Frozen battery January 23, 2005, 08:20:14 am Yahoo Message Number: 49776Yesterday morning, with a blizzard on the way, I went out to move Gertie off the street so the plows could get through. I knew the truck battery was low--Gertie sits unused for months at a time in the winter, and I had done a quick check last week and saw that I only had two lights out of three on my little gauge. (Should have used my multimeter, but I was in a hurry, it was getting dark and it was COLD!) Well, to make a long story short, I could barely get the engine to turn over at all, let alone start, with my portable 21 Ah powerpack, with jumper cables from the house batteries (which I've done before), or with jumper cables from a friend's car. Pulled the battery out and brought it inside to charge...turned out the electrolyte was frozen solid! Apparently it had discharged far enough that a few days of 15-20° F. temperatures froze it up completely. I decided the old Diehard was probably permanently damaged by the combination of discharge and freezing (somebody tell me if I was wrong about that), so I went to Sears and bought an Optima AGM battery--I didn't even know they carried them!--which started up Gertie almost instantly. Got her moved to a safe spot, and now she's sitting under a foot of snow, poor thing. I will be exercising her at last every other week from now on!Moral: batteries are like muscles--use 'em or lose 'em. Of course, once I go fulltime, this won't be a problem--Gertie won't sit unused for months, and I won't be spending much if any time in bitterly cold winter weather! :-) One thing I noticed in the course of this little episode: with jumper-cable clamps, it was almost impossible to get a good electrical contact on the side terminals of the battery I had before. They are 5/16" threaded studs, so no matter what you do, your clamps are only gripping a couple of skinny threads. The result was that not much juice got through, and the clamps got hot enough to singe their paint. The new Optima battery I put in has both screw-in side terminals *and* conventional top terminals--big lead posts--so that if I ever need to jump-start it, I'll be able to get a good solid connection to those top posts.Andy Baird
Re: Frozen battery Reply #1 – January 23, 2005, 08:29:18 am Yahoo Message Number: 497771. Never jump start a frozen battery. It probably will explode. 2. A charged battery will not freeze.
Re: Frozen battery Reply #2 – January 23, 2005, 10:36:26 am Yahoo Message Number: 49779Quote 1. Never jump start a frozen battery. It probably will explode. 2. A charged battery will not freeze. A charged battery *will* freeze, it just takes a much colder temperature to do it. So, keeping your batteries charged is like adding antifreeze to water. You are correct that you should not attempt to jump a frozen battery.bumper
Re: Frozen battery Reply #3 – January 23, 2005, 10:40:42 am Yahoo Message Number: 49780You are correct but few of us will ever see temps low enough to freeze a fully charged battery. During severe cold snaps
Re: Frozen battery Reply #4 – January 23, 2005, 10:46:22 am Yahoo Message Number: 49781Quote You are correct but few of us will ever see temps low enough to freeze a fully charged battery. During severe cold snaps in Minnesota or North Dakota, maybe. Bob,Agreed. A good link for info on this is the first paragraph of: http://www.solareco.com/articles/article.cfm/id/42It's remarkable how quickly the freeze point temperature goes up as a battery's state of charge declines!all the best,bumper
Re: Frozen battery Reply #5 – January 23, 2005, 10:54:41 am Yahoo Message Number: 49783Good article. It says a fully charged battery can freeze at -40 F. That's actual temperature, not wind chill. I was in Rochester Minn when the actual temp hit -40. My Hertz car, which had been parked overnight at my motel, would not even twitch.
Re: Frozen battery Reply #6 – January 23, 2005, 02:17:27 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49788"1. Never jump start a frozen battery. It probably will explode." Wow! Thanks, Bob--I didn't know that. Of course I didn't realize the battery was frozen until I had brought it inside after several failed jump-starting attempts. I should have checked the electrolyte before I even tried to jump start it. Live and learn!"2. A charged battery will not freeze." I knew that a discharged state makes it pretty easy for a battery to freeze, but (stupidly) trusting my little three-LED gauge, which showed two lights, I believed that it was at least half charged. Next time I'll use a DMM. What are the freezing characteristics of an AGM battery? Same as flooded-cell types? I did note that Optima's website (http://tinyurl.com/4c3sa>) says "Ideal for seasonal use; fully charged, it can sit unused for up to 12 months at room temperature (or below) and still start a car." But that says nothing about low temperatures, of course.Andy Baird
Re: Frozen battery Reply #7 – January 23, 2005, 07:12:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49790I don't know anything about AGMs ... just water wet cell batteries. My guess is all batteries should be kept as fully charged as possible where temps can fall below freezing.
Re: Frozen battery Reply #8 – January 23, 2005, 07:31:40 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49793QuoteWhat are the freezing characteristics of an AGM battery? Same as flooded-cell types? I didQuotenote that Optima's website () says "Ideal for seasonal use; fully Quotecharged, it can sit unused for up to 12 months at room temperature (or below) and still Quotestart a car." But that says nothing about low temperatures, of course. Andy,I found the below quote during a Google search on AGM batteries and freezing:Art "Since all the electrolyte (acid) is contained in the glass mats, they cannot spill, even if broken. This also means that since they are non-hazardous, the shipping costs are lower. In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, they are practically immune from freezing damage."
Re: Frozen battery Reply #9 – January 23, 2005, 09:04:36 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49799That information alone would seem to be a justification for AGM batteries, especially in cold climate areas."Since all the electrolyte (acid) is contained in the glass mats, they cannot spill, even if broken. ... In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, they are practically immune from freezing damage."
Re: Frozen battery Reply #10 – January 23, 2005, 09:21:52 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49800"In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, [AGM batteries] are practically immune from freezing damage." Great! Thanks for the tip, Art. I will in any case avoid letting the new battery get run down, for all the usual good reasons, but this makes me feel even better about my purchase. :-)Andy Baird
Re: Frozen battery Reply #11 – January 24, 2005, 02:42:39 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49817On the subject of AGM batteries, I know very little about these things, but in my web site travels I came across this information that you all might find helpful. "The advantages of AGM batteries are that they require no maintenance, withstand shock and vibration better than any standard battery, are sealed against hydrogen leakage and spilling even if they are broken, and can survive most freezes. AGM batteries are "recombinant" - which means the oxygen and hydrogen recombine inside the battery. The recombining is typically more than 99% efficient, so almost no water is lost. Since the internal resistance is extremely low, there is almost no heating of the battery even under heavy charge and discharge currents. AGM batteries have a very low self-discharge rate of only 1-3% per month, so they can sit in storage for long periods without discharging. " This is quoted from the Earthroamer web site (http:www.earthroamer.com), which I have found very interesting. It sounds like AGM batteries have a lot to recommend them. I have also been reading online about smart fuel cells, which seem to be a new technology that is starting to break into the marine/RV area. Maybe we'll all be powering up with these down the road.LiviaQuote "In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, [AGM batteries] are practically
Re: Frozen battery- Fuel cells Reply #12 – January 24, 2005, 08:09:53 pm Yahoo Message Number: 49837"I have also been reading online about smart fuel cells, which seem to be a new technology that is starting to break into the marine/RV area. Maybe we'll all be powering up with these down the road."LiviaFuel cells someday will change boondocking forever and will give us clean, quiet power, even at night or in the rain. Solar panel promise us this but the can fail miserably in the winter, just when you need the most power. The SFC A50 Smart Fuel Cell is expensive and it uses a hard to get fuel, methanol, but this is only the beginning. The sailing community is going to love this system. They can remove their generators and reduce the size of the batteries. Even at a cost of $5000 and the expense of the sealed fuel cans; they are still attractive to long distance sailors. The SFC A50 is a smart, methanol-powered battery charger that can produce 100 amp hours a day of 12 VDC power. It used about 1.3 litters of methanol per 1000 watts of energy production. It cannot run an A/C unit. See http://www.smartfuelcell.de/en/presse/c041026.htmlColeman has a hydrogen fuel cell generator that has been sold for a year or two. It has been marketed as a UPS for computer systems. Hydrogen is not readily available but stations are slowly starting to show up. We have a new BP hydrogen station near where I work. The Coleman unit produces 1200 watts, enough to run a small A/C unit, using an inverter to help start the A/C. It may be a long time before hydrogen is practical for RV usage but you never know what innovation is going to show up tomorrow. See http://fuelcellstore.com/products/ballard/airgen.htmlLarry Waiting patiently for a propane fuel cell, designed for RV usage.
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