sure that the job is done properly. However, one person here chimed in on a previous conversation that they had LD replace the rear window and it leaked. So I guess you can't be sure of anyone's work.Anyway, I did a quick search following your comment but didn't find anything new. If you found a thread that details the work done including resealing I would love to read it. So, if you would please post a link.Jim
Re: Window change Reply #4 – September 17, 2016, 04:16:11 pm Jim,It would appear we were looking at the same thread from 8 months ago. Just now realized you were a major contributor to the thread at that time.That being said, have you not had your issues resolved at this time? As my rig is less than a year old and I plan way ahead for these types of issues, I would be interested in what preventative steps might be taken to prevent this issue.I've had enough with foggy daze in my life and look forward to clear horizons.Kent
Re: Window change Reply #5 – September 17, 2016, 04:51:25 pm We owned a 1983 LD and now own a 2003, with the dual pane windows. we noticed little difference in the insulation value. Both windows have aluminum frames, which pass a lot of heat and cold. What we did noticed was the definite reduction in outside noises. Not sure, at this point, if they were an upgrade over the previous safety glass,Like many others, our 2003 has a fogged window..Larry
Re: Window change Reply #6 – September 17, 2016, 04:59:15 pm Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - September 17, 2016, 04:16:11 pmJim,That being said, have you not had your issues resolved at this time? As my rig is less than a year old and I plan way ahead for these types of issues, I would be interested in what preventative steps might be taken to prevent this issue.KentWe have procrastinated trying to decide on taking a chance with repair or dropping the money for replacement. There is an outfit in Oregon that I can't recall right now that planned on offering replacement glass that is not thermal pane. When I spoke with them they claimed that they were going to offer it in a dark tint although who knows if it is as dark as what we have.Broken seals in windows happen in homes as well and I have never heard of a way to avoid it. I don't know if it simply poor construction or not. Of course in the case of an RV it is frequently exposed to tropical storm force winds or higher.Jim
Re: Window change Reply #7 – September 17, 2016, 05:01:47 pm Only have experience with the thermal pane so can't help. We do have a small window near the sink that is fogged. The rear big picture window was showing signs of fogging which was disconcerting. Went outside and noticed a spot where the rubber gasket had settled. Soooo, took out my trusty Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure and put some on the spot. It immediately settled/disappeared so placed enough in there to the point where no more disappearing occurred.I may be blowing sunshine up my own wazooie but I have not noticed any more fogging. I am hopeful. There are disadvantages to being 2,000 miles from the M'ship and the biggest one is not trusting anyone else to work on Ruby so each year I say a little prayer to the Saint of Rv'ing (still not sure who that is, Saint Edward?! LOL) that I get another season of camping in with no problems.One of these years we will retire and one of our first mega-trips will include a M'ship visit for major TLC.Dave 1 Likes
Re: Window change Reply #8 – September 17, 2016, 05:11:14 pm "As my rig is less than a year old and I plan way ahead for these types of issues, I would be interested in what preventative steps might be taken to prevent this issue.-----I don't know of any "preventive measures" to deter haze (or window leaks) other than making sure that the seal around the window frame doesn't leak, that the weep holes are kept clear, and that there is no "break" or damage to the sealant around the edges of the panes; AFAIK, that's the most vulnerable entry point for moisture. Once the pane seal is compromised and even the smallest amount of moisture enters between the panes, the fog creeps across the window; it's like looking through wax paper when the sun is on it!My rig is a 2003; that was the first year that LD used double pane windows; the sealant used apparently wasn't up to the job of remaining air tight. The inter-pane sealant on my LD has shrunken slightly, and also has hardened and developed tiny cracks. I hope that the sealant currently used between the panes is a much more efficient, proven product. I suppose that I may know fairly soon if sealant technology has improved, as the factory is scheduled to replace the fogged rear window in my 2003 TK in a few weeks. Many early dual pane window rigs have no fogging, but I've seen examples of hazing/fogging in models as late as 2008; I've seen none after that date. (There may be some, I just haven't seen them.) It would be interesting to know how many owners of post-2003 LDs, particularly those produced since 2008 (the latest model year in which I've observed fogging), and which models and years have experienced the problem. I suspect that most of the affected rigs would be TKs and/or MBs with the large rear windows, but, from my observations, this window is not the only one that is susceptible to hazing.I share Larry's take on the "thermal efficiency" of the dual pane windows; I'd just as soon have single pane safety glass!Joan 1 Likes
Re: Window change Reply #9 – September 17, 2016, 05:36:38 pm Quote from: JCT - September 17, 2016, 05:11:14 pmIt would be interesting to know how many owners of post-2003 LDs, particularly those produced since 2008 (the latest model year in which I've observed fogging), and which models and years have experienced the problem. I suspect that most of the affected rigs would be TKs and/or MBs with the large rear windows, but, from my observations, this window is not the only one that is susceptible to hazing. It would be interesting to know indeed! I've been following this thread with much interest as this is the first I've heard of this issue with the windows. I don't recall ever having this particular problem in my '85. Since I've always considered the large, tinted windows in the LD's one of it's major advantages, this issue gives me pause as I consider a future (used) purchase. How common is it?
Re: Window change Reply #10 – September 17, 2016, 05:37:32 pm Thanks Joan,I was just wondering if like a roof re-seal the Windows would be well cared for with this type of PM.Jim,I know nothing of these folks but they do service your area, I believe. Here's their link: RV Glass Solutions, Motorhome Side Window RepairBest of luck to all of us.Kent
Re: Window change Reply #11 – September 17, 2016, 05:40:42 pm Great input. I was focused on the thermal performance so it was interesting to learn about the enhanced sound insulation.
Re: Window change Reply #12 – September 17, 2016, 05:43:33 pm Here is an interesting YouTube of one brave soul.Part one:https://youtu.be/hA-_q4QGoZUPart two:https://youtu.be/GA9srfKF58INothing that I hope to be doing any time soon.Kent
Re: Window change Reply #13 – September 17, 2016, 06:06:15 pm He is definitely braver than me.Jim 1 Likes
Re: Window change Reply #14 – September 17, 2016, 06:35:59 pm "I don't recall ever having this particular problem in my '85."---Your '85 had single pane windows! 1 Likes
Re: Window change Reply #15 – September 17, 2016, 06:52:45 pm I guess that explains why I didn't have a fogging issue! I was thinking they were dual pane . . .
Re: Window change Reply #16 – September 17, 2016, 07:14:00 pm Quote from: JCT - September 17, 2016, 05:11:14 pmIt would be interesting to know how many owners of post-2003 LDs, particularly those produced since 2008 (the latest model year in which I've observed fogging), and which models and years have experienced the problem. I suspect that most of the affected rigs would be TKs and/or MBs with the large rear windows, but, from my observations, this window is not the only one that is susceptible to hazing.JoanOurs is an 06 30' IB. We know of another identical model with fogging. Also a 2007 MB and 2007 RK. I would think the problem is not model specific. We will be in the Phoenix area in a couple of months and I am going to check with that outfit that Kent linked to. I started to visit them this year in Coburg, OR and then we just didn't do it.Jim
Re: Window change Reply #17 – September 17, 2016, 09:23:47 pm Our 2003 MB has several foggy windows. The large rear window was the first to go, but probably half of the others show symptoms when the light hits them just right.My biggest hesitation with getting them fixed is the quality of re-installation. I've considered having our windows repaired at Suncoast Designers | RV Window Repair Specialists in Hudson, FL, but my current plan is to wait until I have the chance to re-re-install them with butyl tape right after they are re-installed by the window repair people.I found this narrative to be informative:RV-Dreams Journal: Suncoast Designers - Fogged RV Window Repair - (Hudson, FL)Rich'03 MB in NC
Re: Window change Reply #18 – September 19, 2016, 02:04:50 pm Quote from: JCT - September 17, 2016, 06:35:59 pmYour '85 had single pane windows! Pre-2003 LDs had dual-pane, safety glass. It consist of two layers of plate glass, glued together with a flexible adhesive.If the window is hit and broken, it will shatter into many pieces, held together with the adhesive. This helps prevent flying shards of broken glass, in case of an accident.Larry
Re: Window change Reply #19 – September 19, 2016, 02:08:38 pm Quote from: Larry Wade - September 19, 2016, 02:04:50 pmPre-2003 LDs had dual-pane, safety glass. It consist of two layers of plate glass, glued together with a flexible adhesive.If the window is hit and broken, it will shatter into many pieces, held together with the adhesive. This helps prevent flying shards of broken glass, in case of an accident.Larry That's what I was thinking. Thanks for "clearing" that up (pun intended)!
Re: Window change Reply #20 – September 19, 2016, 02:50:25 pm To me, a "dual pane" window is the type with air space in between the two panes; I still think of the safety glass "sandwiched together" pane as a single. Just semantics; sorry for any confusion.
Re: Window change Reply #21 – September 19, 2016, 02:58:24 pm Quote from: JCT - September 19, 2016, 02:50:25 pmTo me, a "dual pane" window is the type with air space in between the two panes; I still think of the safety glass "sandwiched together" pane as a single. Just semantics; sorry for any confusion.No confusion. The factory used to call the safety glass "dual pane" windows and they are, just without the miserable air gap.Larry
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