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Topic: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath (Read 933 times) previous topic - next topic
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Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Greetings,

I'm finally getting going on the rest of my solar upgrade project.  I've removed the SolarBoost 3000i controller, and I intend to utilize the empty spot in the padded mount on the cabinet end for a different display device.

The wiring chase behind this is mounted to the bottom of the cabinet shelf leading to the coach wall.  Does anyone have any experience running new wires through here?  I need the new wires to end up in the storage cabinet under the refrigerator, behind the driver's seat.

Also, I've been hoping the use the existing hole in the roof to run the wires for two new solar controllers.  I would like to replace the existing small combiner box on top of this hole with a larger one, and run the wires down to the under-fridge storage cabinet.

I will continue to experiment with this to see whether it's possible.  I would like to hear whether anyone has been able to do this.

If I can't do it this way, there's always the refrigerator vent.

Thanks,

Tim

2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #1 –
Tim, in a previous thread you said:
"i'm thinking of calling Blue Sky Energy tech support to see if they can tell me how to get their sb3000i to shove more current into the SOK. "

You should know that if the output current you are seeing is less than 30A the controller is doing as well as any other, regardless of how many solar panels you have or how big the battery bank may be. What you may be able to do to increase the current is to reduce series resistances from switches, connections, fuses, or sub-grade wiring before or particularly after the controller. If the controller is frequently limiting at 30A, then an upgrade may get you more. If you never see 30A, then a new controller would be a waste of money. Note too that performance from flat-on-the-roof mounted solar panels will never put out their maximum power, and the output varies considerably as the sun 'transits' over the day. For instance, if you were to see 30A output for a couple hours in the middle of the day only, then a higher-output controller would net you a bit more for those two hours, but perform the same for the other 8 hours or so of charging.

To maximize the performance of all charging systems, you might find this link useful:

LiFePO4 House Battery Charging and the Effect of Path Resistance

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #2 –
Hi Steve;  Tim has a kilowatt on the roof. Six 100W and two 200W panels.  Renogy 22% efficiency. So max of 77 Amps, realistically maybe 50-60 Amps, clean panels, mid day sun, typically in the high Sierras, low humidity and cleaner air! Three SOK 200 AH each that can take 150 A in parallel.  So he really does need a bigger controller.   Solar Upgrade to reference his roof photo.  RonB

edited: I missed that other 100W panel, so 1100 Watts total!  Over 50 Amps rated at optimum.
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #3 –
Quote
Does anyone have any experience running new wires through here?  I need the new wires to end up in the storage cabinet under the refrigerator, behind the driver's seat.

I installed a Victron monitor and a SeeLevel monitor in that location. Mine is an 09 MB so it's probably similar. I ran the wires:
* along the cabinet ceiling to the sidewall;
* along the sidewall behind the microwave;
* through the cabinet above the stove;
* through the cabinet wall to the refrigerator compartment;
* through the refrigerator compartment floor into the battery compartment under the refrigerator.
jor
09 27' MB
10  Suby Forester
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #4 –
Jor,

Thanks for your response!  I should be able to run the wires from my Victron Cerbo GX display in exactly the same way you did.

Tim

2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #5 –
Hello again,

Regarding the PV wire routing from the rooftop to the under-fridge cabinet: it seems pretty straightforward.

I removed the existing (and very small) combiner box on the roof and then snaked the hole, which it turns out is located inside the cabinet above the stove hood - in the ceiling just inside the front of the cabinet.  I'll just route the wires from there to the refrigerator compartment, and then down into the under-fridge cabinet.

I purchased a new purpose-built combiner box from AM Solar that will be installed over the hole.  I added a second set of busbars, since I do have two separate arrays, each feeding a separate controller.  Here is the link to that: AM Solar Roof Combiner Box (C-Box) | RV Solar Parts | Van Solar Parts

Regards,

Tim
2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #6 –
Quote
snaked the hole, which it turns out is located inside the cabinet above the stove hood - in the ceiling just inside the front of the cabinet.

That's a great way to go. I Thought about using the OEM race but I couldn't figure out where it went. I was installing a 12vdc frig so I just threw the roof vent and went straight down the frig compartment wall.

If I were doing my project again, I would buy that combiner. It's a beauty!
jor
09 27' MB
10  Suby Forester
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #7 –
When up-sizing our LD’s solar wiring, the Factory fittings were too small for larger wires. LD used an electrical box cover, along with a 90-degree water-proof fitting and a length of plastic exterior electrical conduct.

I cut the old sealant and cover away and replaced it with a new plate and a larger 90-degree water-proof fitting, connected to a length of flexible exterior conduct. The conduct runs to an exterior-grade electrical junction box with a two-terminal junction board. The junction box was screwed in place and sealed to the roof with polyurethane sealant.




More pics
Sky Blue 3000i solar controller | Flickr

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #8 –
Be careful running wires through the refrigerator compartment, paying attention to keep wires away from the hot chimney. Some refrigerators have a very tight fit.
On the last Mid-Bath I did a major battery and solar upgrade on, the refrigerator was pulled for a cleaner, more secure installation of the wiring.
Removing the refrigerator isn't that hard as long as you have a table the right height, our folding plastic camping table is the perfect height for this purpose.
It is a good time to add insulation to the compartment, adding as much insulation as possible to the freezer.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #9 –
Larry,

Thanks for that last post.

I went ahead and installed the AM Solar combiner box on the roof, with the opening in the bottom of the box right over the existing hole for the solar wires.  It's a one inch diameter hole, plenty large enough for the conductors that I'm feeding down to the two new controllers.  The conductor for the larger controller is 2 gauge, 6 gauge for the smaller one. 

I drilled a one inch hole in a short length of 1x6 cellular PVC and placed that over the roof hole, held down by VHB tape, with caulking all around the perimeter.  Next, I caulked the bottom of the combiner box, placed that on top of the PVC, and secured it with screws. After pulling the conductor up through the in the bottom of the c-box, I added a touch more caulk around the wires where they enter the c-box.  After waiting for the caulk to cure, I added some putty in the entry hole to create a dam.  Then I completed the wiring.

The c-box contains two sets of bus bars, one for each array.  One bus bar received the 6 gauge conductor and the other received the 2 gauge.  It was somewhat difficult to attach all of the incoming PV wires with the large gauge wires in there, but the box is well-designed, so it worked out in the end.

One array consists of one series pair of Renogy 200 watt panels on the roof, plus up to two more series pairs of external 200 watt portables.  For the externals, I used entry glands designed to receive two 10 gauge wires, which I fitted with MC4 connectors on the outside.  The other array consists of three series pairs of 100 watt Renogy panels.  For all of roof panels, I used round 10/2 cables, fed through the appropriate entry glands into the c-box.

See the photos below.

I did feed the conductor down through the refrigerator compartment and have been worried about it, even though I had not yet seen your latest post.  It's a lot of work to pull the refrigerator out to properly secure the wiring behind, but I think it's extremely important.  I'm sure I will have a lot more questions for you on this. 

In the meantime, I will proceed with the rest of the upgrade work.

Regards,

Tim
2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #10 –
Hi Tim;  Thanks for the pictures.  My '99 wasn't prewired for solar, so I put a 'J' box into the side of the refrigerator vent, and ran my wiring through there down beside the boiler tube, through to below the refrigerator into my area where the batteries/converter go. 
    I put black slit loom around the wiring and it has been good for 22+ years. I made sure it was as far away from the boiler tube, the hottest part of the refrigerator, as possible and used metal cable clamps to keep it in place.      RonB  
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #11 –
Ron,

From outside, looking at the back of your refrigerator, the hot side is on the right, correct?  This is the case on my refrigerator - the flue that gets hot is on that side, above the gas jet.

For the time being, I've run my wires across the top just below the vent, then down the left side, and into the compartment below, where my batteries will be.  I haven't bundled these four wires in split loom yet, but will do so soon.

The only thing I don't like about this is I am able to install wire clamps only at the top, and down below near the bottom, but I guess this will be okay as long as they are pulled taut.

If it really isn't too difficult to pull the refrigerator out, I might want to do that: not just to do a really careful job securing the wires, but also to see what sort of framing is in the wall on the righthand side (looking at the fridge from the front), since I'm interested in trying to hang the controllers and the inverter on this wall, up in the overcab.  There are cleats in this wall at the floor and two feet up, certainly, and perhaps also at the ceiling.  Are there any vertical framing members?

Tim

2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #12 –
[quote author=T&F link=msg=254246 d
If it isn't too difficult to pull the refrigerator out, I might want to do that: not just to do a really careful job securing the wires, but also to see what sort of framing is in the wall on the right and side (looking at the fridge from the front),
[/quote]
 
Running the wires down the left side is the correct way.
The wall on the front, right side of the refrigerator is mostly 1/8” paneling. If you want to hang devices on the wall, pull the refrigerator and attach 1/2” plywood to the inside to provide enough material for securing screws. 
It would also be a good time to add insulation to the freezer if there is room.  It gains heat much quicker than the refrigerator.

Make sure to cover any of the exposed roof wiring with split plastic tubing to keep the sun at bay.
It’s a complicated project that will pay dividends in the future when you boondock long-term.

Larry


Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #13 –
Larry,

Okay, sounds like I'll be pulling the refrigerator to install a backer board on the inside of the righthand wall, clean up the wiring behind, and perhaps add some insulation to the freezer.

I should be able to come up with a table to slide it out on.

How is the refrigerator secured?  What needs to be detached to pull it out?

Thanks for the help,

Tim
2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
 
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #14 –
Quote
How is the refrigerator secured?  What needs to be detached to pull it out?

It is screwed into the sidewalls in the front and to the floor in the rear. The screws in the front are easily accessible but the ones in the back require some work. You have to remove the caulking to get to them. As was their way, the LD boys figured if a little caulking was good then a LOT of caulking would be great!  :D  If you can't find a little table to rest the frig on when you pull it out, a milk carton or two will work fine.
jor



09 27' MB
10  Suby Forester
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #15 –
Quote from: jor  - 
It is screwed into the sidewalls in the front and to the floor in the rear. The screws in the front are easily accessible but the ones in the back require some work. 
If you can't find a little table to rest the frig on when you pull it out, a milk carton or two will work fine.

I forgot about the four screws on the interior side. Interesting that our Dometic DM2662 has the screws at the top and bottom, not on the sides. The top two are hidden under the eyebrow and the bottom two are on the horizontal flange, in the corners.

To remove the two rear screws, I use a 1/4"-drive socket (that fits the screw head) and a short extension connected to a battery impact driver for removal and re-installation. They can be tough to remove by hand.
For those who do not own one, a battery-powered impact drive is a must-have for RV work. My Ryobi impact driver is used daily
18V ONE+ HP Brushless 1/4" Impact Driver - RYOBI Tools
RYOBI ONE+ - RYOBI Tools

Our folding camping table is just the right height for removing the refrigerator, good the know that milk crates work well too.

Larry

.


Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #16 –
Quote from: jor  - 
It is screwed into the sidewalls in the front and to the floor in the rear. The screws in the front are easily accessible but the ones in the back require some work. You have to remove the caulking to get to them. As was their way, the LD boys figured if a little caulking was good then a LOT of caulking would be great!  :D  If you can't find a little table to rest the frig on when you pull it out, a milk carton or two will work fine.
jor
The red & white power wires will also need to disconnected along with the propane line.  The drain line will also have to be dealt with.  You can cut it as jor did and then use a barb splicer fitting with a pair of hose clamps to reconnect it.  You can see all three of these disconnected items in picture 3 that jor posted.

Kendall
Kendall & Donna
2019 TK  "RIMRIDER"
2023 Jeep Wrangler
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #17 –
Okay,

Thanks to all for your advice.

I managed to pull the fridge today, after a bit of a struggle, mostly with the two rail bolts in the back.  It was difficult to get enough of the old marine sealant off of them to extract them.  Then, when I had a lot of trouble pulling the fridge out on the bottom, I was slow to realize that both rails were still stuck in the old sealant.  Once I realized this, I was able to quickly cut that away, and the fridge came out fairly easily until close to the end, when I realized that I had not dealt with the drain line.  I went back out and removed the drain line, but under strain, the little plastic fitting had broken off.  There is about a quarter inch of it still sticking out of the fridge.  I'm hoping I can just replace this fitting, but I'm not sure how to get it out.  If I have to, I can always glue on a nipple with the right inside diameter and go from there.

Other than this one mishap, all went well, and I was pleased to see that the wall on the righthand side has 1/2" x 1-1/2" wooden cleats running all the way from bottom to top in the back, middle and front (there is insulation board placed flush between these cleats).  This will give me something to attach to from the other side when I attempt to hand my two solar controllers.

I will provide some photos later.

Tim
2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #18 –
Below are some fridge-pull photos.

1. Screws in the upper flange removed.
2. Screw on the lower left removed.
3. Screw on the lower right removed.
4. The empty compartment, showing the as yet un-loomed controller wires hanging down on the right.
5. The inside of the upper wall behind driver seat - you can see the three vertical wooden framing members.
6. Upper rear of the fridge, where the freezer is.
7. Middle rear above the coil.
8. Broken drain nipple.

I believe there is room to attach some insulation board, perhaps as much as 3" thick, behind the freezer. 

Space in the compartment is definitely at a premium, especially on the sides.  I really would not want to try to attach 1/2" plywood to the inside of the sidewall behind the driver seat; it might work, but would I worry that it would make things too tight in there.  I believe I can work with the those vertical framing members, which are 1/2" thick by 1-1/2" wide, 1/4" thinner than a normal 1 x 2.

Concerning the broken drain nipple: I have some scrap pieces of 1/2" drip tubing, of just the right inside diameter to fit snugly around that broken nipple, secured with a small hose clamp.  The other end of the drip tube piece will slide over the clear plastic hose (which still has the barb inside), and secured with a small hose clamp.  What a pain.

Your comments, please.

Thanks,

Tim
2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #19 –

Yes, it's a pain to pull the refrigerator, hopefully, this is the last time.
The refrigerator's mounting is the same as our DM2662. The broken nipple fix should work fine.

Dometic calls for 0-1" max clearance between the rear wall and the large cooling coil, to force all of the upward flow of cooling air through the coils, preventing the flow from bypassing the coils. Fill the gap with foam board insulation or plywood.
Clearances; Minimum Ventilation Heights - Dometic DM Series Installation...

Isn't adding 3" of insulation at the rear of the freezer going to restrict airflow from exiting out of the rooftop vent?

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #20 –
Larry,

Yes, you're right - forget the 3" of insulation board on the back of the freezer...

I see now that the gap you are talking about is the one between the rear wall of the compartment and the coil.  My measurements tell me that is just under two inches.  So perhaps it would be okay to attach 1-1/2" of insulation board on that back wall from the top of the outside door up to just under the fins and the top of the refrigerator.

Does this make sense?

Thanks,

Tim
2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #21 –
Sorry, a typo above - I meant "up to just under the fins at the top of the refrigerator". 

Tim
2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #22 –
The project continues, albeit slowly...

I actually popped the refrigerator back in, just to get a sanity check on the clearances in the back.

I'm glad I did.  My hole to the compartment below, containing the controller wires, was just a little too far in.  The small piece of metal on the back rear of the fridge that holds the 12-volt connector and A/C cord was colliding just a bit.

I reamed out the hole a little more towards the door opening to avoid this.  It will be fine now.  I will fill everything with marine sealant after the reinstall.

Also, with the fridge back in, I checked the clearance between the coil and the wall.  1.5" max.  I believe I will be able to install about a 16" wide x 36" high piece of insulation board from the top of the outside door up to the fins.  I'll probably just go with some Formular NGX panel of one inch thickness, held with silicone adhesive.  Home Depot sells this as 2' x 2' x 1" project panels.

As usual, I would appreciate comments.

Thanks,

Tim
2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #23 –
I completed securing the solar controller wires and adding insulation board to the rear wall of the fridge compartment.

I also was able to bolt some vertical wood supports on the outside of the righthand compartment wall, to provide structure for hanging devices there.  The bolt heads are on the inside - I countersunk them for zero clearance.  Each bolt passes through a vertical support already on the inside (you can see these in the earlier photo set - they're painted black), then the 1/8" paneling, and finally through a new 3/4" thick vertical support on the outside.

Earlier I slid the fridge partly back in place, fixed the drain line, then pushed it in the rest of the way.  The fit seemed good, so I re-installed the screws at the bottom and top of the door.  After this I noticed that the inside flange is not quite tight - I think I might have secured it prematurely.

I'm hammered for today, so I'll have another go at it tomorrow, and see if I can get the fridge all the way home before I secure it.

Tim


2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad
Re: Routing Wire inside a Mid-bath
Reply #24 –
Finally!

I found out why the fridge would stop a little short when I tried to push it all the way back in.

The "repaired" drain line was colliding just a bit with the new insulation board in the back.  The piece of drip irrigation tubing that I attached to the broken drain outlet was sticking out too far.

I changed things up a bit, attaching a PVC elbow to the broken drain outlet, then attaching a longer piece of drip tubing to the end of the elbow pointing down.  I directed this piece of tubing downward much closer to the back of the fridge, preventing it from binding on anything.  I will find a way to attach it to the existing clear tubing, which goes into the wall and then through the floor to the outside. 

This last step can be done with the fridge in place, so I went ahead and fully secured it inside, re-installed the rail bolts, reconnected the gas line and the power, and tested to make sure everything works.  All is well.

This was a tough job!

Tim

2014 Mid-Bath
2014 Honda CRV toad