Costs for solar upgrades? March 30, 2010, 10:52:41 am Yahoo Message Number: 111431Hi all, Dave and Mary in Death Valley here. I've been trying to follow the solar upgrades thread but due to very limited web access, it's been a little difficult. What I'd like to know, in just a really wide ballpark figure sort of way, is what I might expect in the way of cost to do a solar panel upgrade for my 2005 26' mid-bath. I've got 2 85 watt panels now, with 2 trojan T105's. I bought the rig used when it was 7 months old, and the panels were already installed (by the factory I assume). I know there are lots of variables involved, but given there is room and all, what can I expect an added 125 watt panel (what I assume is now the standard) installation to cost. I would probably add at least 1, preferably 2 batteries (type to be determined), probably upgrade my converter from the standard installed one. Before I fight the, "but honey, we really need this" battle, I'd love to get just and idea of the costs involved to see if I have any chance in moving forward. Any help?Thanks,David G.
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #1 – March 30, 2010, 11:12:27 am Yahoo Message Number: 111432QuoteI've got 2 85 watt panels now, with 2 trojan T105's. Make sure the new panel is compatible with the AM Solar panels that are now on your rig.I would probably add at least 1, preferably 2 batteries (type to be determined), probably upgrade my converter from the standard installed one. Since your current batteries are now at least 5 years old (assuming they're the originals), you'll want to replace them at the same time you add the new batteries. If you get 6-volt batteries, they'll have to be in pairs (2, 4, 6, ... ). If you use 12-volt batteries, you'll be able to use an odd number.Linda Hylton http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #2 – March 30, 2010, 11:34:29 am Yahoo Message Number: 111434One thing to do is to contact AM Solar - http://www.amsolar.com/%c2%a0- and ask them for a quote.Clarify your camping style: full-timers, dedicated boondockers, vacationeers only, etc. Be sure to get a good battery monitor for your house batteries.If you're thinking of an upgrade to two existing solar panels that somehow suggests AGM house batteries to me. But OTOH, I'm probably prejudiced towards them.With the four solar panels on our LD, and two 8D Lifeline AGMs (510 amp-hrs) we easily boondock a day or two - and probably more. But we have no TV. We do need 120v for air card and router to get Internet - and our 1300 watt inverter does that. For serious boondockers the more 12v appliances, and non-electric ones like a catalytic heater rather than LD's standard furnace, the better.best, paul ___ 'Thriving not Surviving' See our websites at www. LazyDazers.com www. Bike70th.net www. SMARTERyellowpages.com & www. ReformUSCongress.org
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #3 – March 30, 2010, 12:51:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111436Quote One thing to do is to contact AM Solar - http://www.amsolar.com/%c2%a0- and ask them for a quote.Clarify your camping style: full-timers, dedicated boondockers, vacationeers only, etc. Be sure to get a good battery monitor for your house batteries.If you're thinking of an upgrade to two existing solar panels that somehow suggests AGM house batteries to me. But OTOH, I'm probably prejudiced towards them. Yes, I do intend to eventually contact AM, but before I even did that, I was just wanting to know very ballpark numbers. The cost may far exceed what I would be willing to pay for such an upgrade. We tend to dry camp about 50% of the time. Our setup now is almost enough power to get us through the typical night. We like to watch the TV using the satellite dish and have a light on for reading. Most nights the T105's are about enough, but occasionally, if another light goes on, or the heater goes on, or we use the pump, it will cause the satellite receiver to quit. Too much power draw I guess, especially when the battery level gets a little lower. Usually the HPV-22B shows the level in the 12.40 range with everything on during the evenings. Lately, it's been happening more often with less draw, indicating our batteries are getting old - they don't seem to hold the charge as long. So we may just end up getting new batteries.
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #4 – March 30, 2010, 01:02:50 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111437Yes, I do intend to eventually contact AM, but before I even did that, I was just wanting to know very ballpark numbers. The cost may far exceed what I would be willing to pay for such an upgrade. The AM Solar website has prices for all of their equipment. Labor would be additional, of course, but if you intend to do the work yourself, you could get a pretty good idea of what the extra equipment would cost.Linda Hylton http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #5 – March 30, 2010, 02:23:52 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111441Here are a few suggestions, David. First, as others here have pointed out, it seems likely that your T-105 batteries are at or near the end of their lifespan. For that reason, I suggest you replace the batteries before doing anything else. That alone may eliminate, or greatly reduce, your lack-of-power problems in the evening. If after replacing the batteries you find that you aren't getting enough of a charge from your panels during the day, then consider replacing your solar charging controller. If you have 85W panels, then you most likely have the old, inefficient RV-30 controller. Replacing it with a Heliotrope HPV-22B from AM Solar, or one of the Blue Sky MPPT controllers mentioned here recently, will squeeze about 20% more power out of your existing panels at a fairly modest cost. For example, right now my five panels are delivering 19.3 amps to my controller. If I had the old RV-30 that came with my rig, that's what my batteries would be getting. But the MPPT circuitry in my HPV-30 controller is delivering 25.2 amps to my batteries. (This isn't magic; it's just converting excess voltage to usable amperage.) The HPV-22B works in exactly the same way to boost the amps coming from your panels. It's a cost-effective way to get more solar power without adding expensive panels. If you decide to add panels, bear in mind that your old 85W panels are 36-cell (18V) ones, whereas AM Solar only sells 44-cell (22V) panels. Mixing types won't do any harm, but it effectively throttles down the newer panels to the lower voltage of the older ones, so a significant fraction of their capacity is wasted. You have two choices: get rid of the old 85W panels (you can probably resell them) and start from scratch with all new 120W panels, or go to a vendor who sells 36-cell/18V panels (fairly common) and buy one or more of those to add to your existing 2 x 85W setup. Your converter, by the way, is a completely separate issue, since it's not involved in solar charging. It only functions when you're plugged into shore power or running your generator. I'm not trying to talk you out of replacing it with, say, a Progressive Dynamics 3-stage converter, as many in this group have done--just saying that doing so won't help you with solar power.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #6 – March 30, 2010, 02:26:21 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111442At 08:34 AM 3/30/2010, you wrote:QuoteWith the four solar panels on our LD, and two 8D Lifeline AGMs (510 amp-hrs) we easily boondock a day or two - and probably more. But we have no TV. We do need 120v for air card and router to get Internet - and our 1300 watt inverter does that. We have two solar panels, a TV, and I use the computer fairly regularly. Without being chintzy about it, we have boondocked for nearly a week without a problem; we only had to leave when our tanks were full.We have a satellite dish but never use it; the TV is for watching DVDs or local television only. We read in the evenings, I play on the computer and check email (when we are near a hotspot, as I have yet to get into the whole air card thing), we run the fantastic fans, use lights, and generally act like normal people. Of course, after about 20 years of this, our definition of "normal" is probably a lot more chary than it was when we first started! :-)Sonsie
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #7 – March 30, 2010, 04:09:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111444Do you have an inverter or are TV and computer 12v? If 12v, that's the way to go.best, paul ___ 'Thriving not Surviving' See our websites at www. LazyDazers.com www. Bike70th.net www. SMARTERyellowpages.com & www. ReformUSCongress.orgQuoteWe have two solar panels, a TV, and I use the computer fairly regularly. Without being chintzy about it, we have boondocked for nearly a week without a problem; we only had to leave when our tanks were full. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #8 – March 30, 2010, 04:13:52 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111445At 01:09 PM 3/30/2010, you wrote:QuoteDo you have an inverter or are TV and computer 12v? If 12v, that's the way to go. We have an inverter, and the television was factory-installed so I don't know which type it is (I suspect non-12v).Sonsie
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #9 – March 30, 2010, 04:20:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111446Quote Hi all,"Dave and Mary in Death Valley here. I've been trying to follow the solar upgrades thread but due to very limited web access, it's been a little difficult." David Last New Years I had a strong Internet connection at the Furnace Creek Visitors Center."Before I fight the, "but honey, we really need this" battle, I'd love to get just and idea of the costs involved to see if I have any chance in moving forward. Any help?"QuoteDavid G. Two years ago I had AM Solar (Springfield, OR) replace my two factory 85W panels with two of their 100W panels and the 22B controller. Sorry I can't quote a price as I seem to have misplaced my documents. I highly recommend the upgrade. Why don't you call them and get a quote?Steve S. Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #10 – March 30, 2010, 06:43:25 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111450I am trying to understand what the wall panel is telling me. The following comment from an earlier post is:Usually the HPV-22B shows the level in the 12.40 range with everything on during the evenings.Is the HPV-22 telling me that the battery voltage is 12.40? Can I use that as an indicator of the remaining charge life? Or is the HPV-22B reading telling me what the solar output is?Thanks Ed[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #11 – March 30, 2010, 09:24:24 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111457"Is the HPV-22 telling me that the battery voltage is 12.40?"Yes."Can I use that as an indicator of the remaining charge life?"Unfortunately, no. Exception: if there's no power going into the batteries (e.g., solar panels, shore power, generator, engine alternator), and there's no current being drawn from the batteries (e.g., lights, appliances, etc.) AND if this has been the case for at least 2-30 minutes, then you can extrapolate battery condition from voltage. But in the real world, you'd have to get up at 3:00 a.m. and read the voltmeter with a flashlight to meet those criteria. But during the day, the voltage fluctuates as you turn lights and appliances on and off, clouds pass across the sun, and so on. That makes the voltage reading useless as an indication of battery status. The only way to accurately know your batteries' charge state at any time, regardless of sun, appliance usage, etc. is a battery monitor such as a LinkPro. You can search this website's archives for more information about battery monitors.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #12 – March 30, 2010, 10:04:31 pm Yahoo Message Number: 111458Thanks Andy and others for the information and advise. I am always amazed at the knowledge and helpfulness of this group. My response to your suggestions are below.
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #13 – March 31, 2010, 12:23:48 am Yahoo Message Number: 111462"Would 2 120V panels be enough to charge either 3 AMG's or 4 T-105's reasonably quickly enough?" The rule of thumb for matching solar panels and batteries is "one amp-hour of battery capacity per watt of panel capacity." That's not carved in stone, of course. If you do a lot of camping in cloudy or heavily wooded areas where there's poor sunlight, you might want a higher ratio of panel watts to battery amp-hours in order to compensate. On the other hand, if you're a night owl who regularly stays up until two or three in the morning, you might want more battery capacity than the rule of thumb suggests. Using the "one watt per amp-hour" rule of thumb, two 120W panels (240 watts) would be somewhat less than you'd want for four T-105 batteries (450 amp hours)... unless you're a night owl. :-) With only two panels, your four batteries might never achieve a full charge, at least on sun power. I can't say for certain how they'd match up with three AGM batteries, because you didn't mention what size AGMs you have in mind. Assuming you used the fairly common Group 27 type, which store 105 amp hours apiece at 12 volts, you'd have 240W of panels and 315 Ah of batteries, so that would be a pretty good match. "I was under the impression [an upgraded converter] would help in efficiency for running plug-in items such as the satellite receiver." Ah, I understand now. You're talking about INverters rather than CONverters. These confusingly named devices do opposite jobs: an INverter changes 12 volt DC (battery power) to 120 volt AC (household current), while a CONverter changes 120VAC (from shore power or a generator) to 12VDC (to charge your batteries and light your lights). To answer your question, most "modified sine wave" inverters have the same efficiency: about 90%-95%. (The more expensive pure sine wave types are actually a bit less efficient.) The modified sine wave inverter that Lazy Daze installed in your coach is as efficient as you can get, so if it's adequate for your needs, there's no reason to change it. "Is this the case only for converters that are wired to power whole house?" A "whole house" inverter can actually be less efficient than a smaller one when it's idling or powering a small load. For most people, it's better to size the inverter to the expected load, rather than buy the largest possible unit.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Costs for solar upgrades? Reply #14 – March 31, 2010, 11:28:32 am Yahoo Message Number: 111468Once aga
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