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input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
After reading all the posts on Lithium battery conversions etc.....I decided the cost (for a retired person) is prohibitive.Took my Rv back to the RV people who sold me expensive AGM batteries which failed 2 years ago. They replaced them at no cost to me and after 2 years the new ones failed again. They now say they believe they know why 2 sets of batteries failed, and that is the 2002 charge/controller charges the batts up fast but then stays at a high rate and does NOT go down to a "float" level charge rate. They say when I store my LD plugged into shore power for extended periods it damages the batteries. 2 choices to correct they say...move a "new" controller under refrigerator as they have nothing to go into original wall cutout over dinette with 4+ hours of labour plus cost of new controller the cost can be $1000 to $1200. A cheaper..less elegant version is to get a "smart" charger/maintainer and NOT use shore power. I asked "how about 3/4 day stays with hookups"? They "punted" and said that small time shouldn't hurt the batts(2 AGM 6 volts).
                                          Geez...nothing is simple..right? If I have to move controller I could have Lithium batts put there too! Of course add lots more$!!
                    
2002 RB
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #1 –
Your RV people's explanation of why the batteries failed sounds plausible. Converter/chargers in 2002 were pretty crude, and AGMs really don't like to be overcharged. (Those chargers don't actually charge very fast, as I recall, but when plugged into shore power during storage, they would just keep in pumping in the juice.)

Here's something you can do now for not much money: buy an electrical timer (available almost anywhere from ten to fifteen bucks) and set it to provide power for one hour a day. Use that while in storage to keep the house batteries happy without overcharging them. (These timers are 15 amp devices with household plugs and sockets, so you may need to add adapters to mate with your 30 A shore power cord, if you don't already have such.)

In the long run, there are replacement converters with "intelligent" charging that will be much kinder to your batteries than the old Magnetek or Parallax one you have now. And contrary to what your RV people told you, they will fit in the same space, so installation doesn't mean rerouting all your wiring to a new location. People here have done the swap and can tell you more. First, though, check out this article on converters in the Lazy Daze Companion.

Lithium batteries are nice, but if you have fairly new AGMs and treat them well, they can last five to seven years, so you need not rush into a major upgrade right now.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #2 –
Will "tackle" the project myself..read up on it watch videos etc. with the $ I save I could increase the batts from 2 to 4!
2002 RB
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #3 –
Hi Diver44;  We have a lot of examples, descriptions and photos of just such a replacement of the old charger you have with a smart 4 stage charger, here on the group files. You can't equalize AGM batteries, so call it a three stage charger. Less than $300, and not that difficult.  For now Andy has the best solution for long term storage with 110VAC available.    This is the company I used for a new converter/charger.     PD 4655VL 55 Amp Converter Upgrade, Optional Remote Pendant       RonB     I'd like to know what floorplan you have, now that we know you have a 2002.
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #4 –
I have 261/2 ft rear batheroom model and the electrical panel is below the sink/gas range and a monitor/screen is above the dinette on the back (rear) wall.
2002 RB
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #5 –
PS: What do you estimate labour hours are to install new converter upgrade please?
2002 RB
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #6 –
Hi Diver44;  For someone who has tools at hand, and done it before about an hour. For you at home maybe 2 hours.  The harder part is changing the fuse board to a more modern one, if needed. I think that you do  need to change that out, and it would take another hour or two to do that.       (Actually it took a few days because I changed a bunch of other things around as well, partially because the 'TK is so short of space).
    Here is a link to some pictures of the conversion in a 2008 RB  Reply #21    Parallax 7345 Converter - house batteries not charging on shore power  
     Also check out the Lazy Daze Companion (listed on the first page)   The Lazy Daze Companion: Converter       RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #7 –
Ron....was just talking to my RV service people..they R saying that there is a water heater behind there and "are you sure it would fit"? I told them.."well I will know for sure when LD people get back to me later today. So you said, "I think you do need to change fuse board out to a more modern one". That changes the whole scenario! Does anyone on this forum know definitively if just the controller part can be changed or does the Fuse board have to be changes also? Cannot you use a saw and enlarge the opening a bit? Anyone know for sure? Steve  
2002 RB
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #8 –
Quote from: diver44  - 
Ron....was just talking to my RV service people..they R saying that there is a water heater behind there and "are you sure it would fit"? I told them.."well I will know for sure when LD people get back to me later today. So you said, "I think you do need to change fuse board out to a more modern one". That changes the whole scenario! Does anyone on this forum know definitively if just the controller part can be changed or does the Fuse board have to be changes also? Cannot you use a saw and enlarge the opening a bit? Anyone know for sure? Steve  

Hi Steve, I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding something here, or if you have a serious problem with the RV service center that you're currently using. I cannot tell for sure.

I have a 2003 RB, no significant difference to your 2002 RB. I removed the old Parallax converter and replaced it with a Progressive Dynamics 4655Li just a few weeks ago without any fitment issue. This fit perfectly in the spot that the old Parallax converter was (under the oven, as you mentioned earlier).

I bought my new converter at Best Converter (see the link in Ron's reply to you above). It came with a new DC fuse panel which I also installed without difficulty (this was NOT hard to do, I just had to clip a couple of wire ties so that I had enough slack in the 12v DC wires to work). I used the Lazy Daze Companion link that Ron posted above as a general guide (The Lazy Daze Companion: Converter), and phoned a friend (Mike Coachman) to make sure I was doing things right.

Also, here is a good YouTube video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrj7mGp-n7g&t=146s

I am not a RV tech, and this took me about 1.5 to 2 hours to do -- going very slowly and cautiously -- because I'd never done this before. This INCLUDES changing out the 12v DC fuse board. A qualified RV tech would likely have this done in 45 minutes at MOST (likely including a 15 minute coffee break). Sort of joking, but hopefully you get my point.

What concerns me is the question they asked you: "Are you sure it would fit?" and mentioning the water heater. They should know automatically that it would fit, without question.  This is so completely off the wall, that it makes me think I'm misunderstanding something in your posts.

Given the quote range they gave you, are they also replacing a solar charge controller as well? Do you have solar? There is no way is heck I'd pay someone $1200 for this job.

I hope this helps! PM me if you have questions.
Jason



Jason

2003 Rear Bath
"Razor Crest"
Our first RV, purchased from the original owner 01/2022
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #9 –
ok..I think we are on the same page...I hope!! You say the controller came with a "new" fuse panel also and everything fit right in to the space..right? Was confused when Ron (I think) said I would have to change fuse panel as well. You say BOTH came and they fit...horah! I won't pay $1200 either....although they (RV people) "pushed back" and said even if it fits they would charge 3 hrs labour!
                      Being as I know NOTHING about electrical...I could impose on a friend who DOES know to do it and then take he & his wife to dinner. Haven't gone to your "link" yet...assume price is reasonable?
2002 RB
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #10 –
Hi Diver44;  No modifications to the furniture are necessary.  The converter electronics swaps out the old and inserts the new in the compartment below the breakers (110VAC) and (12v) Fuse board. I didn't remove my power center from the wall, because I could remove the drawer directly above it in my floor plan.  It might be easier to work on if pulled out, but that is temporary, and when the conversion is done, it is all put back into the wall.  I can tell by looking at the old fuse panel, if you need to upgrade. You could help by telling us the model of converter you do have.  Is it a Magnetek 6345, or the newer Parallax 7345?  Randy at Bestconverters.com can help. That's what they do.
     Perhaps a different service company is in order. What part of the country are you in? Other members here might have suggestions of RV service providers.  I'm not familiar with the 'innards' of other floor plans.  Yours is an RB.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
 
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #11 –
PS: I'm not so "thrilled" with their expertise! When they sold me the 1st set of batteries they should have addressed the charge/controller. When they replaced the "failed" batteries (they say at their cost) they should have addressed the controller. Now we are on the 3rd set and they ARE finally addressing the "problem", but as I said their solution was to totally move the whole charger to a new location. As I also mentioned they want 3 hrs labour even it the replacement fits! I'm not happy!
                The video seems straight forward...just replace one wire at a time....looks like NO MORE  than one hour for a "newbie".
2002 RB
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #12 –
Quote from: diver44  - 
                     Being as I know NOTHING about electrical...I could impose on a friend who DOES know to do it and then take he & his wife to dinner....
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First, you know enough about electrical to not "boldly go where angels fear to tread".  That's a leg up on some people.
Dinner for someone who does know electrical sounds like a good investment.
Take notes - learning enough to know what to leave alone is valuable.
Good luck.
Joel
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #13 –
Quote from: diver44  - 
PS: I'm not so "thrilled" with their expertise! When they sold me the 1st set of batteries they should have addressed the charge/controller. When they replaced the "failed" batteries (they say at their cost) they should have addressed the controller. Now we are on the 3rd set and they ARE finally addressing the "problem", but as I said their solution was to totally move the whole charger to a new location. As I also mentioned they want 3 hrs labour even it the replacement fits! I'm not happy!
                The video seems straight forward...just replace one wire at a time....looks like NO MORE  than one hour for a "newbie".
Before going through all those AGMs I would have switched back to flooded cell batteries and a Pro-Fill system to keep the electrolyte level topped off. Your converter is not great, but keeping it with the above and checking every couple of weeks the batteries should last 5-6 years - and they are much less expensive than the AGMs. Note that although LFP batteries are expensive, a pair of 100Ahr lithiums will give about the same useable capacity as 4 100Ahr lead-acid ones of any flavor - and last years longer. To take full advantage of their capabilities, upgrading also the converter and solar charge controller gives best results. Hard to make a good argument for AGMs these days...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #14 –
"a pair of 100Ahr lithiums will give about the same useable capacity as 4 100Ahr lead-acid ones of any flavor"

Well, not quite. Using the "don't go below 20%" rule of thumb for longest life with LiFePO4 batteries, a pair of 100 Ah ones will give you 160 amp-hours of usable capacity. Using the corresponding "don't go below 50%" rule of thumb, four 100 Ah AGMs will give you 200 Ah of usable capacity--25% more.

But this is nitpicking. The LiFePO4 batteries will charge much faster, meaning fewer hours of generator operation or sunshine on solar panels will be needed to bring them to 100%. And there's a huge difference in weight: two 100 Ah LiFePO4 batteries weigh about 60 pounds, while four AGM batteries weigh more than 250 pounds!

So in the end I agree with Steve: flooded-cell batteries are still the most cost-effective, but as an  upgrade, today's LiFePO4 batteries probably make more sense than AGMs.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #15 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
Well, not quite. Using the "don't go below 20%" rule of thumb for longest life with LiFePO4 batteries, a pair of 100 Ah ones will give you 160 amp-hours of usable capacity. Using the corresponding "don't go below 50%" rule of thumb, four 100 Ah AGMs will give you 200 Ah of usable capacity--25% more.

Actually, I was taking liberty with assumed usage - at a 20-hr discharge rate the above is true, but once higher currents are used, the Pb-acid family fares much worse. When we use our microwave the inverter draws 140A; my wife's hair dryer about 80A on high; our little electric heater in the bathroom about 50A on low. All these uses are brief but do add up, and draw down our LFP's far less than than our old batteries, so that our 200Ah will likely outlast 400Ah of Pb-acid in similar useage. And, the LFPs can do all this with no degradation in lifetime. At least, that's my claim...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: input/advice on 2002 charge/controller possibly damaging AGM batteries
Reply #16 –
"once higher currents are used, the Pb-acid family fares much worse."

True, and I wasn't considering that. Peukert effect means that at high rates of discharge, lead-acid batteries, including AGMs, do much worse than their nominal ratings suggest. LiFePO4 batteries don't have this drawback--another factor in their favor.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"