A heater comparison question December 19, 2009, 03:55:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108649I've only heard about the Olympian Wave 3 or 6 being the best thing for inside RVs. I've also noticed that the Mr. Heater portable Buddy and the Little Buddy are also rated for inside use and have an oxygen shut off feature. Has anyone used these in LDs? Is something wrong with them as opposed to the Olympian? ? They are certainly cheaper than buying the Olympian and that is what makes me wonder. Any comments?Judy Wms.Blue '07 RB "Dog Daze"White '09 Scion "Puppy Daze"And all the fur kids[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #1 – December 19, 2009, 04:14:48 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108651QuoteI've only heard about the Olympian Wave 3 or 6 being the best thing for inside RVs. I've also noticed that the Mr. Heater portable Buddy and the Little Buddy are also rated for inside use and have an oxygen shut off feature. Has anyone used these in LDs? Is something wrong with them as opposed to the Olympian? ? There are lots of people who use other heaters besides catalytic heaters, including us.We used to use a Mr. Heater, but got tired of paying for the little disposable propane bottles. We currently have a blue flame heater, although we had an infra-red heater (brick) which I liked better and we may go back to the brick (infra-red) heater. As long as you leave a window and a ceiling vent open a crack, you'll have plenty of ventilation to run them...and as with any non-vented propane heater, including catalytic heaters, I wouldn't use them at night while sleeping. The biggest negative with a catalytic heater, IMO, is the pads are very expensive to replace...you can buy an infra-red or blue flame for almost what it costs to replace the pad on a catalytic heater.Linda Hylton http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #2 – December 19, 2009, 06:10:03 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108655"I've also noticed that the Mr. Heater portable Buddy and the Little Buddy are also rated for inside use and have an oxygen shut off feature." Catalytic heaters have two major advantages compared to radiant heaters such as the Portable Buddy or "blue flame" type. First, unless operated in a sealed space, cat heaters emit no carbon monoxide. By contrast, non-catalytic heaters emit CO constantly, no matter how you operate them. Yes, opening a window or vent lets some of it escape, but... Second, catalytic heaters operate at much lower temperatures (several hundred degrees F. instead of more than a thousand degrees), because no combustion takes place. This doesn't mean they put out less usable heat, but it does mean they're much less of a fire and burn hazard. If you have children or pets, that can be important. A casual brush against a cat heater isn't likely to hurt you. Not so with a radiant heater. With that said, I owned and used a Portable Buddy heater for a couple of years when I was traveling in Gertie, my 22' 1985 Twin/King. The furnace vent was positioned in such a way that it didn't do a very good job of heating the bathroom, so in order to be able to shower in comfort in the morning, I used the Portable Buddy to preheat the tiny room for five or ten minutes. I never felt very comfortable with it, though, and when I moved from Gertie to Skylark, I didn't take the Portable Buddy with me. In summary, while I won't try to tell you that a cheap radiant heater will kill you, it is definitely less safe than a catalytic heater. I wouldn't buy another non-catalytic propane heater.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #3 – December 19, 2009, 07:33:10 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108656QuoteI've only heard about the Olympian Wave 3 or 6 being the best thing for inside RVs. I've also noticed that the Mr. Heater portable Buddy and the Little Buddy are also rated for inside use and have an oxygen shut off feature. Has anyone used these in LDs? Is something wrong with them as opposed to the Olympian? ? They are certainly cheaper than buying the Olympian and that is what makes me wonder. Any comments? The catalytic heaters support a much slower, lower temperature burn, and the large area of the pad allows plenty of air surface for complete combustion. This is why CO production is negligible. CO forms when the reaction is too fast and in too confined an area to allow oxygen saturation. Just because all these types of heaters require ventilation for safe operation does not mean they are EQUALLY safe. Cats provide the best compromise between safety and efficiency. However, a heat exchanger system like the forced-air furnace is the safest, if least efficient, method of heating your LD with propane fuel. When dry-camped, this is the only heating appliance we use while sleeping.Steve
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #4 – December 19, 2009, 08:15:23 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108657The biggest negative with a catalytic heater, IMO, is the pads are very expensive to replace...you can buy an infra-red or blue flame for almost what it costs to replace the pad on a catalytic heater.Linda Hylton>>>>>>>>>>>>In summary, while I won't try to tell you that a cheap radiant heater will kill you, it is definitely less safe than a catalytic heater. I wouldn't buy another non-catalytic propane heater.Andy Baird>>>>>>>>>>>>Thank you both Linda and Andy for your input. That is exactly what I was wanting to know.Judy Wms.Blue '07 RB "Dog Daze"White '09 Scion "Puppy Daze"And all the fur kids[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #5 – December 19, 2009, 08:26:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108658Andy, Just to be pedantic for a moment, the reaction in a catalytic heater *is combustion*! It certainly consumes propane and oxygen and produces carbon dioxide and water and heat as combustion products. Even Olympian calls it "flameless combustion". See: http://www.camco.net/faqolympian.cfmBut, you're right on otherwise.Alex Rutchka
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #6 – December 19, 2009, 08:46:05 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108659I'm with Andy. I wouldn't even consider one of the flame things inside an RV.
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #7 – December 19, 2009, 11:42:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108664"Just to be pedantic for a moment, the reaction in a catalytic heater *is combustion*!" I would have said that what happens in a cat heater is *catalyzed oxidation*, but doesn't fit the traditional definition of combustion, which is generally synonymous with burning. However, I turned up this sentence in Wikipedia's definition of combustion: "Slow combustion is a form of combustion which takes place at low temperatures. Cellular respiration is an example of slow combustion." Now, if that's true, then catalytic heaters are also in the "slow combustion" category... so you're right, and I stand corrected. Still, the combustion temperature in a cat heater is much lower and safer than in a non-catalytic heater. Incidentally, those oxygen sensors that the non-catalytic Portable Buddy and "blue flame" type heaters brag about *don't* protect you from carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning. While it's true that the constant CO output of these heaters goes even higher when they're operated in an oxygen-starved environment (e.g., at high altitude), and the built-in O2 sensor will detect that situation, non-catalytic heaters *normally* emit a fair amount of CO. So does your oven, by the way--which is why the stove's instructions caution you not to use it as a heating device. I mention this to put things in perspective: baking a loaf of bread for an hour generates some CO, but I've never heard of anybody dying from it. (Just the same, I always crack a vent when baking.) And as Linda and Earl can testify, running an unvented non-catalytic heater isn't necessarily fatal either. But CO is so insidious a poison--it can sneak up on you so stealthily--that personally, I just don't like to take chances with it. So whether you feel safe using this type of heater is basically a question of your tolerance for risk. I do second Linda's recommendation never to use one overnight. Almost every year, a few campers die from doing that--no joke. I won't even run my cat heater overnight.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #8 – December 20, 2009, 06:35:04 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108676Question to All:Can anyone direct me to information/comparison, or expla
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #9 – December 20, 2009, 08:28:26 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108677Aaron, there are two classes of propane-powered heaters: vented and unvented. Your rig's standard furnace is vented; that means its combustion gases, including poisonous carbon monoxide (CO), are sent outside. That makes it very safe, but not very efficient, because about half of the heat produced goes outside with the flue gases, instead of warming your coach. As you know, the furnace is also noisy and uses a significant amount of battery power. For all these reasons, many of us have sought out alternatives: various kinds of unvented radiant heaters. The majority of catalytic, "blue flame," and "brick" heaters--the ones we've been discussing here, at any rate--belong to this class of unvented propane heaters. Because these heaters are not vented to the outside, all the heat generated stays in the coach, so they're quite efficient. Most unvented heaters are primarily radiant. That is, they don't have blowers to move the air around; instead, they heat the objects directly in front of them, just as a fireplace does. No blower means no noise and no battery drain, but less effective distribution of heat. As I explained in a recent message, the heated objects do heat the adjacent air, so eventually the overall air temperature increases, but the main effect of a radiant heater is localized--it won't do a good job of heating your whole coach, any more than a fireplace will heat your whole house. In short, none of these unvented radiant heaters is a complete substitute for your furnace. They are, however, useful as secondary heat sources in mild weather, especially because they are silent, efficient, and draw no battery power. Unvented radiant heaters fall into two categories: catalytic and non-catalytic. Catalytic heaters are almost all made by Olympian, who offer 3,000, 6,000, and 8,000 BTU models under the Wave 3, Wave 6 and Wave 8 product names. The consensus of this group is that the Wave 3 model is most appropriate for Lazy Daze owners. Non-catalytic heaters include "blue flame" heaters, "brick" heaters (the Mr. Heater brand "Portable Buddy" is one example), heaters commonly described as "radiant" or "infrared," etc. As I've explained in previous messages, in normal operation catalytic heaters are safer because they emit no carbon monoxide, and they run at lower temperatures, so they present less risk of accidental skin burns or fire. But they cost more, because they use a small amount of platinum to catalyze the propane's low-temperature combustion. Non-catalytic unvented heaters such as the "Portable Buddy," "brick," and "blue flame" types cost about half as much as comparable catalytic heaters, but must be used with extreme care because they constantly emit poisonous carbon monoxide. Always open a vent or window to provide fresh oxygen and let carbon monoxide escape. (Since CO is lighter than air, it heads for the ceiling, so opening a vent is better than opening a window.) And never leave the heater running while someone is sleeping. Even though catalytic heaters don't normally emit CO, most of us who use them follow the same rules: open a window or vent at least an inch, and never run the heater overnight. I hope this has answered your basic questions. After reading this, you may want to reread earlier messages (search the archives to find the relevant discussions) to get more detailed information.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #10 – December 21, 2009, 08:14:58 am Yahoo Message Number: 108683QuoteCan anyone direct me to information/comparison, or explain to me (and maybe a few others), the advantages and disadvantages of certain types of heaters. The more that I follow the discussion (and I have no experience with any of the heaters mentioned) the more confused I get. Perhaps your question is 'how do all the discussed issues affect my decision to purchase?'. The answer depends then on what use you intend for your LD. Bottom line, if you are concerned about safety and like your LD shut down tight in cold weather, and particularly if you tend to be forgetful, then stick with the built-in furnace or an electric heater. You will then need to stay in sites with electric in cold weather. Completely safe? No, something could still fall against a cube heater and smolder or ignite, and you could forgetfully open a window adjacent to the furnace exhaust port... If you always like at least a little ventilation, and possess at least an average memory capability, then you should be pretty safe with a catalytic heater. This will allow you to stray away from that electrical umbilical, and its silent operation is a boon. Although the heater is just as safe while you sleep as when you are awake, your responses are not. Should an object fall against the heater, it is unlikely it will ignite, but it could tend to 'smother' the combustion process, producing a measurable level of CO. If you are relying on a covered open vent to provide the ventilation, and a heavy snowfall blocks that, CO2 levels could rise, with the danger of asphyxiation. Etc. Thus, most of us have elected to use a cat heater, but to restrict the risk by only using it during waking hours. The other unvented heaters all fall into the same category as your stove or oven. They can be used inside the coach, but since they produce CO, their time of operation should be limited, even while you are awake, to be safe. Another disadvantage with most is that they are designed to be run from a high-pressure propane source, such as a disposable cylinder. This improves mobility, but leaks are an additional danger used in a confined space. These disadvantages make the extra price of the cat heater worth it by comparison, again, to most of us. So, which system to go with is the choice only you can make, because you know yourself and your habits.Steve
Re: A heater comparison question Reply #11 – December 21, 2009, 12:27:29 pm Yahoo Message Number: 108685Quote Aaron, there are two classes of propane-powered heaters: vented and unvented. Very nice summary, Andy. You might put it in the archives for future reference as this topic will undoubtably return over and over. -- Jon
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