on the verge of buying.... May 25, 2009, 08:25:52 pm Yahoo Message Number: 102585Hello all... I have been lurking in this group for a while. One day I realized I hadn't yet become a member and just recently did so. My partner and I looked at a Lazy Daze today that is for sale...It's a '92 22 front lounge design with 81k miles. We like it ... like everything in this world there are pros and cons. Personally, I'm struggling with the price. I'm not sure if the price that is being asked for is a fair price. I've looked in the NADA books and the price is much lower. Now I know there are many, many variables involved in determining a price but how do I know if the price is higher due to sentimental value? I'm talking about a difference of about $5000. The owner didn't know but is there anyone else on these boards who has a 1992 22ft and can you tell me the approximate unloaded vehicle weight? I'd like to figure out some kind of cargo carrying capacity...if I have a lot of weight to work with, then that is a plus. If I don't have a lot to work with and the price (in my inexperienced opinion) is high, then that is two things not looking good.Any advice is greatly appreciated.Kari
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #1 – May 25, 2009, 11:33:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 102592Kari, welcome to the group! :-) I'll repeat here some of the things I said in private email, because they might be of interest to others looking at older rigs. OK, to review, we're talking about a 1992 22' Front Lounge on a Chevy 350 chassis. The following numbers are from LD's 1992 spec sheet, courtesy of Terry Tanner's Techsnoz archives. The GVWR (maximum total weight) for that Chevy chassis is 10,5000 pounds. The dry weight for a 1992 Front Lounge is 8,076 pounds. That leaves 2,424 pounds for liquids, passengers and supplies. That sounds like a lot, but wait: liquids include 56 gallons of water (465 pounds), 50 gallons of gasoline (300 pounds), and 10 gallons of propane (42 pounds). That's 807 pounds you must subtract from the 2,424, leaving 1,617 pounds for you two, your two dogs, and all your belongings. So assuming you and the dogs weigh about 400 pounds total (you can correct that, of course, knowing the actual weights), you're talking about a usable cargo capacity of roughly 1,200 pounds. That may sound like a lot, and in fact it'll be fine for camping. But unless you live exceptionally ascetic lives, it probably won't be enough for fulltiming. "I'm not sure if the price that is being asked for is a fair price. I've looked in the NADA books and the price is much lower." You didn't mention the details in your post, but the rig in question has a new refrigerator (worth about $1,200) and new tires (worth $800-$1,200 depending on brand), an IntelliPower converter with Charge Wizard (worth a few hundred), new water pump, water heater, toilet, escape hatch, and other upgrades. Bear in mind that the NADA price is a very rough estimate, and the older the rig, the more uncertainty there is in that estimate. Then add in all the new and "newer" stuff on the rig (e.g., newer batteries)... and finally, of course, consider the condition, the availability of service records, and so on. You may find the asking price is not as unreasonable as you thought.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #2 – May 26, 2009, 09:19:16 am Yahoo Message Number: 102597wrote: It's a '92 22 front lounge design with 81k miles. --- If you're a first-time RV buyer, you might want to get this e-book: http://www.rverscorner.com/dummyltr.htmlYes, it's $27.00, but the information that you learn from this will go a long way toward helping you evaluate your choices. The book details potential "trouble spots" that many folks wouldn't have the experience to look for. Also, how do you plan to use this rig? Weekends? Occasional one-or two-week trips? Longer travels? Fulltiming? If fulltiming is your intent, a rig with over 80,000 miles on it already (and in unknown condition) might be a less-than-wise choice. I don't know anything about the longevity and reliability of the Chevy engine; hopefully, some owners of older rigs with this engine can offer some information. At the least, if you think that this is the rig for you, you might want to hire an RV tech to do a complete inspection of the "box" and all the appliances, and a Chevy mechanic to evaluate the engine and systems; this will cost a bit up front, but, IMO, a little money spent to independently evaluate the condition of the rig (especially a 17-year-old rig with over 80,000 miles) is well worth it, and could save you a few expensive "surprises" down the line. YMMV.Joan
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #3 – May 26, 2009, 10:58:22 am Yahoo Message Number: 102598Last night I wrote "The GVWR (maximum total weight) for that Chevy chassis is 10,5000 pounds." I meant 10,500--sorry for the typo! I agree with Joan's suggestion that having the coach evaluated by a mechanic is a very good idea. It can save you from expensive surprises later on... and anything s/he finds wrong can be used as a lever to bargain the price down.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #4 – May 26, 2009, 04:01:46 pm Yahoo Message Number: 102605Joan I would like your opinion on what is a good amount of miles for a full timer to beg
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #5 – May 26, 2009, 04:39:13 pm Yahoo Message Number: 102607nancy... dont let miles be the considering factor.. take maintenance and record keeping a high priorty.. and have someone qualified to take a look at it.. just because a rig has 25-30k miles doesnt mean it will be a better buy than one with 60-70k miles.. just depends on how it was maintained.. i bought mine with 42k original miles but it is a 94 model.. still needed some attention but i was able to do the work, i am mechanically inclined and work on vehicles
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #6 – May 26, 2009, 08:20:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 102612I'd like to say thanks to those who have replied. It is greatly appreciated! This whole process is a bit nerve wracking for us. More so me, I think. I'm so analytical and it's difficult to figure out the price for this rig. I guess I would love to hear former or current chevy 350 chassis owners - what seems to be a ball park average mileage for that engine? I'm fearful to dish out a chunk of change only to find out I'll need a rebuilt engine or something major like that in the near future. I know I carry that risk in ANY used vehicle - but all I can see flashing in the back of my brain is that this is 17...going on 18 years old rig. Zoinks!Thanks!Kari
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #7 – May 26, 2009, 09:26:30 pm Yahoo Message Number: 102617"I would love to hear former or current chevy 350 chassis owners - what seems to be a ball park average mileage for that engine?" There's a "Gas Mileage Survey" page in our website's database section, with data from many owners. As a former 350 Chevy owner, I can tell you that you'll probably average 8 mpg on level roads, and a bit less when climbing mountains and/or towing. That may sound horrible, but even the latest Ford-based class C motorhomes only get 10 mpg. My advice is not to worry too much about fuel mileage. Unless you're hyperenergetic, like our 4,000-mile-a-month moderator Tessa, you probably won't be driving every day, nor driving hundreds of miles a day when you do. Most of us have found that the key to enjoyable RVing is learning to slow down and enjoy the trip, stopping anytime we see something interesting, and staying in one place long enough to get to know the area, rather than rushing from campground to campground to campground. It's more relaxing, it's more fun... and it's a LOT less expensive! For more thoughts on this topic, see my article "Saving the Earth at 8 mpg," which explains how RVing can actually be a "greener" lifestyle than living in a brick-and-mortar house:http://www.andybaird.com/travels/saving-the-earth.htm> And if you'll look at my latest "Skylarking" article, "The Cost of Freedom," you'll see that even for a fulltimer like me, gasoline is a only minor budget item:http://www.andybaird.com/travels/skylarking/2009/budget.htm> Using your Vibe to run errands and explore will save you even more on fuel--instead of driving your 8 mpg coach into town to get groceries, the way I used to have to do with my 1985 LD "Gertie," you'll drive your 30+ mpg Vibe. All in all, your rig's fuel economy just isn't going to make a big difference in your life.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #8 – May 26, 2009, 09:36:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 102618Kari, in rereading your post I see that I misinterpreted your question about mileage--you wanted to know how long the engine will last, not how many miles per gallon of gas it would get. Well, we don't have a survey on that, but generally speaking, I'd say the Chevy 350 should be good for about 150,000 miles, assuming it's given reasonable care. It's a workhorse, in other words. All engines have weak points; the Chevy 350's are 1) a tendency to throw belts (especially the hydro boost pump belt), 2) a right-hand exhaust manifold that's prone to cracking (but third-party replacements are designed to avoid this problem); and 3) a tendency to "cook" the starter motor due to the close quarters under the hood, so that it will start when cold but not when hot. (Third-party insulation kits are available to reduce this problem.) Understand, I'm not saying any of these are major problems that happen frequently--just that IF you're going to have a problem with this engine, these are the most likely ones. The good news is that major, expensive problems such as broken connecting rods or damaged transmissions are rare. Overall, it's a reliable engine.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #9 – May 26, 2009, 11:59:40 pm Yahoo Message Number: 102626thanks Joan. I did know you were mechanically inclined and work on vehicles--that's why I asked you specifically. Nancy__
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #10 – May 27, 2009, 12:47:52 am Yahoo Message Number: 102627"I guess I would love to hear former or current chevy 350 chassis owners - what seems to be a ball park average mileage for that engine? "Kari The 350 V-8 is a wonderful, long lasting engine in a light or medium weight vehicle. They do not last as long in a 10,000+ lbs LD since the small engine is worked hard pushing so much weight around. A 1992 model does have the advantage of having an overdrive transmission and fuel injection, which should help extend the engine's life. Still, you cannot expect it to last as long as the large V-10s used in the later models. Do you have the maintenance records from the previous owners showing regular oil changes? This is probably the biggest factor in determining potential condition other than a through check by a competent mechanic. A properly maintained cooling system is the other big factor contributing to a long life. Our 1983 LD had 50,000 miles on it's 350 V-8 when we bought it in 1995 and it came with records showing 3000 miles oil change intervals. I continued this interval using Mobil 1 synthetic oil. I also installed a bigger radiator and a water sprayer to help with cooling. At 90,000 miles the engine needed a timing chain and rod bearings. A worn timing chain, at 90,000 miles, is not considered to be abnormal for the 350. Timing chain wear can be determined by checking free play in the distributor. At the same time I checked the main and rod bearings and found the rod bearings to be worn and at the end of their service life. At 110,000 miles, the engine was burning over a quart of oil per thousand miles and that is when we sold the LD, replacing it with a new 2003 model with a Ford V-10. The large V-10 is a much better engine for use in an RV and should have a much longer life. If buying a used RV, I would continue to save until I could afford a V-10 model in good condition. Based on my personal and professional experience with 350s and after talking with many older LD owners, I would say a 100-110,000 miles is an average life for a 1992 LD's 350. Many die at a much younger age and a few last longer. The 4L80E transmission should have about the same lifespan if serviced regularly. Make sure to also have it checked before buying. YMMVLarry Retired mechanic/ mechanical supervisor, City of LA
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #11 – May 27, 2009, 06:49:35 am Yahoo Message Number: 102630THanks Andy and Larry - There are very few records...like two. When we asked for more info about this the owner stated they she bought it in '06...there were possible two or three owners before her. I'm really leery without the records. I know that when vehicles exchange hands there is a risk of losing paperwork. This feels like a gigantic risk to take. We are going to take it to a mechanic and have it checked out as well as weighed to determine the unloaded weight since I don't know how accurate the manufacturer specs are since there have been modifications over the years. I greatly appreciate everything everyone is sharing though - it's very helpful!Kari
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #12 – May 27, 2009, 11:24:47 am Yahoo Message Number: 102636"At 110,000 miles, the [1983 Chevy 350 V8] engine was burning over a quart of oil per thousand miles and that is when we sold the LD... I would say a 100-110,000 miles is an average life for a 1992 LD's 350. Many die at a much younger age and a few last longer." Larry has more experience than I do in this realm. When I bought my 1985 LD in 2001, the coach already had 110,000 miles on it, but the engine had been replaced at about 30,000 miles after the original owners let the oil run dry. I put another 20,000 or so on it in the ensuing five years, and as my friend Erik can testify, it's still running. During the time I owned it, I replaced the starter, the right exhaust manifold, and several belts... in addition to routine maintenance, of course. Even with 100,000 miles on the engine, it wasn't burning oil in the way Larry's did. But perhaps I was just lucky. Bear in mind that the average RV is driven about 6,000 miles a year. (Even as a fulltimer, I do less than that.) You already know that you aren't going to be fulltiming in this coach, so if you get serious and take the plunge, you'll likely be replacing it. But if you consider this coach to be a "starter" RV, and you accept Larry's estimate of 100,000-110,000 miles before the engine needs serious work, it's good for at least a few years, and that's all you need. It's all a question of how sure you are that you'll like RVing and how big your budget is. If you're certain, and you have lots of money, then you can buy a new or recent 27' or 31' LD and keep it for decades. If your budget is limited, you can buy an older rig. Or you could save up for years for a newer one--but I don't advise that, because you'll be missing years of enjoyable traveling! :-) This particular coach, or one like it--older, low in cost--represents an affordable way to try out RVing... then you can step up to something newer, larger, and better, as I did when I traded Gertie for Skylark.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #13 – May 27, 2009, 11:38:58 am Yahoo Message Number: 102640"This particular coach, or one like it--older, low in cost--represents anaffordable way to try out RVing."Please do have both the coach and drive train checked out by knowledgeable mechanics to help prevent unwanted surprises. A few hundred dollars upfront can save you thousands later. Make sure to have a couple thousand dollars in reserve to cover the problems that are present in almost all used RVs.Have fun. Larry
Re: on the verge of buying.... Reply #14 – May 27, 2009, 04:00:13 pm Yahoo Message Number: 102647Some corrections and clarifications to my previous posts about the 1992 Front Lounge that Kari is looking at. First, the 1992 coach has both electronic fuel injection and overdrive, which most Chevy-based LDs (including my '85, Gertie) did not. Thus it would be reasonable to expect more than the 8 mpg I quoted... probably more like 10 mpg on average. Second, in the 80s when Gertie was built, the Chevy chassis' standard fuel tank held 25 gallons, but a 50-gallon tank was optional. I was under the impression that 50-gallon tanks had become standard by 1992, but I was wrong; this coach has the 25-gallon tank. That adds 150 pounds to its cargo capacity. :-) Third, I stated that the coach's propane tank held 10 gallons. That is its rated capacity according to Lazy Daze's 1992 spec sheet, but in actuality the tank should never be filled to more than 80%, so the *usable* capacity is 8 gallons.Sorry for the misinformation!Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
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