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Topic: Update: Ford engine quits - Banks Chip removed. fixed? (Read 26 times) previous topic - next topic
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Update: Ford engine quits - Banks Chip removed. fixed?
Yahoo Message Number: 128960
Well here's the latest. Remember that I had several experiences of the engine unexpectedly quitting - each time it did, I took it for a Ford Mechanic (in the states) or other local mechanic here in Mexico. Each time, the mechanics (and I) assumed & hoped it was fixed.
 Thanks to this group, I was lead to Terry Tanner's techsnoz files where the same problem was addressed. Bob Filler's LD had the same problem.
 His solution, and (so far) mine, was to disconnect the Banks Power Pack chip. Bob was able to go to an authorized Banks place and got it programed, but I'm in Southern Baja, MZ and may not ever get it re-programed. When I return to the US, I will certainly be in touch with the Banks factory in Azuza, as they are the folks who installed it.
 There is NO way for me to be positive this is the permanent fix, because it has always been intermittent, without warning, and with days and weeks between events. This is NOT a comfortable position for me, as I not only worry like crazy what might happen to me if it quit on one of the narrow, steep, no shoulder, no guard rails mountains on MX 1. I have stewed and stewed about it because if it DOES happen again, it probably won't be just me being killed or injured. Worse, it could be someone else.
 There you are. I've driven about 300 miles with no unexpected engine failures, and Bob Filler has driven much further. I hope you only hear from me in the future talking about continued success with the fix.
 Here is a communication from Bob Filler with Terry - this is what Terry sent to me and helped diagnose the problem. I think this will be especially helpful to those of you with a Banks Power Pack system.
 You are correct, Terry. The first time it happened , I coasted to the shoulder and stopped, checked fluids, etc., but then the engine started without a problem. (All dash and Scan-Gauge indicatorswere in the normal range through-out the experience.) After that, the engine spontaneously shut down under a variety of road conditions, but I was able to restart immediately after the shutdown without slowing down. There were also some intermittent shifting problems which didn't seem to correlate to the engine shutdown, but they occurred without warning as well, then went away. By intermittant, I mean it might happen a time or two in 100 miles, and then not at all for 2-300 miles. The shifting problem typically occurred when pulling a steep grade, where the transmission had difficulty shifting down, but alternatively, would not allow me disengage the overdrive. No trouble codes would be set, and analysis by neither my regular mechanic nor a separate transmission shop could find any problems. Then, when I contacted a Ford service shop in Phoenix and described the symptoms including the absence of trouble codes, their first question was, "Do you have a Banks chip?" That's when I contacted Banks, who denied any awareness of the problem, but suggested I have them re-flash the chip.
 After having Banks re-flash their chip, I drove some 600 miles without any problem, but after that the shifting problem returned, got worse (especially on hilly terrain), the frequency increased, and finally, I had engine shutdown on the freeway, and was able to restart only with considerable difficulty . A Ford tech identified and replaced a bad coil and spark plug but attributed the overall problem to faulty communication between the PCM and the Banks chip plugged into it. He was the one who first suggested that a better way to increase engine performance would be to get a technician to reprogram the PCM and to get rid of the plug-in chip. He had removed the Banks chip and I drove the rig without incident in the Ford configuration until I got to the Dyno Shop some 1,000 miles later. . . . .
Bob Filler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Contacted Banks re unexpected engine quit
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 128961
(As Steve Jobs used to say) One more thing - -
 I contacted Banks via their web site. Actually, this is the second time I've emailed them.  The web site indicated that my message had been received and that I would be hearing back from them, soon. I'll let you know.
 Below is a snapshot of the Banks web page and a copy of the text I sent to them.
 Again, thanks to each of you for your support - ideas - recommendations. I'll let you know if I hear anything further.

Sarah

Copy of the "message"

"I believe this is the second email I've sent.
 Intermittent, no-warning, engine stops. No diagnostic code. After MUCH research, I found on the Lazy Daze RV (Yahoo) site another owner who had the same problem.
 Thanks to this e-list, I have removed the Banks chip. The other owner told me he contacted you and you were not aware of this ever happening. This is at least #2 that you're hearing about.
 I would call you and I would come to Azuza, (you installed this system) but I'm in Mexico. I'm copying this email for my files in case it happens again and someone is killed or injured as a result. I sincerely hope you give this your full attention and this time, respond to me with at least the acknowledgment that you have received this alert.

Sarah Blackwood"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Update: Ford engine quits - Banks Chip removed. fixed?
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 128962
Sarah,

I'm glad you got this done and hope it resolves your problem.
 I know many people swear by the Banks system, but I've never understood its appeal for those of us who have the V-10 chassis. It involves changes to the vehicle's most basic control systems, setting aside Ford's engineering and service knowledge
Terry
2003 26.5'RB
Gardnerville, NV
Re: Update: Ford engine quits - Banks Chip removed. fixed?
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 128966
"I know many people swear by the Banks system, but I've never understood its appeal for those of us who have the V-10 chassis. It involves changes to the vehicle's most basic control systems, setting aside Ford's engineering and service knowledge in favor of someone else's, at considerable expense, resulting in a non-standard vehicle for which parts and service are inevitably more limited, all for what seem like marginal performance gains, essentially making a slow vehicle a bit less slow."
 Having recently had a Banks PowerPack installed, I have a somewhat different point of view. To begin with, let's be clear on what we're talking about: the Banks PowerPack includes modifications to intake and exhaust systems plus (optionally) the added chip that is the topic of recent discussion here. From what Banks told me, the chip modifies the shifting pattern so that under hard acceleration (and only then), the transmission downshifts more aggressively. This is supposed to make life somewhat easier for the tranny... but it isn't necessary, and it isn't responsible for the PowerPack's performance enhancements. in short, you can pull that chip and get along just fine.
 About those enhancements: they are quite noticeable. My rig feels much safer in city driving, because it has an added reserve of power that lets me accelerate to blend in with traffic. And it holds its speed on upgrades in a way that it couldn't do before. The difference is obvious. I'd say that it makes my loaded-to-capacity rig, towing a car, perform as if it were empty and not towing.
 Fuel economy seems about the same, but that's no big surprise. Even if it were 20% better, it would take a ridiculously long time to earn back the $4,400 cost of the installation. But the added power is real, and for me at least, very useful.
 With regard to setting aside Ford's engineering: the factory exhaust system uses small-diameter pipes with multiple junctions, right-angle bends and other flow-restricting design aspects. It was made to be cheap to fabricate, not to perform well. But it takes significant energy to force exhaust through that maze of pipes--energy that isn't going to turn the wheels. The Banks exhaust system uses large, long stainless-steel pipes with gentle bends and carefully designed joins. The oversized Banks muffler is similarly engineered for minimum back pressure.
 I'm less enthusiastic about the Banks intake modifications, which seem to consist mainly of replacing the stock Ford air filter with an oil-soaked cotton K&N filter. The K&N filter supposedly allows freer flow, and it can be cleaned and reused, which sounds like a good idea... but the cleaning process is a major hassle, and Larry Wade reports finding dirt inside the intake manifolds of engines equipped with this K&N filter. I'll probably go back to the standard disposable Ford filter when this one gets clogged.
 My main points here are that you can remove the Banks chip and still get most of the benefit of the exhaust system modification; and that the benefit is quite significant--even for a conservative driver like me. The Banks upgrade is expensive, but it really does make a difference.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Update: Ford engine quits - Banks Chip removed. fixed?
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 128968
Andy, I have had the same Banks PowerPack installed in my 2000RB and have experienced the same things you describe.
Up grades it performs and holds speed , actually I have gone from fully loaded & towing at about 40 - 45mph now going up steep grades to 50 - 55mph. That makes me much more comfortable.  I opted not to put in the chip.

Your explanations are always right on, thanks!

Betty Jean , Circus Wagon & Patches
Re: Update: Ford engine quits - Banks Chip removed. fixed?
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129008
Quote

 Having recently had a Banks PowerPack installed, I have a somewhat different point of view.
Andy,
 We are considering a Banks system in future and have been somewhat put off by the recent unveiling of chip trouble on older installations. We also understand that it is the older ones that have that chip. That said we would love to hear more about your decision process and the installation. Where you had it done etc.. Any chance of a "travels" update with this info? Lydia and Robin
Lydia.
Current: 2020 JLUR w 15’ Squaredrop
Former: 2006 30IB Anniversary Edition
Re: Banks
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129018
"We are considering a Banks system in future and have been somewhat put off by the recent unveiling of chip trouble on older installations."
 I'm not sure how common this is--a lot of people seem very happy with the Banks upgrade--or whether it depends on when they put in the chip. I'd say if you're worried about it, just say "No, thanks" and save yourself $390. The exhaust and intake modifications are responsible for the bulk of the performance increase--you don't *have* to have the chip. For what it's worth, I did get the chip, although on the invoice it's confusing described as "OttoMind," which is actually a handheld ODB II reader and programmer that Banks sells. If I run into any problems with it, I'll post here, of course.
 I got the Banks upgrade because I'm in the midst of making a bunch of long-postponed upgrades (LED taillights, etc.) to my 2003 midbath, and wanted to do everything I could to make it as good as it can be, since I plan to keep it and live in it indefinitely. Could I have gotten along without the Banks system? Sure--I've done so for the past six years. But it's definitely nicer with than without, and maybe a bit safer, since I'm better able to stay out of the way of trouble.
 I had the upgrade done by Banks at their L.A. headquarters. They have a large, modern multi-building setup on a fairly quiet cul-de-sac. The work took the better part of two days, and they let me park in the street while they were not working on the rig, but I and my cat Alix had to be out of it during the day. I spent the days sitting in my car in their parking lot. (They do have a waiting room with comfortable chairs, a coffeemaker and a TV, but I'm not fond of either TV or coffee, so I chose not to spend any time there.)
 They started work at 6:00 each morning, which meant I had to get up at 5:00 a.m.--not enjoyable, but it was only for a couple of days. The first day, they worked until about 5:00 p.m. in order to get it to the point where it could be driven out front and parked, so I could spend the night in it. (It was VERY loud--I don't think they had put in the exhaust system at that point.) The installation was finished around 4:00 p.m. of the second day.
 Leaving Banks, I drove across town to Larry Wade's place for some more  upgrades. I had gotten halfway there when all my gauges went dead. I soon realized that the alternator wasn't working, and I was running on engine battery power, so to speak. I knew that if the engine stalled, it would not be restartable--not a good thing when your route requires you to be in the left lane of five lanes of rush-hour L.A. traffic! I nursed the rig the rest of the way to Larry's, where it died in the street in front of his house. We got it started again by jumpering from my house batteries, moved it into his driveway and put it on a charger.
 Next morning Larry quickly spotted and fixed the trouble: a wire that had been disconnected from the alternator. I let Banks know about this. It was a mistake anybody could have made, but it certainly resulted in a white-knuckle drive for me.
 On that first drive, I was too busy worrying about the charging situation to really appreciate the effect the Banks system had on performance, but when I left Larry a week later and headed to southern Arizona, I had a good chance to evaluate it as I drove through L.A. and later Phoenix. As I said in an earlier post, it made a significant difference in how well the rig was able to handle freeway traffic, and in the mountains.
 I should add that Larry did a terrific job on my long list of repairs and enhancements, including adding LED taillights, rewiring my Honda Fit's trailer lights, replacing the lightning-struck FM and CB antennas, adding a high-gain Wilson cellular antenna on an extensible pole, adding a new vent with Fan-Tastic fan in the forward dinette area, and quite a bit more. All his work was done with careful attention to detail. I still have a few things to do on my own, but I'm feeling pretty cheerful about my spiffed-up home. :-)

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Banks
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129022
Quote from: Andy Baird"

"...adding a high-gain Wilson cellular antenna on an extensible pole..."
Andy, which antenna did you install and how does the pole work?

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Banks
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129028
"Andy, which antenna did you install and how does the pole work?"

We used this antenna...
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002DV4JTM/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=andbai-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B002DV4JTM

...and this pole:
 http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/UNGER-Telescopic-Extension-Pole-4GU49?cm_sp=IO-_-IDP-_-BTM_BTB_Test&cm_vc=IDPBTEST3

The pole rests on the rear bumper and is attached to the ladder, and we used only the first two (heaviest) telescoping sections, so it can extend about eight feet above the roof.
 The real question is "How well does it work?" If properly aimed, the directional antenna should give a significantly stronger signal than the omnidirectional "whip" cell antennas that many of us use.
 However, since installation I haven't been in a weak enough signal area to give it a good trial... and the issue of measuring signal strength in order to aim the thing, which I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, is still unresolved. My phone only updates its dB reading every thirty seconds or so, and the Mac OS X version of the VZAccess Manager software lacks the ability to display anything other than bars--and Larry and I found that display to be all but useless.
 So it's an experiment in progress. I'll report back when I know more.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Banks
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129041
"the Mac OS X version of the VZAccess Manager software lacks the ability to display anything other than bars"
 Hover the mouse over the bars to see dBm (at least on VZAM_7.3.6_2704c).

Howard
Re: Banks
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129045
Andy,
 That Unger TF900 pole is available for about $70 less on Amazon. The description doesn't list the diameter of the largest, bottom section - - could you provide that please?

thanks,

bumper

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bumper
"Yonder" '05 MB
"WLDBLU" glider trailer
Re: Update: Ford engine quits - Banks Chip removed. fixed?
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129046
Hi,
 I installed a partial Banks system on our 97 RB several years ago. The headers and the chip, plus a different intake filter system. I am happy to say that I have not had any problems whatsoever. It made a significant difference in the performance of the rig, especially since we tow a Jeep. The gas mileage was essentially not affected. You will notice the difference more so in hilly terrain. Currently, we have almost 40K miles on the system.
 Banks systems are not cheap. In fact, I think they are overpriced. But, they are about the only show in town for our type of rig. The Ford V10 does respond to the better exhaust flow, at least our 97 does. Our V10 is the first year of production, so it was already down in horsepower and torque compared to the newer V10s.

Chuck Myers 97RB Skye Hartford, IA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Banks
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129051
Quote
"Hover the mouse over the bars to see dBm"

Ah! Thanks, Howard. That works.:-)

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
I also found it by clicking on "About VZAccess Manager".  In the box "hardware information", at the bottom it stated "Signal: -79dBm". This is on Mac OS X.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Update: Ford engine quits - Banks Chip removed. fixed?
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129070
Banks System overpriced??

I don't know what the Banks system costs, but I do know that to just have headers, exhaust pipes, and a new muffler installed on the Rexhall Airex built on an E350 chasses with a Ford 460 over ten years ago cost me about $2,000.  Of course, this included removing the cracked exhaust manifolds, broken manifold bolts, etc. in  addition.  In those days, the only headers that would fit the E350 to the best of my knowledge, were made by Doug Thorley.

Glen w/SOB

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Banks
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129073
"The description doesn't list the diameter of the largest, bottom section"

37mm, or just a hair over an inch and a half.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
 
Re: Banks
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129075
1" = 25.4mm, so 37mm would be slightly less than 1-1/2".

Not my opinion, just the facts.

Mike - 2002 30' IB

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]