Plumbing question December 02, 2012, 08:03:05 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135492Hi gang, I have a quick plumbing question that I think I already know the answer to, but figured I should hold off until getting a couple of a yeas or neas. The issue is related to the grey household waterline coming from the water pump. I have a '93 22' MP, so to access either the water well, pump and/or external water valve, all you have to do is take out 3 drawers on the bottom left of the closet. As detailed in a post I made back in Oct, I've already gone through the exercise of replacing the backflow check valve by the same access method. The new external water valve works perfectly, but I've noticed I have a leak at the connection of the pump to the internal line. (Right before the junction coming from the external water source.) My first attempt @ a quick fix was to simply throw on some plumbers tape onto the pump's male plastic thread (I know, it should be pressure fitted - but 20 years on, I figured I'd rely on a short-cut first). This actually worked, but the real leak is coming from the grey plastic female screw-on connector and the grey piping right around the area that the connector is secured by a (by the looks of it, machine fitted) copper band. There is no way I can get that band off to replace the female screw connector, so I'm thinking of simply clipping the piping @ that point. If I do that, then it's a piece of cake to get a new connector & 2-3" section of pipe. The trick will then to be to marry this to the existing line @ the point of the cut. I figure a simple double barb connector, with perhaps two hose clamps should do the trick. Thoughts and/or advice? It seems like it would be a real bear to get off the copper band that secures the female connector, but admittedly, the cleanest approach would be to simply remove the existing female connector and replace it with a new one.
Re: Plumbing question Reply #1 – December 03, 2012, 11:25:12 am Yahoo Message Number: 135502Given the hassle of removing that bathroom faucet, I wonder if it would be doable to, turn off the water pump, release pressure by opening a couple of hot water faucets, then use a baster bulb to push some CLR into the fixture . . . maybe several times. If it's lime deposits this might do the fix without removing anything. Just flush lines well after! Oh, and wear rubber gloves while doing the deed.bumper[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Plumbing question Reply #2 – December 03, 2012, 12:23:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135504QuoteThoughts and/or advice? It seems like it would be a real bear to get off the copper band that secures the female connector, but admittedly, the cleanest approach would be to simply remove the existing female connector and replace it with a new one. If you have the grey polybutylene piping and fittings, you will find most or all of the plastic fittings will crack and leak in time. I replaced all of them (most had cracked) in our '83 with standard brass flare fittings, and had no further problem. Finding the tubing to replaced shortened runs when you cut it to replace the fittings is the problem - it is only available in a few plumbing shops as old back-stock. The tubing can be re-flared with standard flaring tools, with a little practice, and any existing flared ends can be sealed properly when you slip on the brass fittings. If you have any plastic male 'tees', I recommend you also replaced those with brass. The option is replacing the entire plumbing with PEX, which some have done, but is a LOT of work.Steve
Re: Plumbing question Reply #3 – December 03, 2012, 03:26:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135508Steve's comments are always helpful. I would offer that the Flar-it brand of PEX fittings will typically interface the Polybutylene tubing with no problems. The use of this brand allows you to simply cut out the old junction and replace it with the appropriate Flar-it fitting. We have used the process for over 10 years with no problems, for both 3/8 and 1/2" fittings.Hope this is of assistance.Mike
Re: Plumbing question Reply #4 – December 03, 2012, 05:36:51 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135510If you have the grey polybutylene piping and fittings, you will find most or all of the plastic fittings will crack and leak in time. ... The option is replacing the entire plumbing with PEX, which some have done, but is a LOT of work. Steve Steve & Mike, thanks for the input. After a little more research I found out that I do indeed have polybutylene (poly-b) piping in my '93 LD. After a quick call to the mother ship, they confirmed that they switched over to PEX around 15 years ago due the leaking issues related with poly-b. I have a std Shurflo pump, and after a call to their customer service desk, found out that they still make/made female compression fittings for both PEX and poly-b. Another call over to M Thompson confirmed they have both types in inventory.Ok, so here are my basic options:1. Get a replacement poly-b female connector, pry out the old seal from my existing connector and replace it with the internal rubber seal from the new connector. (This is essentially a reprise of the back-flow replacement trick originally documented by Steve, with an update from my experience utilizing this process 2 mos ago.) From what I can tell, my leak isn't from the poly-b, brass banded coupling to the female connector, it's the female thread coupling itself. And after putting plumbers tape on the pump's male threads, it looked like it was coming out the back-end of the female compression coupling.2. Throw on a Flair-It swivel coupling by cutting off the old female connector from the poly-b water line: http://mobilehomepartsstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=160102 Mike, you mentioned you've used this before. How do adjust for the loss of length? That is, if I cut right behind the brass ring, that will take off around 3/4". Does the Flair-it add this length or do you simply move the line over a smidge? 3. Add a PEX female connector and splice on some PEX tubing. This would require cutting off around 3-4" of existing poly-b line and splicing in the same length of PEX. Since Shurflo makes the PEX female connectors, the only issue would then be the PEX-to-Poly-b splice. It looks like this a pretty common issue, so there are std brass couplings available. As it turns out, there are two basic approaches.a. The first is a simple Shark bite coupling: http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.com/sharkbite-u4008-pb-conversion-coupling-1-2-x-1-2 b. The second is a more professional approach:http://www.amazon.com/Watts-LFP-505-Polybutylene-Transition-Coupling/dp/B003KVZ5PGThe only problem with option 'b' is it requires a crimping tool like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23468-2-Inch-4-Inch-Combo/dp/B0026RHAWQ/ref=pd_sxp_f_ptI can get one at least half that, and I could always use it once and return.*** To summarize, I think I've essentially outlined my approach above. It trends from simplest to hardest, with a corresponding degree of success. Mike, I'd really like to hear your input regarding the Flair-it - that really might be the easiest solution if the seal-swap trick doesn't work. As for the Shark bite, does anyone have any experience with this coupling device?TIA,Karl As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Plumbing question Reply #5 – December 03, 2012, 06:28:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135511OK, your concern over make up length is valid. After you obtain the flar-it fitting you want to use, you'll probably have your answer as the flarit is usually significantly longer than a compression ring fitting. I would expect that you'll have adequate length to make up the fitting and screw it on. FYI, the flarit fitting is a barbed type fitting and has a compression ring that screws on over the "pipe" and the barb, trapping the "pipe" securly. If in the event you don't have the right dimension, just back out a bit futher, get a coupling and a foot of PEX and and make the joint any length you need. As to the sharkbite, I've used a couple, but don't really like them for RV application as they are pretty heavy. While that is good for durability, the effect of the mass on a water line that's gonna' receive all the road vibration etc doesn't set well with me. Just in case you didn't know it, the primary failure of PB systems was in the fitting being attacked by the water coming from most of the public water systems. The pipe it self was not the primary focus as I remember it. Further, the failure was the plastic elements of the fittings not the brass material. Once the plastic fittings are out of the system, you should be relatively safe. With that said, I would move to PEX at all opportunites. Another excellent fitting for PEX is the SeaTech fitting that uses a "push to lock" mechanism that makes accessing akward and constrained spaces much simpler.Hope this is of assistance, Mike
Re: Plumbing question Reply #6 – December 03, 2012, 06:31:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135512Bumper, I too wondered about squirting some CLR into the faucet rather than removing it. Bear in mind that I did not know for sure that there were strainers at the hose connection points until I pulled the faucet and looked. Knowing what I do now, an easier way to inject CLR than using the bulb syringe to push it upward would be to pull the cartridge, block the cold side port with a pencil or some such, then simply pour the CLR into the hot side port. Once I did that, I would not let it sit too long, and would do a really thorough flush. A safer option to that approach would be to remove the water line connections and get a throw-away water line to connect to the faucet, thus eliminating the possibility of CLR getting further back into the water supply. The water line would make it easy to drain the CLR to a bucket, and would allow flushing the fixture without the water line being connected, thus no contamination from the CLR. Hmmm, I wish I had thought of that sooner....Ken F in NM
Re: Plumbing question Reply #7 – December 03, 2012, 11:14:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135514The primary failure of PB systems was in the fitting being attacked by the water coming from most of the public water systems. The pipe it self was not the primary focus as I remember it. Further, the failure was the plastic elements of the fittings not the brass material. Once the plastic fittings are out of the system, you should be relatively safe. From what I read, it seems like chlorine was the primary culprit behind a lot of poly-b leaks. I guess poly-b was used extensively in mobile home construction, so they of course have more permanent connections than most RVs. In addition, I have all brass fittings, and as you mention, they all appear to be very solid. I don't expect to have any problems with these joints. Upon even closer inspection, I came across what I believe was the carcass of the rubber seal. Since I had disconnected the compression fitting to let it dry out, I discovered what appeared to be a seal lying on the floor right below. However, it looked like something from the original Mummy movies, in that is was dessicated, flimsy and wispy. If that was what was serving as my compression seal, then no wonder it was leaking. I'm going to try step 1, which is to simply replace this seal from a new female compression fitting. I'll report back on my success/failure.
Re: Plumbing question Reply #8 – December 04, 2012, 03:00:21 am Yahoo Message Number: 135515IMO, the original faucet in most LDs is a cheap piece with an outlet positioned too low to allow getting ones hands comfortably under it. I say trash it when it causes problems. Removing it isn't that big a deal. Tape off the area around the faucet with masking tape, to prevent damaging the counter top, and then cut the sealant. I use a 1" wide putty knife, with the corners rounded and the cutting edge sharpened to a knife edge, to slide under the faucet, working its way around and between the inlets. Usually takes less than five minutes to complete. Sometime the inlets are glued to the inside of the hole, which requires a little extra persuasion. Disconnecting the supply lines and then pressing upward on the inlets, while rocking the faucet, usually will break it loose. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/3418448169/in/set-72157616437858322 I find working under the counter to be the hardest part. When you are done, take the old plastic faucet and chop its inlets pipes off. Tape off one end of each inlet and then fill each inlet with epoxy. Since the Factory did not provide shut off valves for the faucet, the two plugs provide a way to shut the water off in case the faucet should fail to seal, especially when camped in a place where repair or replacement is readily available. Throw then in the spares box. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157607802072647/ BTW, I too like the Flair-It fittings. They can be used in places where a compression tool will not fit. I carry a small collection for field repairs.Larry
Re: Plumbing question Reply #9 – December 04, 2012, 07:08:44 am Yahoo Message Number: 135519I'm sure someone will say why not to do this, but anyway, how about a little before your normal winterizing, you have the water pump fill your system with vinegar (excluding the hot water heater). Rinse it a while later, then do your normal fill with the pink stuff for the winter. The vinegar should dissolve the deposits. Any make things smell like a salad bar too.Eddie
Re: Plumbing question Reply #10 – December 04, 2012, 09:15:29 am Yahoo Message Number: 135523Thanks for the info Larry as usual! Since our sink is in pieces anyway (for our '85) I might consider doing the upgrade before reassembly.. I did notice the faucet for that era LD appears to be almost completely plastic albeit with a chrome exterior and you are correct regarding the height of these things -- way too low. Of course since ours has a folding top that is the primary reason for the low profile faucet but I'm not sure whether we'll reinstall the top or not.. Any suggestions on a decent replacement whether it be for our older model or newer ones? I think I read of other people just replacing with a faucet from Home Depot, Lowes or similar that was meant for the house -- I guess as long as the hole spacing/dimensions are proper it doesn't matter that much..
Re: Plumbing question Reply #11 – December 04, 2012, 06:54:46 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135538QuoteIf my worn, dessicated rubber gasket was serving as my compression seal, then no wonder it was leaking. I'm going to try step 1, which is to simply replace this seal from a new female compression fitting. I'll report back on my success/failure. Well, I lucked out again - in fact, for the 3rd time running - with my internal water system. The first time involved replacing a seal in my city water valve; the second required a faucet swap out (I could have opted for just a replacement 0 ring); and the last turned out to be the cheapest and easiest yet. The process was in many ways similar to the surgical procedure originally described by Steve for the city water check valve. In that instance, a new $5 backflow valve was cannibalized in order to access the cheap 2 cent plastic pieces within. I was going to originally buy an entire $8 Flair-It for this job, but then the nice parts guys @ M Thompson mentioned I could get the seal alone for 69 cents: http://www.dyersonline.com/flair-it-1-2-saniprene-swivel-seal.htmlWell, I slapped some plumber's silicon on that sucker, cleaned/scraped out the existing compression fitting with a small, sharp knife, put the seal in, tightened her up, started the pump and ... dry, no leaks. Trust me, I checked every 30 minutes just to make sure. So, to summarize, it is clear to me that the first place one should look when dealing with a water leak are the rubber seals and plastic do-dads. (Duh!) Seriously though, no matter how many times it's stated, experience definitely detects a pattern. What's also interesting is that if there is ever a need to splice in some PEX, I've developed enough notes to perhaps attempt that job as well.
Re: Plumbing question Reply #12 – January 25, 2015, 04:55:15 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150559During replacement of the kitchen faucet in my 1997 TK, I went looking for help when the swivel fitting on the cold water started leaking. This post was very helpful in understanding the problem. It looks like water is coming out of the fitting or between it & the PB water line, just like in the original post from Regan. Instead of the 2-3" he had to play with, I have only about 1.5.I'd like to ask the pros a couple of questions on both a short-term and longer term fix.Short term: I need to replace the swivel fitting but I don't have much (1.5" of PB line) to play with. What kind of solution is possible here? Will this Flair It swivel that is PEX x FPT work? If not, what will? Flair It Fresh Water Swivel 90 RV Marine Mobile Home Plumbing 1/2"Pex X 1/2"FPTLonger term: will I need to replace all of the brass fittings on the PB line with PEX fittings? I assume so. I'm interested to hear how I could start splicing in PEX line & fittings if I don't attempt a complete replacement all at once. Thanks in advance, Ray
Re: Plumbing question Reply #13 – January 25, 2015, 05:33:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 150560I don't think you want to get involved with a plumbing project that involves splicing in different types/combinations of piping. Unless it's your very last option, IMO it's asking for trouble simply from the stand point that you'll introduce multiple potential points of failure. As I mentioned in my post, I lucked out because I was determined to first see if I could solve the problem from where it was originating. As noted, each of my water leak problems arose from old, dried up seals. So, before you do anything else, I would suggest you take apart your primary connection between the faucet & hose pipe, and (a) make sure every thing is cleaned out, and (b) see if you can recover a piece of (or the whole) seal, and then try and exact replacement for that first. From my adventure in plumbing, I found out there were black and white seals available. They looked close enough, so I believe I used the black one. Nope - still a minor leak. The next effort involved using an e-xacto blade to carefully run it around the inside of the fitting (careful not to score the threads) to make sure every bit was out. I ended up recovering a micro-bit of the white seal, so on the next pass, I used that one. Between the proper type (softness, size) and really cleaning out the coupling, I haven't had any problems for the past 1-2 years since I wrote that post.
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