LD brake job or what I did this weekend

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LD brake job or what I did this weekend

December 12, 2010, 10:38:47 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119036

Coming down the hill from the LD Caravan at Live Oak, last weekend, I felt a slight pulsation in the brake pedal and steering.
This was a quiet message that one or more rotors were warped.
It was time for brakes.
At 57,000 miles, our 2003 23.5' LD was ready. Not bad considering we tow a 4000lb Jeep much of the time.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157625459994065/>
Being happy with the original brake's performance, I used the same pads the LD came with, Ford Super Duty pads. Found them at Rock Auto several months ago..
http://www.rockauto.com/>
Disassembling the brakes, I found the front rotors deeply worn and covered with hundreds of micro-cracks. The front pads looked great with a third of the lining remaining.
The rear brakes were in better shape with rotors showing little wear, no scoring and fine for reuse. The rear caliper piston boots did show the effects of heat and were hard and cracked.
The rear pads were in good shape with a third of their lining remaining.
I picked up the needed front rotors, front and rear calipers plus wheel bearings, seals, grease and brake fluid at the local brake supply house.
I was a little stunned at the $800 price tag for just parts.
Who said RVing was cheap?
The job was mostly straight forward and was similar to other brake jobs except for everything weighing two or three times more than what I'm accustomed to. The front rotors weight 50 pounds each.
No special tools were needed except for a torque wrench capable of the 166-ft/lbs needed to torque the front brake pad holders .
You do need jacks and stands capable of safely supporting the weight.
The hardest part was the removal and installing of the rear wheels. Installing the front rotors come in a close second.
While everything was opened up, all the suspension and steering ball joints, tie-rods and bushings were checked. All of the hardware was checked for tightness. Everything looked good except for the toe-in being too high at +1/2". It was reset to +1/8".
Also changed the oil and filter, along with the air cleaner. Somewhere we must have driven through a swarm of bees, the filter was filled with hundreds of them stuck in the paper pleats.

The photos have a lot more details and the part numbers.

Looking for the ibuprofen.

Larry
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/collections/72157603770063511/>

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #1 – December 13, 2010, 07:24:29 am

Yahoo Message Number: 119041

Great Post. The documentation was very informative. Do you think the cracks in the front rotors would have eventually caused the rotor to come apart? I see you used two jacks on the rear. Did you raise simultaneously with both, or was the one a back up safety jack? Can you imagine fighting with the brake springs if they were drum brakes!!

And thanks for showing your work.

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #2 – December 13, 2010, 08:05:22 am

Yahoo Message Number: 119043

"Larry" wrote: At 57,000 miles, our 2003 23.5' LD was ready. Not bad considering we tow a 4000lb Jeep much of the time.
--- Hmmm...my 2003 has 64,000, but I don't tow, and haven't noticed any "pulsing" or shuddering when braking. The last system exam showed no problems, but another close look is on the "spring maintenance" list! From the descriptive photos of the process, it looks like you did your usual stellar work, but I bet that not even the promise of a 50-gallon drum of pain meds could entice you to do that job on another rig! ;-)

Joan

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #3 – December 13, 2010, 08:35:06 am

Yahoo Message Number: 119045

Quote

Coming down the hill from the LD Caravan at Live Oak, last weekend, I felt a slight pulsation in the brake pedal and steering.
This was a quiet message that one or more rotors were warped.
It was time for brakes.

=============
Thanks for an interesting report, Larry. Your first words bring up a question for me. When my brakes heat up on long down-hills I get a strong pulsing and jiggle in my steering. The folks at my long-time, trusted auto shop tell me it's not serious and doesn't need repair.
From what you're saying, it sounds like I do. Would you agree? I like what you share on this forum and I'd appreciate your comments if you have time.

Thanks so much.

Chuck in Bellevue, WA 1995 22' FL

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #4 – December 13, 2010, 10:43:47 am

Yahoo Message Number: 119046

"Do you think the cracks in the front rotors would have eventually caused the rotor to come apart? I see you used two jacks on the rear. Did you raise simultaneously with both, or was the one a back up safety jack? Can you imagine fighting with the brake springs if they were drum brakes!!

Sunny
Micro cracks in the rotor are not uncommon. They were not deep cracks but could have developed into something more serious.
The rotors can wear only .080" before they are considered legally worn out. The front rotors had .050" of wear. Considering the sight warpage, the cracks and how much metal would need to be machined off to get them straight and smooth, the rotors were beyond repair.
In my experience, once a rotor has warped, machining it is a short-term fix since the warpage usually returns within a few thousand miles.
It is so much work to change the rotors that I would not want to chance it
On the rear axle, I used two bottle jacks (8 & 12 ton) to lift each side and added a short 3-ton jack stand. Redundant...you bet! Lets say I'm cautious when it come to such weight.
Rear RV (G-30 chassis) drum brake's return springs are not that hard to install, using the right tools.

Larry

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #5 – December 13, 2010, 10:49:29 am

Yahoo Message Number: 119047

"Hmmm...my 2003 has 64,000, but I don't tow, and haven't noticed any "pulsing" or shuddering when braking"

Joan

You do not tow or carry as much stuff as we do.
The brake pulsation is a recent development and wasn't objectionable.
It was an indication of something wrong.
With your rig's light weight and your conservative driving, you should easily get 65,000 miles out of your brakes.

Larry

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #6 – December 13, 2010, 11:37:33 am

Yahoo Message Number: 119049

"Larry" wrote: With your rig's light weight and your conservative driving, you should easily get 65,000 miles out of your brakes.
--- Uh oh, only 1,000 more to go until "brake-down"!
When I was Henderson's (in June, 2009), they did pull the wheels and checked the rotors and pads and discs, then did the alignment. I watched (surprise!) the inspection, and everything looked good to the point that the tech asked me if I ever used the things! ;-)

Joan

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #7 – December 13, 2010, 12:26:26 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119050

Larry, Thanks for the helpful brake tips. I too recently had my brakes inspected having the slide caliper lubed and front wheel bearings serviced. With 62,000 miles on the MB the shop said I had 50 percent pad life. This is consistent with a Ford dealer's estimate of 60 percent at 54,000 miles.
I'm wondering what other owners are experiecing with pad wear. Based on your report pad wear isn't the only factor dictating the need for a major brake job.

Malcolm Blue02MB No Toad

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #8 – December 13, 2010, 12:52:22 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119052

Quote

"Larry" wrote: With your rig's light weight and your conservative driving, you should easily get 65,000 miles out of your brakes.
--- Uh oh, only 1,000 more to go until "brake-down"! " When I was Henderson's (in June, 2009), they did pull the wheels and checked the rotors and pads and discs, then did the alignment. I watched (surprise!) the inspection, and everything looked good to the point that the tech asked me if I ever used the things! ;-) "

Joan

Joan, you are so conservative (RV-wise) that you probably use an anchor to slow you down on hills so you won't have to use your brakes.

Chris

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #9 – December 13, 2010, 01:16:52 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119053

"With 62,000 miles on the MB the shop said I had 50 percent pad life. This is consistent with a Ford dealer's estimate of 60 percent at 54,000 miles."

Malcolm

One thing to remember is you cannot use all of the pad's lining.
It is recommended not to use pads with 1/8" or less of lining remaining.
6 out of the 8 pads, on our LD, had 3/16" or less of lining remaining. This works out to be about 1/3 of the original thickness.
50% of your pads remaining means that around 15-20% of the remaining pad is usable, not as much as you would think.
Waiting as long as possible does not save you nearly as much as you would think and increases the chances of brake failure. Some of the brake problems RVs suffer are age related.
Most RVs are driven only 7000-8000 miles a year and have long periods of inactivity, allowing rust, corrosion and rot to damage the caliper's pistons, seals and slides. Rotors can also be damaged with excessive rust if stored long long periods in moist conditions.
Tires and brakes are two things I tend to change a little early as opposed to getting the last ounce of value. Taking care of maintenance items, while at home, is so much easier than dealing with problems when on the road.

Larry

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #10 – December 13, 2010, 02:21:47 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119055

Thanks Larry. I'm changing my treminology from "pad life" to "usable pad remaining." ;>)

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #11 – December 14, 2010, 04:47:37 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119065

Quote

Being happy with the original brake's performance, I used the same pads the LD came with, Ford Super Duty pads. Found them at Rock Auto several months ago..

Disassembling the brakes, I found the front rotors deeply worn and covered with hundreds of micro-cracks. The front pads looked great with a third of the lining remaining.
The rear brakes were in better shape with rotors showing little wear, no scoring and fine for reuse. The rear caliper piston boots did show the effects of heat and were hard and cracked.
The rear pads were in good shape with a third of their lining remaining.
I picked up the needed front rotors, front and rear calipers plus wheel bearings, seals, grease and brake fluid at the local brake supply house.
I was a little stunned at the $800 price tag for just parts.
Who said RVing was cheap? Looking for the ibuprofen.
Larry

Hi Larry,
Great post about your brakes! Also a great job taking photos as your job progressed.
After brake pad discussions earlier this year, and over 85,000 miles on our 2003 rig, I had a Ford dealer install those same pads. My calipers and rotors were still in great shape so I didn't need to replace those. Rear pads and rotors had been replaced earlier (around 30,000 miles) and were found to be in good shape. I think you are going to like the new pads very much.
I have one question for you though. When you jack the front end up, are you placing your jack right under those front pins that stick out of axle? If you lift at those points, where are you placing your jack stands?

Thanks for sharing your many projects!

Steve K.

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #12 – December 14, 2010, 06:35:53 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119066

"When you jack the front end up, are you placing your jack right under those front pins that stick out of axle? If you lift at those points, where are you placing your jack stands?"

Steve K.
Yes, it was lifted at the pin, with the rolling jack close to the tire. A short jack stand was placed under the I-beam, next to the jack After both sides were lifted, the rolling jack was placed in the center, under both I-beams, to add a little more support and safety.
The front of the LD was lifted just enough to get the wheels off the pavement, eliminating having to lift the wheels on and off.
The rear was lift one wheel at a time, due to the greater weight. The rolling jack was not powerful enough to lift one side so a 12-ton bottle jack was used . A short jack stand and a 8-ton bottle jack were added before removing the wheel.
I knew I had to get under the rig and wanted to be triple sure it would be safe.
His is an active earthquake area.

Larry

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #13 – December 14, 2010, 09:24:24 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119068

As a safety reminder; as mentioned in an earlier post, make sure your jack stands are rated for the weight of your coach. Also, when lifting the rear of the coach make sure the front wheels are properly blocked as the parking brake only locks the back wheel…as soon as you raise the back she can roll!

Robert Britton

Hollister, California

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #14 – December 15, 2010, 10:01:53 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119080

" I picked up the needed front rotors, front and rear calipers plus wheel bearings, seals, grease and brake fluid at the local brake supply house"

Hey Larry, Great job as usual. I did quite a few Ford brake jobs years back on friends trucks and vans and I still can't get over that Ford uses those push pins to hold the calipers on. Being an engineer, I have a hard time with calipers not being bolted on.

Obviously it works, it is just a strange design to me.

Ramon

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #15 – December 15, 2010, 10:56:27 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119084

"when lifting the rear of the coach make sure the front wheels are properly blocked as the parking brake only locks the back wheel…as soon as you raise the back she can roll!"

Robert
You better believe the wheels were chocked. My driveway is on a slight slope and things roll away, when given a chance.
I occasionally find a socket that has rolled into the gutter.
Ford's E450 drive-shaft parking brake isn't as effective as conventional rear axle mounted parking brakes but it enable them to have a standardized parking brake, no matter how the buyer shortens or lengthens the frame.
FYI- LD's 31' models uses the same chassis as the 27' models. They cut the frame and extend it 4'.

Larry

Re: LD brake job or what I did this weekend

Reply #16 – December 15, 2010, 11:11:28 pm

Yahoo Message Number: 119085

"I still can't get over that Ford uses those push pins to hold the calipers on. Being an engineer, I have a hard time with calipers not being bolted on.

Ramon
The pins fit tightly and have spring-loaded clips, at each end, that prevent them from removing themselves. As long as they are lubed, all is good.
Pins seem a little archaic but seem to work as long as the rotor doesn't have to much lateral run-out.

Larry

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