Smallest RVs November 25, 2023, 11:09:31 am Drove uo to Tucson the other day. Shocked by herds of very fast-moving small cars, all seeminly racing each other along the wide city streets, like Broadway and aptly-named Speedway. Herds moving along at 60, 70 mph, each herd with brief spaces between it and the next one following. Scary - but maybe this is an old age effect, as I am 79. But. I raced sports cars in the '60s, and did tire testing for BF Goodrich at Indy, back when 170 mph could get you airborne. Unlike today, when a generic Hyundai Sonata sedan can hit 135 mph off the showroom floor. New cars are fast, and new electric cars are even faster. The 2024 hybrid Corvette goes from 0-60 in only 2.5 seconds, not a typo. By contrast, my old 1991 LD never even got up to 60 mph in Tucson, causing much honking of horns from the locals, a cacophony of shrill beeps from their tinny little cars.And then, stopped at a light, we saw a new van. Easily as long as my Class C, 24' or so. But new, painted a desert tan color, no stripes or swirls, only a Mercedes badge indicating its awesome $200,000 status. Oozing an aura of affluence, same as a Rolls-Royce. And it left me wondering why the owners had passed on getting a new Class C of the same length but with more interior space and comfort? At a much lower price? But these vans are trendy. There are all sorts of videos on YouTube about the joys of living in one, even with their awkward sliding side doors. Status sells, and I drove off hoping the large van never adventured down to my Tombstone, with the nearest Mercedes dealer so far away in case of a breakdown out here in Cochise County, the Land of Legends with the sprits of Cochise and Geronimo looking on from the nearby hills. 12 Likes
Re: Herds of desperate small cars, and a mega-van Reply #1 – November 25, 2023, 07:31:49 pm I'll bet the van drives a LOT quieter and faster than your LD, while getting much better mileage. It's narrower, so easier to drive and park. And, I suspect, it doesn't/won't require as much maintenance (roof sealing, etc), plus no wood to rot. Probably a number of other things, too, that an owner would mention. It might be safer, too. 1 Likes
Re: Herds of desperate small cars, and a mega-van Reply #2 – November 25, 2023, 10:38:05 pm It is important to note that the cargo carrying capacity (c.c.c) is extremely low on the sprinter vans. For example, the Tiffin Wayfarer, on the Mercedes Cutaway Chassis, has a c.c.c. of 630 lbs. Therefore, two people getting into this unit and a few gallons of water at 8.2 lbs. per gallon puts it close to the GVWR. 5 Likes
Re: Herds of desperate small cars, and a mega-van Reply #3 – November 26, 2023, 11:51:50 am Eric -- my old LD is very quiet, except for a little rattle coming from inside the driver's door. Gas mileage we won't talk about, but safety... hard to say, but the new van should have better brakes. Speed? The LD is very fast with its huge Chevy 454 V8. Accelerates going up hills. But the van is probably more comfortable cruising at 75-80 on the freeway, while my LD is happy at 55. Durability and low maintenance? I'd bet on an aluminum-skinned LD over fiberglass, over time, over the life of the vehicle. Although it is easier to patch plastic cracks than metal.The last time I did a comparison... a friend flew into Sierra Vista in his Gulfstream 5 jet, and we had a great time in Tombstone's Crystal Palace Saloon arguing about who had the better vehicle. He loved the larger interior LD space, which you get from a square box... and I agreed that the polished real wood in the jet was better than the veneer in my LD. Might have been able to beat him in a 0-60 race on the runway, but SV is also a military field, drone testing, no sense of humor. Also I had to concede that the jet's interior furnishings, like the seats, countertops, carpeting... were much higher quality. Not more comfortable... but nicer to look at. Plus he had a flight attendant, and I don't -- maybe a future upgrade?Wingersky -- I just looked up that Tiffin Wayfarer.... wow, $175,000 or so new! A Class C on a Sprinter chassis, they say. And you're right, a shocking GVWR problem. Though maybe, Mercedes owners being hip and trendy, they only sell to skinny people, like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. Seriously, is there a workaround for those vans, like better tires? 5 Likes
Re: Herds of desperate small cars, and a mega-van Reply #4 – November 26, 2023, 03:06:43 pm Hi Jon; There is nothing you can do to raise the GVWR. It is 'written in stone' by the manufacturer. EPA, Dot, insurers, etc. You can upgrade elements, tires, wheels, hubs, brakes, axles, steering components, etc. Usually by pushing the limits and beefing up what failed. Kind of the hard way. A friend had a F150 altered by a tow bar company, and they broke the frame! The tow bar company paid for a new frame to be installed on his (pretty new) truck. He bought an F250. The 454 Chevy engine is a good one. My old (non LD) Dodge 360-3 engine on a 20' motorhome was good. Carbureted '78 chassis was hard to get smogged in Ca. Too many mechanics weren't quite sure what that thing on the intake manifold was. I had to find 'gray haired' mechanics. RonB 1 Likes
Re: Herds of desperate small cars, and a mega-van Reply #5 – November 28, 2023, 02:39:08 am Rob -- yes, the 454 Chevy is a good strong engine. I am its weak point... have to always make sure the oil level is up! My 1991 was also the first year with both fuel injection and the excellent turbo-hydramatic auto transmission. So I'm lucky, don't have to find a carburetor guy... though there are still more than a few here in southeastern Arizona. We are not rich -- lots of old cars, old trucks, and old hot rods. And no smog tests! I moved here years ago from San Diego, and even then getting an older gas V-8 smogged was tough. Eventually back then, they had to pass you... after more than $500 of meaningless 'repairs'. And thanks for the GVWR info... that the limits are cast in stone and should be taken very seriously. Which gets me back to Wingersky's Tiffen example. How on earth can they get away with that?
Re: Herds of desperate small cars, and a mega-van Reply #6 – November 28, 2023, 03:08:43 am Hi Jon; The GVWR is what it is, but as long as you are notified what the limit is, then you are free to overload as you wish. More to relieve the manufacturers responsibility lawyer wise. You the buyer (and your insurance company) assume any responsibility for what happens after. I load my 'TK close to max, but the frame, tires, brakes and driveline can handle about 200# over. I travel with less water than a full tank. ( and I lost some weight...) I do need a reweigh to see where the fully loaded rig is at. As you know the tires are still Load range 'E', so the same as an E450. RonB 1 Likes
Smallest RVs Reply #7 – November 29, 2023, 11:41:22 pm Learned today that same as Lazy Daze going away, Ford has discontinued my Transit Connect very small van.So now I have two classic orphan vehicles, the 1991 LD and the 2013 TC. The LD of course you all know about, the best RV ever made over all the years. The TC is another story.It is small... only 15' long. So easy to park. Weighs 3,600 lbs, can carry 1,600, GVWR about 5,200. It has a small made-in-Spain 2003-type Ford Focus 4-cyl engine, 28 mpg. It was assembled in Turkey, then shipped to New Jersey for a few final touches to Americanize it and avoid taxes. A true world vehicle -- designed by Ford of England, won Van of the Year over there several times. Very simple, practical. But Ford couldn't sell it to suburban moms, so the redesigned it for 2014, added cup holders and leather seats, and totally wrecked the purity of Brit Peter Horbury's original design.Which I love for single-person offroad camping. The TC will go almost anywhere, slowly, except sand. Had one great trip on Mattole Rd south out of Ferndale, Ca... mud and heavy rain up over the wild King Range, then into the sun down to the sea along the Lost Coast. High enough ground clearance. Lots of room inside for basic cooking gear, sleeping bag, simple mattress and pillows. 6' long inside, and with the passenger seat folded forward, room to sleep for anyone. It is a joy to drive... light, perfect handling, great brakes. Quite a contrast to my LD! Also fine for stealth camping if I have to go back for a visit to California. Did you know that the town of Del Mar, near San Diego, will ticket any RV parked for more than 4 hours? But the TC is invisible. The older ones, up to 2013, are getting inexpensive now, joy to the world! Only downside? For camping, we're talking one person only, really. It is so small. And no built-in toilet, stove, sink, table... none of the creature comforts that make any LD such a luxury on the road. If your partner likes to cook, likes domestic touches, forget the TC! 3 Likes
Re: The smallest RV... gone Reply #8 – November 30, 2023, 01:26:47 am Wait a sec, a first gen Ford Transit Connect is just 3600#?So you could tow it behind your Lazy Daze, having a tiny backup RV as your toad? 🤯 Sure, you can’t tow it with 4 down, at least a dolly, but still, kinda cool. 1 Likes
Re: The smallest RV... gone Reply #9 – November 30, 2023, 09:05:42 am Just be cautious of the cvt trans...very problematic. Must change fluid often and no harsh driving. Most manufacturers are having issues with cvt.
Re: The smallest RV... gone Reply #10 – November 30, 2023, 10:05:46 am Franram -- my 2013's auto trans is a regular 4-speed, not CVT. In 2014, they went from my 2.0 liter engine to a more powerful 2.5, with a new 6-speed trans, and if I remember right, that's where the problems started and there was a huge recall of that type trans. On mine, no trouble at all, normal service. But to be fair, I've never put anywhere near 1600 lbs of stuff in it... never used commercially. Daydream time... there were people back in the early 2000s really hopping up Ford Focus cars... 200+ hp... oh well. Am actually a lot safer chugging along with only 136 hp. And! Three months ago, got a speeding ticket! Honest! 75 in a 50 zone, and I actually told the officer that I didn't think the TC could go that fast... and I went back the next day and, sure enough, it ran right up to 85 quietly, without a protest. Over the years, haven't made any changes, aside from putting the spare tire inside instead of under the van. Lost one plastic wheelcover, and may paint all the wheels a dark blue.Dave -- I've never seen a TC used as a toad... maybe it's too heavy, at about 4000 - 4500 lbs with gas & stuff? But then... people tow Jeeps, don't they?
How small can an RV get? Reply #11 – December 05, 2023, 07:17:54 pm RVs-- from the largest Prevost bus conversions down to... sleeping in your car? How small can an RV get? Mary's Fiat 500 as an RV? Luckily, no, since she loves our old 1991 LD, with all the comforts of home, sort of.But then there's me. And, these days, I'm doing more and more car camping. Just me, in an older 2013 Ford Transit Connect, out for one or two days now and then, in a 100-mile radius from Tombstone, Arizona. The short trip times greatly simplify RV travel. You just don't need much. Not much food, not much water, and since the TC gets 28 mpg, not much gas. Simple foam mattress with sleeping bag. IPad for reading and videos. Metal clipboard with paper and pencils for drawing. One folding chair to sit outside in the absolutely perfect peace of all the quiet offroad places here in Cochise County.My Transit Connect is the lineal descendant of Henry Ford's 'Vagabonds', his 1919 road trip adventures with Edison and Firestone. Unlike them, I don't have a cook, chauffeur, or mechanic along to help out. But for my short trips, no need. And the little front-wheel-drive TC can go places that Ford and his friends could only have dreamed of, out here in the Land of Legends, with the spirits of Cochise and Geronimo and the Earps and Doc Holliday all around any RV that dares to venture off the road. 3 Likes
Re: How small can an RV get? Reply #12 – December 06, 2023, 09:29:19 am Japan has micro sized campers that are pretty amazing for their size.
Re: How small can an RV get? Reply #13 – December 06, 2023, 12:13:26 pm Quote from: Jon Donahue - December 05, 2023, 07:17:54 pmMy Transit Connect is the lineal descendant of Henry Ford's 'Vagabonds', his 1919 road trip adventures with Edison and Firestone.And the little front-wheel-drive TC can go places that Ford and his friends could only have dreamed of, out here in the Land of Legends, I wouldn't be surprised if a Model T could go places your TC could only dream of. The Ts were designed for a world with few or no paved roads, every trip was an off-road adventure. The high ground clearance and tall wheels allowed them to use deeply rutted roads and grind through soft surfaces. My father told stories about exploring the Imperial Valley's desert as a kid in Model Ts, Including over the plank road to Yuma. He was impressed with where they would go, considering how primitive and slow they were. If they got stuck, being lightweight, they were much easier to dig out or lift out of a hole. On the other hand, your TC is a modern vehicle and a lot simpler to operate. The one time I drove T, it was very confusing with the odd operating controls that have nothing to do with today's vehicle, except the steering wheel.The Vagabonds - The Henry FordLarry 1 Likes
Re: How small can an RV get? Reply #14 – December 06, 2023, 02:21:03 pm "The Ts were designed for a world with few or no paved roads..."My father, having driven his father's Model 'T', said that it was easier to go up a hill backwards than forwards. Something to do with the gearing!I learned to drive in my father's '31 Model 'A', Roadster, rumble seat in back and the choke under the dash on the passenger's side. That car would go where newer ones could not!
Re: How small can an RV get? Reply #15 – December 06, 2023, 04:52:20 pm Quote from: Lazy Bones - December 06, 2023, 02:21:03 pm"The Ts were designed for a world with few or no paved roads..."My father, having driven his father's Model 'T', said that it was easier to go up a hill backwards than forwards. Something to do with the gearing!I learned to drive in my father's '31 Model 'A', Roadster, rumble seat in back and the choke under the dash on the passenger's side. That car would go where newer ones could not! My father told me the same thing about having to back up steep grades in the Model T and Model A.Model T's and As did not have fuel pumps, the gas tank was mounted above the carburetor and would gravity-feed the carb. When going up steep grades, the was not enough drop from the gas tank down to the carburetor, and the engine would starve. When going up backward, there was enough drop to provide fuel for the carb. Ford did not use fuel pumps until 1932 with the introduction of the Model B.Larry 2 Likes
Re: How small can an RV get? Reply #16 – December 06, 2023, 05:02:06 pm Quote from: Jota - December 06, 2023, 09:29:19 amJapan has micro sized campers that are pretty amazing for their size.Hard to tell if the image is a real car and trailer or a toy. I guess both would be about the same size.Larry
Re: How small can an RV get? Reply #17 – December 06, 2023, 08:30:45 pm I remember the same stories from my Dad about backup up steep hills due to the lack of a fuel pump, Larry.Steve
Re: How small can an RV get? Reply #18 – December 06, 2023, 09:51:50 pm Larry -- I think Jota's Kei-car (mini truck?) with trailer wins the award for World's Smallest RV, hands down. Imagine the excitement as you pull into a KOA with this rig. And the envy of all those huge pickup drivers towing their disintegrating Grand Designs. No slides on Jota's RV, either! Also, it is a 'true' RV, as opposed to someone sleeping in their Mini or Smart car. No, this one's a classic... what Lazy Daze could have been, had they sold the company overseas! 1 Likes
Re: How small can an RV get? Reply #19 – December 07, 2023, 12:00:44 am Quote from: Larry W - December 06, 2023, 05:02:06 pmHard to tell if the image is a real car and trailer or a toy. I guess both would be about the same size.LarryIt's a Honda N-Truck/N-Camp:https://www.motortrend.com/news/1502-mini-campin-honda-shows-pint-sized-n-truck-n-camp-concept/ 1 Likes
Re: Smallest RVs Reply #20 – December 07, 2023, 09:37:39 am I merged Jon Donahue's multiple topics about very small RVs into this one. While Around the Campfire is for general RV discussion, it's best to keep discussion of a specific RV topic to a single thread.
Re: Smallest RVs Reply #21 – December 07, 2023, 10:18:17 am The key word in that page's headline is "concept."
Re: Smallest RVs Reply #22 – December 07, 2023, 10:49:09 am Sorry, Michelle. One topic it is. And since there is a possibility that Jota's picture is a concept, here's another from Mike festiva on Youtube. Kei camping, in Seattle, in the rain. And mud. And more rain. Two guys totally concentrating on making sure their camper shells don't leak!https://youtu.be/Y8haFYmOCzQ?si=mZW7ETzyHkODb9hX
Re: Smallest RVs Reply #23 – December 09, 2023, 02:22:24 pm Here's a 17'-9" Italian-made motorhome on a FIAT DUCATO EURO 6D drivetrain/chassis. The webpage claims that it is available in the US. Oasi 540.1 - Small Camper In Fiberglass: 5.40m Like A Car The specifications are very incomplete. For starters, what's the GVWR? What's the UVW? What size is the tankage? And that's just the tip of the iceberg.As recently as 3 or 4 months ago they listed a Santa Monica office, among two other locations in the US. Now only a NJ location is listed. They offer an email address for more information. us@wingamm.comI'd love to examine one. But where would one go for service, either to the platform or the RV components? Where are the US owners to share their experience? Where is the crazy good online owner's forum?Jim 1 Likes
Re: Smallest RVs Reply #24 – December 09, 2023, 05:04:32 pm From what I’ve seen of Ducato conversions they are really good, typically Italian in the use of materials and colours, stylish to the enth.
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