Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

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Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

September 08, 2014, 08:49:42 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148538

Hi All,

Short Story Punchline:

I destroyed a solder contact for a small wire and don't have a clue what the wire was for. Because this was a contact solder joint and not wiring insulation, it makes me think there might be other solder joints in the same immediate area. This is a blind assumption.

Details:

I have a 2000 MB 26.5 ft. with 4 AGM batteries. 2 AGMs in the battery compartment and 2 in the cabinet below the fridge. The cabinet is immediately adjacent to the battery compartment. I also have an inverter installed in the outside compartment directly below the batteries. All of this is a typical 4 battery AGM and inverter install for a MB Lazy Daze.

I was replacing all of my smaller gauge wires connecting my batteries and inverter with 2/0 wire.

Everything went smoothly until I needed to drill larger holes into the inverter compartment for the 2/0 wire. I drilled two holes through the floor. These holes were located to the left of the cabinet area (housing 2 of the batteries). The drill holes are about a foot away from the water tank. There are many other wires running through this area that were easy to avoid.

While drilling through the floor, I found that there were two separate levels of flooring (

- unsure what to call the second level of wood). The upper floor is the one that we walk on and the lower floor (??) was about 2-3 inches below the upper floor. I suppose the lower wood level could be associated with the installation of the exterior compartment located immediately below it.

I would not expect to see any wires in between these two levels of wood, BUT I ran into a wire solder connection point and destroyed it. I only realized that I had hit something when the solder bits and wire contact dropped through into the inverter compartment with the drill debris. Because it was a solder contact led me to believe that there could be other wires in the same area. HORRORS.

I have gone through the LD (and the Ford lights) looking for everything electrical that isn't working to no avail. I suspected because the wire was small that it could be a sensor wire to one of the tanks, but the tanks read normally.

If anyone has any idea what wire (or wires) could be running on top of the driver side forward compartment (below the normal floor), I would appreciate your help.

Thanks for any replies, S.D. Bob

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #1 – September 10, 2014, 09:30:10 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148587

Can't help you - but you should know that the floor is a sandwich consisting of a framework of 1X2" studs separating two layers of plywood. The spaces in the framing are insulated with styrofoam blocks. Wiring, propane lines, and water lines that must cross the width of the rig pass through the flooring. I believe it is unlikely the sensor wires would be routed alone - you could have disrupted much more. You should find where these wires entered the flooring and exited to assess the damage.

Steve

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #2 – September 11, 2014, 01:04:06 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148590

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response.

I've never seen the factory construction process. I've looked at the models several times, but it was always on a weekend when the factory was closed. I didn't understand what the flooring looked like under the carpet/linoleum until you explained it.

Finding the travel route of a wire or wires between the 2 floors is going to be challenging. I haven't found anything electrical that doesn't work and I've seemingly tried everything. I'm taking a trip in a couple of weeks and "might" find out the problem on that trip.

I know very little about the wire other than the location, size of the wire and there was a solder contact joint where I drilled (solid wire, about 20 gauge) - obviously connecting a small current carrying device.

I think I'll call (or visit) the mothership and ask them for any ideas? I could visit when they have a MB under construction where the top flooring level hasn't been put into place.

Tracing the wire(s) route is going to be hard or impossible because I don't see any wires going down into the sub-flooring area. All the wires I'm seeing are stranded and larger than 20 gauge, running hidden through the cabinets.

I figure any Ford wiring would be connected in some manner to the frame. Any after market (not Lazy Daze) wiring wouldn't be running between the two floor levels due to access problems.

One of my options is to buy a cheap fiber optic device and take a look down the hole to see what I've damaged. That should answer all my questions, but correcting the problem could present another challenge.

Other than the dash radio and CB, what other devices up front are supplied by the house batteries???

Bob

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #3 – September 11, 2014, 03:29:19 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148595

"I have gone through the LD (and the Ford lights) looking for everything electrical that isn't working to no avail. I suspected because the wire was small that it could be a sensor wire to one of the tanks, but the tanks read normally."

Have you taken a ride and seen if the Check Engine light came on. It just might be a wire related to the emission control system. ABS, fuel tank, etc.? Perhaps as part of the construction process, these wires get routed in the floor.

Just a guess.

Best of luck.

Ed

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #4 – September 11, 2014, 05:13:47 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148596

"I know very little about the wire other than the location, size of the wire and there was a solder contact joint where I drilled (solid wire, about 20 gauge) - obviously connecting a small current carrying device. "

Bob

The only solid gauge wire used in most LDs is for the 120-VAC wiring and it is usually carried under the floor in the provided utility chase. Never seen a wire in any other parts of the floor and never seen it used in the aftermarket other than for holes straight up and through. There are easier ways to run wires.
If everything electrical is working correctly, you may have dodged the bullet.
The only other thing I can think it might be is a ground wire, linking some appliance(s) to ground

When drilling into the floor, know where the utility chase is and how the wires and tubing enter and exit.
To drill through the floor hole, start with a shallow hole, just penetrating the top layer and not damaging anything below. To prevent drilling too deep, use a drill stop gauge or a piece of tape, on the bit, to set the depth of the hole.
At this point, I use a long, steel rod to probe around inside the floor, pushing the insulation out of the pathway to the bottom layer of the floor, feeling for wires and or tubing along the way.
If and when it feels clear, finish by drilling through the bottom layer and sheet metal cover.
Once finished, seal the bottom hole with a good, non-sagging sealant.

A fiber optic device could also be useful, once the floor's fiberglass insulation is cleared out of the way.
Wouldn't work at all on the newer, Styrofoam insulated models.

Larry

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #5 – September 11, 2014, 05:22:41 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148597

'It just might be a wire related to the emission control system. ABS, fuel tank, etc.? Perhaps as part of the construction process, these wires get routed in the floor."

None of Ford's wires enter the coach except where the rear tail lights are connected.
All the wiring pertaining to the chassis stay in the chassis.or in the cab.

Any wire located inside the floor most likely was installed during construction by LD...or maybe it was a piece of trash that didn't get picked up.
Mine came with a small box of various screws, located inside a cabinet, a video cable hidden behind the microwave and a lot of sawdust in hidden places. YMMV

Larry

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #6 – September 11, 2014, 06:08:11 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148599

Larry is right on. There's no Ford wiring in the floor "sandwich" (which consists of upper plywood layer, foam insulation, lower plywood layer, and sheetmetal bottom layer in most places). I'd take a deep breath, and not worry about it unless or until you find something that doesn't work.

If that day arrives, remove the AGM batteries in the cabinet below the fridge, remove cabinet back and side wall, then use a drill motor with large hole saw to remove top plywood layer only. The pilot or center drill bit should extend only enough to stabilize the hole saw. Stop drilling when the hole saw starts to break through, then pry out the remaining plug and have a look.

If you need a larger hole to do any repairs, a short blade on a saber saw should work well. Hole, being out of sight, will patch easily too.

bumper

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #7 – September 12, 2014, 02:16:34 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148604

Thanks to Ed, Larry and Bumper for good advice (hopefully I didn't leave anyone out).

For the moment I'm going to think I hit some trash laying on the sub-flooring, later I might change my mind.

The endoscopes on Amazon are cheap (some appear to be better than others). I think I can push the insulation out of the way with a long thin screwdriver to see what happened on the second floor level.

2 Million Pixels HD Cmos 6-led Mini USB Endoscope Inspection Camera Waterproof Borescope Snake Scope (5m) for $29. They have several at $20 or less, but this one looks good (better??) with some favorable comments. Besides it looks like a cool toy to hook up to the USB port on my laptop.

2 Million Pixels HD Cmos 6-led Mini USB Endoscope Inspection Camera Waterproof Borescope Snake Scope(5m)

Bob

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #8 – September 12, 2014, 05:59:21 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148606

The price looks good. The specs on the CMOS camera look good. However they forgot to mention the overall system resolution (line pairs/unit distance) in their product description which is determined by the quality of the lens and the diameter of the flexible optical fibers and their composition (plastic or optical glass). "Cool toy" may be an appropriate description. Anyway I hope it works for Bob. Lutz

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #9 – September 12, 2014, 07:42:52 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148608

One suggestion about cheap borescopes: although the low prices on the "headless" type you linked to are tempting, it's generally not very practical to juggle a laptop while trying to poke around with a borescope. I recommend spending a little more to get one that has its own LCD monitor. A hundred bucks, give or take, will get you a much more usable setup.

Andy Baird

Travels with Andy

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #10 – September 12, 2014, 07:51:29 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148609

"they forgot to mention the overall system resolution (line pairs/unit distance) in their product description which is determined by the quality of the lens and the diameter of the flexible optical fibers and their composition (plastic or optical glass)."

These cheapies don't use optical light-guides, because that would be much too expensive. Instead, they put a pinhead-sized cell-phone image sensor and half a dozen surface-mount white LED chips in the scope's business end, and just trail a few wires (via a gooseneck metal conduit for stiffness) back to the monitor or USB connection.

Of course lens quality is still a factor, but as far as digital resolution is concerned, with these $100-and-under units it's typically in the 640 x 480 to 1,280 x 720 range.

Andy Baird

Travels with Andy

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #11 – September 12, 2014, 09:37:17 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148611

Thanks for the excellent info Andy.

I'm going for the one or two time use type of toy (cheap). If I thought I was going to use this repeatedly in the future, I'd follow your advice and spring for the more expensive unit.

Not much scope detail is necessary to tell if I encountered trash, a set of wires or a terminal. I know these scopes can scratch the lens easily and the LED light adjust feature is a joke, but if this endoscope works well for me one time, it will be worth the $29. It'll either give me piece of mind or a real groaner of a problem.

In the customer video, the $29 unit looked like a 1280x720 picture. Hopefully it wasn't a company shill putting up that video.

If the endoscope continues to work after the LD use, I'll convince the dog to swallow it and see how many socks he's swallowed and residing in his stomach. LOL

Bob

Re: Drilling Blindly & Hit Something???

Reply #12 – September 12, 2014, 11:21:42 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 148612

"I'm going for the one or two time use type of toy (cheap). If I thought I was going to use this repeatedly in the future, I'd follow your advice and spring for the more expensive unit."

Sure, that makes good sense in your case. I was really talking more to other folks who might be thinking about buying one of these low-cost borescopes.

They really do come in handy. I've used mine a number of times in the six months since I bought it, for jobs that would have been impossible any other way (e.g., inspecting the inside of a friend's gray tank to see how far the idiot manufacturer--not LD!--had shoved the vent pipe down into the tank).

Andy Baird

Travels with Andy

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