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Electrical issues
Great forum here. I own a 2005 RB with solar which has developed an issue. Our Trojan batteries are older and are testing very weak at the battery themselves but they had been working fine with absolutely no problems.  (We will be replacing them this week in case it helps.)  I had tried to clean up some ragged, exposed and poorly organized wires up at radio or CB antenna on the roof. The previous owner may have added a component that I have yet to identify clearly. I attempted to carefully separate wires to wrap with electrical tape.  Everything still worked fine in the coach when I left it for the day. 

Next morning, the propane detector was shrilly beeping. I pulled the radio and CB fuse to see if I had tripped anything or if there was an overnight drain on the batteries but the fuses check out as good. We ran the engine awhile and left the motorhome with power to the coach and the solar controller panel seeming to be working. Next morning, same thing. Propane detector signaling low voltage. Started engine up again, 12v coach power went back on and we left.

Next day, however, all 12v power in the coach was gone- not even enough for the propane detector or solar charge controller panel. So now for many days, all power is gone in the coach until we start the engine - then everything  is powered on immediately. Turn engine off, the solar controller panel will stay on and will work for many, many hours along with all overhead lights, fans, etc. Then, later in the day, everything cuts out again..... until you start the Ford engine again to trigger it back on.

Also... We were always able to start the generator from inside the coach. Now, the vehicle engine must be running to use the inside switch. Even so, with the generator running, 12v power restored to the inside coach and the solar controller panel lit, the generator and everything else just immediately cuts off if you turn the truck ignition off. All power is cut off to the coach again and the truck engine must be started again to even get the solar controller panel to have a read-out again or to power the propane detector.

Can someone help explain what is going on and why the generator won't even stay running when the vehicle engine is turned off. Does that still need some component of the coach 12v system to allow it to continue running? I understand why the electric start switch inside wouldn't work but why would the generator cut out even after it has been started?

Some further info is: We seem to have power to both sides of the shortstop "hidden" breaker under the dinette seat if I tested correctly- at least while the batteries are being charged by the solar controller. I haven't tested that site while coach power was cut off yet. Also, the range hood monitor keeps reading that the batteries are fully charged even though you think it would be reading as weak. I have tried flipping the convertor circuit breaker just to see if it helped.  As an aside, we will be having the isolator tested just in case I damaged something messing with the antenna wires. I'll be getting help for that as I'm not positive how to do it.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.


2003 26.5' RB

 
Re: Electrical issues
Reply #1

Let's start with the generator. Its starter motor is powered from the house batteries, so if those are drained, the generator won't start. However, running the truck engine sends power from its alternator to the house batteries, so that's why you can start the generator in that scenario.

"why would the generator cut out even after it has been started?"

That I don't know. Maybe somebody else does?

"the range hood keeps reading that the batteries are fully charged even though you think it would be reading as weak."

That's a puzzle. The range hood LEDs are not very accurate, but if the batteries are really dead (all 12 V circuits dead), I wouldn't expect those LEDs to work either. Of course they'll light up when either the truck engine or the solar controller are sending 12 V power back to the coach. They don't know the batteries' actual condition; just what the voltage in the whole system is at a given time. (See below for the way to know the batteries' actual state of charge.)

"The previous owner may have added a component that I have yet to identify clearly."

If you can upload a photo, we may be able to recognize it.

General advice: replacing the house batteries is definitely a good idea. After you do that, however, you'll need to find out whether they are being charged correctly by the engine and by the solar controller... and whether something is draining them overnight. I assume you already have a digital multimeter; if not, they're not expensive.

But although I hate to tell you to buy more equipment, you really need a good battery monitor to see what's going on. Those LEDs on the stove hood not only aren't accurate, they can't tell you how much power is flowing into or out of your batteries. With a smart battery monitor, you'd be able to spot any drains instantly.

There are two good candidates, both from Victron. A popular one is their BMV-712 Battery Monitor, which includes a display panel that can read out things like your house batteries' state of charge in percentage--not just red/yellow/green!--and amps in and out of your batteries. It also has Bluetooth, so that you can read all the information from the free VictronConnect app on your phone, tablet, or PC (iOS/Mac/Android/Windows apps are available).

The other possibility is Victron's SmartShunt Battery Monitor, which is a Bluetooth-only product that does everything the BMV-712 does, but has no display panel. It's a simpler installation, since you won't have to find a place to mount a display, or run a cable to it. But you'll be relying on your phone, tablet, or computer to read what's going on via the VictronConnect app. It's your choice.

Either way, there's some wiring involved: the shunt that measures all those amps in and out has to be connected between your house batteries' negative post and all your grounds. Depending upon how comfortable you are with wiring, you may want to have a service person do that job. It's very straightforward.

Sorry if that sounds like a sale pitch. :-) But without a smart battery monitor like the two mentioned, you're really in the dark as to how your whole 12 VDC system is functioning. I know--I was in that situation for years, and I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out what was going on until I got a shunt-based smart battery monitor.

So if I were you, I'd first replace the house batteries, then install a smart battery monitor, and take it from there.

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #2
Thanks for the reply. We will definitely want to monitor the new set of batteries closely to make sure any of these issues will not affect them, so thanks for the suggestions. 

Any ideas why the 12v coach system can be up and running for many hours without the engine running but after it cuts off later, it never comes back up unless we start the engine again? The generator cutting out is also concerning. Why would it need the 12v coach power to continue to run? Also, I forgot to say... We've been getting a very short shrill chirp when turning the ignition key or attempting to use the inside generator start switch. Thanks again for your help.



2003 26.5' RB

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #3
The other possibility is Victron's SmartShunt Battery Monitor, which is a Bluetooth-only product that does everything the BMV-712 does, but has no display panel. It's a simpler installation, since you won't have to find a place to mount a display, or run a cable to it. But you'll be relying on your phone, tablet, or computer to read what's going on via the VictronConnect app. It's your choice.

There is another version that is moisture and dust resistant for the same price.  Looks like the better deal as they appear to be identical otherwise:

Amazon.com: Victron Energy SmartShunt IP65 Battery Monitor (Bluetooth) -...
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #4
Lori, that photo looks like the base of the CB antenna, with wiring in even-worse-than-usual condition. The sun rots the coaxial CB cable after a few years. Mine (2003 midbath) looked similar.

If you don't have a CB radio, you can ignore it. (If you do, you should replace that whole assembly, including the cable, before you turn on the radio. Those wires are seriously shorted, and trying to put power through them could damage the radio's transmitter section.)

I'd be worried about what looks like a triangular area of bare wood visible behind the antenna in your photo. Bare wood should never be visible on a Lazy Daze's roof. If that's what it is, you need to dry it out, then seal it up... and check the areas of the overcab ceiling beneath it for moisture and/or rot.

"We've been getting a very short shrill chirp when turning the ignition key or attempting to use the inside generator start switch."

One reason for that could be the propane detector. It's powered by 12 VDC, and it can chirp when voltage is low, or when power has been off and is restored. Just a guess.

"The generator cutting out is also concerning. Why would it need the 12v coach power to continue to run?"

That I don't know, but hopefully somebody else will chime in with an answer.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #5
 I thought at first that it was the CB antenna and then for some reason decided it was the radio antenna. The wiring seemed more convoluted than what deteriorated co-axial cable would look like but what you say makes sense. There is a CB in the coach but it has never been used by us yet. I will pull the fuse until the wires are repaired so it doesn't accidentally get turned on. I couldn't figure out a good ground point in that corner of the roof to use for a voltmeter to check which fuse actually powered it so I've been guessing.

We were up on the roof to begin with to do some fall maintenance and get it all ready for winter storage. The area you mention had  just been being prepped by me for some fresh sealant around the brackets and the surrounding area. I took the photo during the prep work but before our finished work. (I just wanted to show my brother what the wires looked like to ask him for some advice.)  All is well up there as far as the roof is concerned, thank goodness.

Thanks for the reply.
2003 26.5' RB

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #6
Does the generator fuel pump need 12 VDC? Even with the gen running, the converter would be needed to provide 12 VDC if batteries were really weak. The solar controller is also powered from its battery (output) side, so it might not be happy with low battery voltage.
2013 27’ Mid-Bath
2005 Honda CR-V

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #7
Lori, that photo looks like the base of the CB antenna, with wiring in even-worse-than-usual condition. The sun rots the coaxial CB cable after a few years. Mine (2003 midbath) looked similar.


Andy,  I have looked a few times, where are you seeing this photo Lori uploaded?  
Ramon
2000 Mid-Bath
2012 Lance 830 Truck Camper/2006 Cummins Dodge Ram Megacab
1985 Multi Plan - Donated to the American Breast Cancer Foundation.

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #8
Hi Lori; First if you have Trojan wet lead acid batteries, you need to put distilled water in them every month or so, or they won't take a charge and will have almost no capacity. They certainly won't be able to start your generator without an assist from the engine alternator.
     There aren't any voltages to be measured on the roof. The CB radio antenna is very low microwatts when it is listening for a signal. Your meter also won't be able to detect any voltage even connected to the antenna. It only radiates power when the mic is 'keyed' and you are radiating power at 27 mhz. Your meter won't detect that.
   When you turn off an AC circuit breaker in your power distribution box, the GFCI breaker must be turned all of the way off, to turn it back on again. The one with the white 'test' button.  It sounds to me like your converter isn't charging the batteries properly. What type of batteries do you have, and how old are they, before you start spending a lot of money on the wrong things.  You said that you have solar panels  The factory 85 Watt 12v. Single? Two?  After factory installed?  What type of solar controller do you have? Usually that controller will indicate battery voltage digitally and are more accurate than the old 'array of lights' measuring system.
    The car radio antenna in my '99 is  mounted about a foot from the driver side edge of the roof, near the front.. The CB radio antenna is mounted to the rim, or right next to the escape hatch on the driver side.
      I didn't see any pictures. Please post them here.  "click on the jpeg file and drag it over to the shaded area below, and drop it. Wait a few seconds for it to load from your computer into the file (text message) you are about to post.    RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #9
Keith S- That's a great point about the generator fuel pump needing 12v to run. I will research that. All lights and fans run while the solar controller panel is lit and showing the batteries being charged,  but in that same charging state, with 13+ volts showing at the inside breaker, the generator won't keep running now. Is it too large of a voltage "load" all of a sudden given the weak batteries, or might I have tripped some other component on the RV?

There are no RV service centers nearby and I'd love to have some idea what to ask the mechanic to check for while he installs the new batteries this week. Many thanks.

Ron B, Thanks! I didn't know about the GFCI needing to be simultaneously used in order to try resetting the converter breaker. I will try that in the morning if I can understand it fully when I get up there. I know I had flipped the converter breaker to "off" and back "on"  in an attempt to "reset" it as mentioned in some other posts, but didn't realize about the GFCI. Wouldn't that be great if I had simply turned my converter off inadvertently?

This RV has 2 solar panels with the original set-up, I believe. They've always worked great with no issues whatsoever. The old batteries are Trojan T-105s but they are very old and reading extremely low on the voltmeter lately. Getting new T-105s tomorrow but I just don't want to damage them if something I did at the antenna hurt some other component. All is well up there for now as a forum reader helped clarify that it was the CB cable that was frayed. Fuse is pulled for now just in case there is a drain from that. Thanks for the clarification about the low antenna voltages- that's what my brother had said too, but that's all I could think of that had changed between a fully functioning coach 12v system and the issues I have now. Nothing else was messed with that I can think of. Thank you so much for your suggestions.
2003 26.5' RB

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #10
Lori, I can address a few of your questions.

"Any ideas why the 12v coach system can be up and running for many hours without the engine running but after it cuts off later, it never comes back up unless we start the engine again? The generator cutting out is also concerning. Why would it need the 12v coach power to continue to run? Also, I forgot to say... We've been getting a very short shrill chirp when turning the ignition key or attempting to use the inside generator start switch. Thanks again for your help."

Your 12 volt system will operate when the solar system can provide power, for example when there is light reaching the panels (or your truck engine is running). The solar system can supply enough power for lighting but as soon as you try to use something which needs more demand,  like starting your generator, the system goes down as is indicated by the chirp you are hearing from the propane detector. I DO think the generator requires a functioning battery in order to operate, just like the refrigerator does.

I will make a couple other suggestions. I read your post from 4 months ago when you were listing your rig for sale. (That post seems to have been deleted last night?). In your for sale post, you mentioned that your rig had a battery disconnect switch. My rig has the factory disconnect and I had a problem where the connection between the batteries failed which effectively prevented 12 volts. I was on the road and bought a battery cable to bypass the disconnect switch. So you might want to check that switch, they do sometimes fail. Also, in your post for sale, you indicated there was some sort of surge protector, could it be interrupting your power. Also, in your post, it indicated your batteries were **not old and in good shape**, what happened in the ensuing 4 months?

I would start by replacing the house batteries and make sure they are installed properly. If you are getting new lead acid batteries, purchase a battery watering system like the Pro-fil system and maintain those batteries. I still use the battery disconnect switch when storing my rig for winter.

Good luck!
Steve K
Steve K

2003 Mid-bath

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #11
Ron B- Thanks so much- I reset the converter breaker by doing what you said and all is well. We are now charging from the generator and alternator again. No wonder the batteries weren't getting charged. Glad it was something simple. I'll put the new batteries on hold for now as these are showing a nice full charge. Full systems go now!

Steve K- Thanks for the info. We will look at the battery disconnect as a matter of maintenance before winter storage.  We already have a connected battery watering system and have maintained the water levels regularly. As I mentioned, the batteries have always worked well, kept a full charge and have never made the propane detector beep for low voltage. That's why we thought I had shorted a wire somewhere. They always tested strong with a multimeter at the battery posts themselves. Looking back on the previous owner's records, they are not quite 4 years old which I had not considered "old" this past spring but given my confusing issue, began to wonder if 4 years "might" be old for a Trojan battery. I am new to all of this if you couldn't tell!  Apparently, they were just reading weak due to low charging off solar (rainy, forested mountains here) and absolutely no charging off AC since I had turned the converter breaker off.  Batteries look good so far this morning. Yay!

Thanks for everyone's help. This is a fantastic resource for LD owners.

PS. Motorhome will still be for sale but not until next Spring- things shut down here in the WV mountains during the fall and winter months.  We will be tucking the LD in for winter now and will re-post listing then. Thanks again to everyone.
2003 26.5' RB

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #12
Thanks for the reply Lori. I still use Trojan T-105's and generally get 7-8 years out of them and replace before they go bad. But I am obsessive about maintaining them.

Since you are about to store for winter, will you put new batteries in before winter? If you decide to keep the current batteries, make sure they are fully charged before you store your rig. If they are not in a fully charged condition, they can freeze and crack making a huge expensive mess. Partially discharged batteries can freeze much more easily. Also, you might consider replacing the propane detector if you don't know how old it is; they do age out.

Steve K
Steve K

2003 Mid-bath

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #13
Just to reinforce what Ron said: nothing you did on the roof could have caused problems with your 12 VDC system.

Pulling the fuse of the CB unit was a good idea, though. Having the antenna coax shorted means that there won't be useful CB reception, and trying to transmit could blow out the transmitter portion of the CB unit.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #14
Steve - good info on the batteries. We have priced out a new set of T-105s but might wait until Spring now since our current ones are working well again so far. It might be ill advised to get new ones right before winter.

Andy- That is so good to know- I was worried I did something really boneheaded up there.

Thanks to everyone again.
2003 26.5' RB

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #15
"Andy,  I have looked a few times, where are you seeing this photo Lori uploaded?"

It was in one of her early messages, but it appears to have been taken down. Ever looked at a CB antenna base on a ten- or twenty-year-old Lazy Daze? That's what Lori's photo looked like. Coax insulation completely disintegrated, wires touching, etc. Unless a rig is garaged and seldom used, they all end up that way.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Electrical issues
Reply #16
Thanks Andy. At least I'm not going crazy.  Yes have seen a few shreaded cables over the years.  But you know the old saying..... a picture is.....

Ramon
2000 Mid-Bath
2012 Lance 830 Truck Camper/2006 Cummins Dodge Ram Megacab
1985 Multi Plan - Donated to the American Breast Cancer Foundation.