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Surge Power Protector Question
Hello LDOG

A favorite RV park we use has terrible electrical stability in the mornings.  If we are running our heat pump, and perhaps brewing coffee the 30 A breaker will trip, or the heat pump will drag to a slow stop.  Guess people are using lots of juice in for mornings for breakfast (and running their heat pumps). 

Will this plug-in protector from Amazon help in that situation to protect the heat pump and other A/C accessories in our LD?


Amazon.com: RV Surge Protector 30 amp, POWSAF RV Power Defender Voltage...
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Tony R
2010 LD RB - Sold to another happy LD Family

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #1

No. this type only protects against surges - a more elaborate model will actually disconnect you if voltage falls too low. Inconvenient, but will save appliances that could be damaged by low voltage. Such as :

Amazon.com: Progressive Industries RV Surge Protector 30 Amp with Electrical...

Steve

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #2

Note the liability of the good post-attached surge protectors is their expense and vulnerability to theft. Internally installed will protect also against generator issues without danger of theft:

Amazon.com: Progressive Industries RV Surge Protector 30 Amp with Electrical...

Steve

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #3
No. this type only protects against surges - a more elaborate model will actually disconnect you if voltage falls too low. Inconvenient, but will save appliances that could be damaged by low voltage. Such as :

Amazon.com: Progressive Industries RV Surge Protector 30 Amp with Electrical...
Plus this one has protection from the elements, which the OP’s model didn’t.

It’s personal preference on an external protector like this one vs an internally installed one.

I like externals, because it’s easily replaced if it gives itself up to protect the RV, latter is more work to replace.  Figure the theft risk is low given how infrequently I hook up to power anyway.
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Dave

2017 TK

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #4

"If we are running our heat pump, and perhaps brewing coffee the 30 A breaker will trip"

To begin with, don't use two power-hungry appliances at the same time when you're in a marginal power situation such as you described. Turn off the heat pump while making coffee. (Or make it on the stovetop using a percolator, French press, or filter coffee maker.)

The problem at your campground is low voltage due to inadequate wiring. The $40 "POWSAF" surge protector you mentioned can protect against surges and spikes, but it can't protect against your heat pump (for example) being damaged by low voltage.

The most popular solution is to buy an "energy management system" (EMS) that monitors line voltage and cuts off power if voltage drops below a level that is safe for compressor-based devices such as your air conditioner/heat pump. That means you'll lose shore power, but your heat pump will be protected from damage. The most popular such devices among Lazy Daze owners are Progressive Industries' EMSHW30C (hardwired; must be installed by an electrician) and EMS-PT30X (portable).

The hardwired version, although more expensive, is preferable. It's not vulnerable to theft, can't be left behind by mistake, and is never exposed to the elements. It comes with a wired remote display (not shown on that Amazon product page) that shows line voltage, frequency, and any errors such as reverse polarity, open ground, etc. The portable version has the same display built in, but you have to go outside to see it.

That brings up an important point. The $40 surge protector you mentioned has indicator lights for open neutral, open ground, and reverse polarity... but it will cheerfully pass along power regardless, potentially creating a dangerous situation for you and your Lazy Daze (for example, reverse polarity could cause the metal parts of your rig to become "live"). The Progressive Industries EMS devices will not only detect these problems, as well as too-low or too-high voltage and out-of-spec line frequency, but will stop power from reaching your rig if a miswired campground socket, bad voltage, or wrong frequency is present. That's in addition to stopping surges and spikes.

I should add that a Progressive Industries competitor, SurgeGuard, offers similar products. I've owned both, and I've seen the insides of both. The PI units are better designed and better built. I recommend them.

You may also hear about a device called an autotransformer that actually boosts voltage. They do, but they're bulky, heavy, expensive ($500-$700), don't cut off power in case of bad wiring, and actually make matters worse for everyone else in the campground. I have once or twice seen 50 amp autotransformers used by big rigs, but I don't know of any Lazy Daze owners who have one.

A Progressive industries EMS is the solution that many of us have chosen. Yes, it's inconvenient to have shore power suddenly cut off on a cold morning or a hot afternoon, but it beats buying a new air conditioner after low voltage causes yours to burn out.

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #5
Thanks all for the good information.

Does the Portable EMS-PT30X turn itself back on (reset) or must you do that manually each time it trips?

Thanks again for your recommendations.

Cheers!

Tony R. aka (codefour)
Tony R
2010 LD RB - Sold to another happy LD Family

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #6
If we are running our heat pump, and perhaps brewing coffee the 30 A breaker will trip, or the heat pump will drag to a slow stop

Something Andy mentioned that needs to be highlighted is that running your heat pump (or A/C) with low voltage will damage it.  If it is slowing down/dragging to a slow stop, the low voltage is causing permanent harm to the motor and compressor.

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #7
Thanks all for the good information.

Does the Portable EMS-PT30X turn itself back on (reset) or must you do that manually each time it trips?

Thanks again for your recommendations.

Cheers!

Tony R. aka (codefour)

It will turn back on if voltage is adequate after a 2 minute delay.
Ross Taylor
2017 MB

 
Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #8
Yes, the Progressive Industries EMS products will restore power once it's safe to do so--after, as Ross & Beverly pointed out, a delay of a couple minutes.

Why the delay? Because if power to a compressor device such as a heat pump or air conditioner is briefly shut off and then restored, something called "compressor lockup" can occur. This results in its motor overheating and potentially being damaged. The EMS's delay keeps this from happening in the event of either a brief outage in campground power, or a brief cutoff by the EMS due to bad power. It gives the compressed refrigerant a chance to stabilize before restarting the compressor.

(The built-in delay also means that when you first plug in to shore power with an EMS in action, your rig won't see power for a couple of minutes, even if there are no problems with campground power. Don't panic--it will come on! But until you get used to it, it can seem as if it's taking forever, even though it's only a couple of minutes.)

These devices really are fairly smart. That's why they're called energy management systems, rather than just surge suppressors. 🙂
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #9
Hi Tony;  The surge surpressor you detailed won't shut off power if it is too low. As Andy said, It's only function is to protect the incoming line voltage from having 'spikes' in it.  I haven't been able to find any documentation in the form of specifications on how low a voltage it will protect you from.
   The one Steve detailed the PE-30X  will shut off if the input voltage goes lower than 104 VAC. I suspect RMS measured and for a specific amount of time.  That is the protection you need in this instance. Most people don't have heat pumps, the heaters are just heating elements. Lazy Daze didn't have roof heat pumps until about 2015.  Just plain heating elements won't suffer any damage from low voltage, (unless the internal fans quit running).   Other times when people are all running air conditioning, too much load can drop too much voltage going to the entire region, entire RV park, or maybe just your circuit branch.  Either way you need to protect the Freon compressor from too low a voltage. Hopefully compressor motors have internal 'overtemp' protection that should protect it. If not, the smarter PE-30X will. After power is back above 104 VAC, it will start an internal timer for 2 minutes, 16 seconds. At the end of that time it will turn power back on.  Of course if power continues to be 'bad' or too low it can remain off a lot longer.
   The manual for this Progressive  EMS says:"  • RV wiring is different than house wiring. In an RV, neutral and ground conductors are isolated whereas in a house they are bonded at the service panel. Therefore;
never connect neutral and ground as this can result in a ground fault condition, electric shock, and/or a fire hazard."        In my power distribution box, ('99 TKB), just like in a house, the neutral and ground are connected together, so not true!   Every trailer or motorhome I've ever worked on is connected the same as the Lazy Daze electrical.  I haven't worked on that many, but still....  I don't know who wrote that manual, but that 'blanket statement' seem to not be the case.   RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #10
Minor note: my 2013 MB has the heat pump AC unit, so they date to no later than 2013 LD model year.
2013 27’ Mid-Bath
2005 Honda CR-V

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #11
(The built-in delay also means that when you first plug in to shore power with an EMS in action, your rig won't see power for a couple of minutes, even if there are no problems with campground power. Don't panic--it will come on! But until you get used to it, it can seem as if it's taking forever, even though it's only a couple of minutes.)


This is extremely helpful information for those unfamiliar with these. Very thoughtful to post this, Andy.

Unlike many others, but similar to Dave, I went with a portable Progressive EMS because I didn't want to be stuck without power should a hardwired unit sacrifice itself in a surge or similar situation -- although I don't think I have ever personally heard of this happening in my admittedly limited experience.

Should a catastrophic event occur, my plan is to make every effort to not plug into the same source without another EMS (I don't carry an EMS spare, but do carry 2 spare 30A surge protectors).

Jason

2003 Rear Bath
"Razor Crest"
Our first RV, purchased from the original owner 01/2022

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #12

Thanks to RonB, Andy, Ross and Bev, Michelle C, Dave K, Steve and Jason.  And anyone else who helped out on this discussion.

I have the EMS-30X portable unit in Amazon Cart.  On the way tomorrow.

It is amazing the amount of "really great" shared information comes from this Forum.  Not no mention the kindness of it's members.

Cheers!

Tony R. (aka codefour)
Tony R
2010 LD RB - Sold to another happy LD Family

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #13
You can mitigate the situation by starting your generator (most RVs give the generator priority over the shore power - if yours doesn't, you need to disconnect the shore power one way or another), and run off of that until the morning power struggle is over. Or use your propane furnace (if you have one) instead of the heat pump to warm up the coach. For periods of poor power that don't require the heat pump or the A/C to run, turn on your inverter, then disconnect from campground power. Later, when the camp power has improved, reconnect to the campground power to charge your batteries.

There are some very clever inverters that will automatically supplement the shore AC power when it gets too low, or even switch away from shore power if it's too "dirty". Ditto for generators that have the "autostart" feature. Sometimes, the shore power is a shared 15 A circuit, just enough to keep the batteries charged on 3 or 4 RVs, so we have to disconnect from it to run our inverter for coffee or the microwave, then switch back to shore power. Or do the generator thing.
2005 Jayco 24SS

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #14
"I went with a portable Progressive EMS because I didn't want to be stuck without power should a hardwired unit sacrifice itself in a surge or similar situation -- although I don't think I have ever personally heard of this happening in my admittedly limited experience."

That's a point, but there is a  solution if you have the hardwired EMSHW30C model: there's a bypass switch on that model's remote monitor. Quoting the manual, "Bypass switch: This switch is located on the remote panel, and allows the user to bypass the computer circuit in the EMS in the event of computer failure, thus allowing source power into the RV. This does not disable the surge protection portion of the EMS." However, the portable EMS-PT30X model lacks a bypass switch.

Full disclosure: while I recommend the hardwired EMS, I'm currently using a portable one. Back when I bought my first Airstream, I had scheduled a trip to a commercial campground in Lee Vining, California immediately afterward (not a great idea with a brand new rig, by the way), so I didn't have time to wire in an EMSHW30C EMS. But I wasn't going to plug into shore power without protection, so I bought a portable EMS-PT30X to take along with me... and out of laziness, have been using it ever since.

It turned out to be a good thing I had it. That campground had seriously inadequate power, and on hot days the voltage sometimes dropped as low as 99 volts! If I hadn't had the EMS, my nice new air conditioner would likely have been damaged. As it was, I had to put up with the EMS occasionally cutting power when the voltage dropped too low, but no harm was done to my rig.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #15
The PI hardwired surge protector is a better choice for many reasons as mention in previous postings, IMO.
I have installed many of them and never heard any complaints from owners.

Roof top A/Cs can be protected against low voltage starts by using a soft-start device.
SoftStartRV – The RV AC Soft Start For Any Air Conditioner - Guaranteed

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #16
"...if you have the hardwired EMSHW30C model: there's a bypass switch on that model's remote monitor."

Thanks for adding that little known feature Andy. The switch is located underneath the monitor module and is easily overlooked. I was going to explain it much as you did but life got in the way. Back in the foggy Lazy Daze past I recall having used it but now cannot recall the circumstance.  ;D   ::)
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #17
"...if you have the hardwired EMSHW30C model: there's a bypass switch on that model's remote monitor."

Thanks for adding that little known feature Andy. The switch is located underneath the monitor module and is easily overlooked. I was going to explain it much as you did but life got in the way. Back in the foggy Lazy Daze past I recall having used it but now cannot recall the circumstance.  ;D   ::)
Used it recently visiting a friend's older house wired w/o a ground circuit.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #18
I saw a great article on surge protectors vs ems vs voltage regulators.

I don’t have the link right now - it was in a Mexican travel group.

The voltage in some areas of Mexico can vary a lot (under and over).

The article said:

Home Depot in Mexico also sells a small 15 Amp regulator for about $80 that is ideal for a Class B with a small A/C. It cannot handle a standard 13.5 A/C, but will run a microwave. It comes in a Red & White Box. There are other similar models that cost a bit more. There are usually logos on the box that indicate what they are meant to power. Pick one that shows appliances. They are invariably made for15 Amp.

We are in Mexico for a while and plan to pick one up if we get to a town big enough to have a Home Depot (or see it in a hardware store).
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #19
I was looking at Soft Start's plug in surge protector.  It appears that it has over/under voltage protection as well as all the checks for when you first plug it in.  Does anyone have experience with the Soft Start and is it also an EMS?
Ross Taylor
2017 MB

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #20
I was looking at Soft Start's plug in surge protector.  It appears that it has over/under voltage protection as well as all the checks for when you first plug it in.  Does anyone have experience with the Soft Start and is it also an EMS?
Can you provide a link? The only thing I see is from Active Start.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit



Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #23
Softstartup website - "SoftStartUp Is No Longer Being Offered for Sale"

  Karen~Liam
    98 ` MB
     NinA
1998 ~ MB  WanderDaze
previously a 1984 Winnebago itaska- The Road Warrior, before that several VW Buses and before that a 1965 Chrysler Convertible Newport or our 1969 Chrysler La Barron with an ice box and a couple sleeping bags

Re: Surge Power Protector Question
Reply #24
I was looking at Soft Start's plug in surge protector.  It appears that it has over/under voltage protection as well as all the checks for when you first plug it in.  Does anyone have experience with the Soft Start and is it also an EMS?

I installed a soft start two years ago to prevent additional damage to our LD's A/C . Brownouts destroyed a hard-start starting capacitor and burned a wire between the control switch and compressor in the past.
I have not had any issues since installing the soft start, the A/C is quieter and when running at night, it eliminated most of the bumps or bangs when the compressor starts, an annoyance when sleeping in hot climates.

Checking the site, it looks like the Soft Start RV is available. There are soft-start available from other manufacturers.
CHOOSE YOUR PACKAGE OFFER - SoftStartRV

The soft start is not an EMS, it starts the compressor slowly, reducing peak amperage draw, and preventing overloading of the compressor. It's not cheap but can save your rooftop A/C from damage or being burned up.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze