Lazy Daze Owners' Group

Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/importan

February 08, 2016, 11:42:22 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 158616

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Thanks to Jeanne & Russ we saw a couple LD 26/5/27 MB this last weekend.
That is now our choice.
 Now, we would like to understand more about the chassis and engine/transmission/etc. - the things that can't easily be replaced (like fans or water pumps could). That will help us narrow down which years to be shopping for.

What we care about: We want to be able to climb over mountains, like the Rockys without struggling for long periods.  We have done the drop down to 45-50 because the vehicle couldn't do it, or could not get back up to speed after slowing down behind a slow truck.

So we want some power.
We are not sure what else we really care about, things that we can replace ourselves (water pump, fans, etc.), I am not so worried about.  But things that can't easily be replaced without ripping up walls... We just want to go in informed saying this is what is important to us and that we don't care about so much.
 Question 1:  From Andy's files, there was a change from a 4-speed transmission to a 5-speed one in the 2005 model.  From our readings that 5th speed makes a big difference in general for RVs.
Discussions here recently said there was a 6-speed transmission in the 2016 LD model.  Was that first introduced in 2016 or did it show before then (Andy's files stop at 2013).
 For those that have compared the 4-speed to the 5-speed to the 6-speed (ok, I know I am dreaming now), how much difference have you noticed?  Any info would be appreciated.  Also, I have seen references to half speed/gear increments.  Can anyone explain this?  (E.g. does that mean it is really 10 speeds not 5, or .....).
 Question 2:  2008 there is the new Ford 450 chassis.  More CCC, redesigned front suspension & steering, trouble-prone driveline/transmission parking brake eliminated, brake rotor increased from 10" to 13" in diameter, traction control added.
Now all this sounds fine, but for those who have compared the two, what difference have you really found to be important?
 Question 3:  Are there other big changes that are not so easy to upgrade over the various years of the 26.5/27 Mid Bath? Did tank sizes change? The web page says 27 midbath has 58 gal fresh, 35 grey, 28 black, 6 gal water heater, 14 gal propane tank.  But I understand that the web page might not be fully up to date.
Anything related to how it handles to drive it or .....

Thanks for the info, Jane.

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #2 – February 09, 2016, 12:30:47 am

Yahoo Message Number: 158618

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Hello, I have the 2016 spec. in my hand (Were mailed last week).  In regards to Q3, the numbers are the same for tank sizes.

Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #4 – February 09, 2016, 05:43:27 am

Yahoo Message Number: 158620

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If you are going to do a lot of mountain driving and don't like climbing the hill slowly with the trucks, I would highly recommend that you install a Banks Kit or equivalent.
 I owned a 2005 LD MB on a 2005 E-450 chassis. We always towed a Jeep that weighed about 4000 lbs.  I put a Banks Kit on the LD and it made a major difference in climbing hills.  You could "out climb" the trucks.  We took the coach over the Rockies at least 20 times during the period we owned it.  In normal driving on the level you don't even recognize that the kit is present.  I could see no difference in gas mileage with the Banks installed.  Others will tell you a different story on MPG.
 I now own an SOB on a 2013 E-450 chassis and do not have a Banks kit.  We still tow the Jeep.  The coach weighs almost the same as did the LD.  I have taken this coach over the Rockies (I-80 & I-70) 5 times and really missed the extra boost provided by the Banks Kit.
 Be aware that the term "Banks Kit" covers a lot of different sets of hardware.  Banks keeps redesigning their products to match the latest changes in the Ford engine.  For example Banks made very significant changes in the kit between for 2005.  The 2005 kit did not look the same or work the same as kits from previous years.  I have not kept up with all the recent changes to the kit, but there have been quite a few.  Vehicle performance with the kit installed will differ from year to year.
 Also be aware that there are other performance enhancement components that can be installed on a coach that provide the benefits of the Banks Kit, perhaps at lower cost.  Basically these are exhaust headers and larger exhaust system.  To consider this option you need to locate a "dynamometer shop" that does RV work.

Doug Baker

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #6 – February 09, 2016, 02:05:47 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 158646

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Just to provide a counterpoint to Doug's experience with the Banks upgrade: I had a full Banks Powerpack upgrade--"the works"--done on my 2003 Lazy Daze midbath a few years ago. As others have said, it cost three or four thousand bucks. I noticed very little difference in acceleration or hill-climbing ability afterward.

I still have to slow down to 35 mph or less on some of the steeper upgrades in the Rockies. (My rig is loaded close to the 14,050-pound maximum, and is towing a 3,800-pound Subaru Forester.) For me, that money would have been better spent elsewhere.

I feel much better about the $1,879 transmission upgrade/rebuild and larger tranny cooler I had installed by John Wood last year. Those didn't get me any more speed, but my transmission now runs much cooler when climbing steep hills, and has substantially beefed-up parts in critical areas.

Andy Baird

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #8 – February 09, 2016, 05:52:26 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 158655

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Hey Doug,

Thanks for the candid reply about why you haven't had the Banks upgrade installed on your newest rig.

While I haven't towed anything behind our LD, I haven't seen a need for more power. Like you, we've climbed over the Rockies numerous times.
We were fairly certain that we would put a lot of miles on our rig and I wouldn't want to do *anything* that could stress the engine or transmission. Even as I've looked for a gently used rig, if I see it has a Banks system installed, I shy away from it. Just my $.02.

Always informative to read your posts, so thanks again.
Steve K.

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #10 – February 09, 2016, 11:56:38 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 158663

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"Banks users I know have had great, and disastrous results.'"

Over the years, there have been several reports of Bank's computer add-on chips failing, leaving the LD stranded until the add-on chip was removed and the original parts replaced.. One of breakdown left the LD stranded deep in Mexico. Think about that for a while if you travel to remote places..
Anything that decrease reliability is off my "must have" list.  I hate on-the-road breakdowns and will go along ways to prevent them.

The early 265-HP V-10 LDs, will get significant results from the Banks exhaust system. Ford incorporated much of the same design in the later 305-HP V-10s.
If my LD was equipped with the full Banks system, I would find out how to removed the add-on chip, document it and store the instructions in the LD so I or a mechanic would have clue on where to begin the repair.

Except for cooling upgrades, leaving the LD's driveline stock will provide the best chance for a long, trouble-free life and more fun times on the road.
Getting there a few minutes earlier doesn't really matter that much in the cosmic scheme of things IMO.

Larry

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #12 – February 10, 2016, 02:47:14 am

Yahoo Message Number: 158668

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I appreciate the info on the Banks. We like reliability, a reason LD was attractive to us, and plan to be in out of the way spots most of the time, so we would probably pass on the Banks.
 Andy, so the John Wood upgrade/rebuild... would you do that only to an ailing transmission or would you do that to a perfectly good but 4-speed transmission?

Larry, what are the cooling upgrades you speak of?

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #14 – February 10, 2016, 09:38:41 am

Yahoo Message Number: 158670

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Doug there is some issues with you concept. It starts wilt calling the PDP 11 a 12 bit machine. It was a 16 bit machine from day one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-11

I worked with well over a hundred various PDP-11's along with several of the earlier and overlapping PDP-8's. Now the PDP-8 was a 12 bit machine..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-8

If the early ECU's were based on the Dec machines PDP 8 that would be interesting.  I'd like some more history if you have any sources..

Re: Old computer programmers ;>}

Reply #16 – February 10, 2016, 10:09:57 am

Yahoo Message Number: 158673

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Yep, I caught that as well.  Doug was most likely thinking of the PDP-8.  In my early career, I spent a lot of time toggling machine code instructions in via the switches on the front panel of PDP-11s.  I had memorized most of the primary instruction set.  I remember the PDP-11 instruction set as well designed and powerful.
By the time we moved on to the VAX computer series, I pretty much relied on assembler and C coding.

Enough off topic reminiscing, Art

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #18 – February 10, 2016, 11:34:29 am

Yahoo Message Number: 158677

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Doug

There has been multiple version of the Banks system, as the emission regulations and engines changed. I have seen several variations through the years but do not know the year to year changes. The degree of power increase is also dependent on the model year.

From my point of view, more dependability and zero extra costs are nice benefits to not having the system.
Now I wouldn't mind just running a stand alone exhaust system, if there was much power to be gained.

I do not like messing with the Factory electronics in any vehicle.
Ford, like the other manufacturers, has spent hundred of millions of dollars designing the various systems to be dependable. No after-market company, even Banks, has the same resources or can do the the amount of testing that the OEMs do before releasing new a product for sale. Plus, when major problems do occur, the OEMs will many times fix the problem through TBSs and recalls.

My point was if you run a Banks, that uses add on electronics, you are risking a much greater chance of a breakdown. The Ford factory electronics are very dependable and breakdowns are rare.
The Banks electronics have not shown the same dependability. One breakdown in the middle nowhere erases all the positive parts of this addition. If one has a Banks system, learning how to reset the computer to stock would be good thing know.

Larry

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #20 – February 10, 2016, 12:09:16 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 158680

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"If I could recommend anything, install sufficient gauging for oil and/or water temperatures and pressures. Get a ScanGage too."

Chuck

As you found out, the 265-HP V-10s really benefit from the Banks system.

The E450's dash has coolant temperature and oil pressure gauges but lacks the important to know transmission temperature gauge. Useful information to know when towing.
The dash does have a transmission overheat warning light but it comes on at a very high temperature, I have not seen or heard of one illuminating. I'm not sure if the earlier 4L100s had this feature.
The later 4L100 4-speed transmissions (starting around 2002) include an internal oil temperature sender, unlike the older models. The temperature sender is needed to use a ScanGauge .
Earlier LDs, without the temp sender can use an aftermarket gauge, with the temperature sender installed the transmission's oil pan or in one of the transmission's oil coolers supply lines.

Larry

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #22 – February 10, 2016, 07:13:38 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 158698

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Several of you caught my error about the PDP-11.  However, as I said, I was doing it from memory and the memory is not always reliable any more.  I guess that it was the PDP-8.  I should have known better as I was a long time DEC customer; initially purchasing two of Ken's earliest PDP-1's
 I do not know all the changes that the Banks Kits have undergone, but I am certain that there were many.  If you look at the CARB (CA  Air Resources Board) web site you find many Executive Orders for Banks Kits and the various components.   (The CARB EO's are the thing that allows their products to be used in CA.)  As Ford made minor tweaks to the V-10, Banks was forced to make tweaks to their products to maintain compatibility.  They made a lot of tweaks to the mechanical configuration of the headers.  The headers that were on my 2005 would not fit on a 2004.
 The results that you obtained from installing a Banks Kit varied greatly from year to year; despite their consistent claims about increased power and better gas mileage.  The year 2005 was not a good year; maybe because the changes made by Ford and Banks were so significant.  Another fact about Banks Engineering is that they market "kits" but they really engineer and build components like headers, cat-back exhaust systems, etc.  You do not find "kits" in their warehouse;  you find only the individual components.  When someone orders a "kit" a clerk runs through the warehouse with a "pick list" and a box basically assembling the kit.  The same thing happens when you take a vehicle there to have a kit installed.  In my case they installed the wrong CARB sticker on my coach so I could not get a smog test done.  In addition my coach was having a "fuel flow" issue and the Ford technicians blamed it all on the Banks Kit.  I spent many hours in Azusa with the engineers at Banks, being educated and getting things squared away.  Learned a lot and was assured that there was no way that the kit could cause my fuel flow problem.   Fuel problem eventually turned out to be a failing fuel pump which the Ford technicians could not diagnose.  That summer while climbing the eastern slope of the Rockies, headed for Cheyenne on I-80, the cause of the problem became very evident.

Doug Baker

Re: Ford engine & chassis for LDs - I am looking for difference/impo

Reply #24 – February 13, 2016, 02:41:48 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 158766

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That's good information Andy. A friend of mine just spent a week in western Washinton while his W4OD was rebuilt. A plastic (!) spring the size of that in a ball point pen was cited as the cause of the failure. This information on John Wood is now includes in my "wish list", to be done when we are convinced our coach is going to be a long term RV. Thanks again.