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Topic: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas? (Read 1001 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #25 –
"I'm not currently able to lift the motorhome at all"

You've probably thought of this, but I sometimes lifted the front end of my Lazy Daze by driving it up onto leveling blocks or ramps. If you do this, be sure to chock the rear wheels solidly.

"Today, I'll head over to Home Depot and get a multimeter or 12V light"

A 12V test light is good for quick checks, and it's cheap. But a digital multimeter is much more useful, because it tells you whether (for example) voltage is present but too low, lets you check fuses and connections for continuity, and many other things. I recommend an autoranging meter--it's less complicated to use, and less intimidating if you're not familiar with this type of instrument. I use a Klein Tools autoranging meter that Home Depot carries.

Good luck, and keep us posted.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #26 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
"I'm not currently able to lift the motorhome at all"

You've probably thought of this, but I sometimes lifted the front end of my Lazy Daze by driving it up onto leveling blocks or ramps. If you do this, be sure to chock the rear wheels solidly.

"Today, I'll head over to Home Depot and get a multimeter or 12V light"

A 12V test light is good for quick checks, and it's cheap. But a digital multimeter is much more useful, because it tells you whether voltage is present but too low, lets you check fuses and connections for continuity, and many other things. I recommend an autoranging meter--it's less complicated to use, and less intimidating if you're not familiar with this type of instrument. I use a Klein Tools autoranging meter that Home Depot carries.

Good luck, and keep us posted.
Thanks for the tip on which multimeter to buy.
Unfortunately, I can't drive up onto ramps though, because I can't get the motor started. 
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #27 –
Got my Klein Tools Multimeter (Thanks Andy), and checked the voltage at the tip of the large red wire that connects to the solenoid.  The reading was 12.45 volts.  Does that mean that it must be that my starter/solenoid is bad, or could it be a Neutral Safety Switch or something else?

Thanks again, in advance, for your additional comments.
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #28 –
"I can't drive up onto ramps though, because I can't get the motor started."

Duh! OK, somebody kick me. I'm an idiot. 😉
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #29 –
Assuming no loads and no charging sources, such as solar panels, 12.45 V is about an 80% charge for a lead-acid battery. That's plenty to start an engine.

However, that's not the whole story. It takes both volts and amps--lots of amps--to start an engine. For example, suppose one of the connections (positive or ground) to your starter is badly corroded, so that the actual clean contact area is tiny. You might still see a good voltage there (especially since a pointed multimeter probe can push through corrosion), but that connection might only be able to pass a few amps, rather than the hundred+ amps needed to start the engine.

So what does your 12.45 V measurement tell you? Well, it seems your battery has a decent charge, and the voltage at the tip of the red wire on the solenoid shows that it's getting to the end of that wire. That leaves a few possibilities:

1. That connection to the solenoid is not good. The way to find out is to take it apart, clean the stud on the solenoid and the terminal on the wire using a wire brush, and put it back together.
2. The connection from the solenoid to the starter motor itself is not good. I'm not familiar with the type of motor+solenoid setup you have--mine was different--so somebody else will have to chime in with details on that.
3. The solenoid is bad.
4. The starter motor is bad.

About those last two possibilities: have you tried tapping on the motor and/or solenoid with a hammer? That's been known to work in an emergency, although it's obviously not a long-term solution. Still, it's worth a try.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
 
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #30 –
While looking for more information, I found a good video on how to diagnose and replace a starter. The presenter covers much of what we've talked about, adds a few more tips, and shows how to actually replace the starter if one chooses to go the DIY route. I thought this was well done and worth watching.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #31 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
While looking for more information, I found a good video on how to diagnose and replace a starter. The presenter covers much of what we've talked about, adds a few more tips, and shows how to actually replace the starter if one chooses to go the DIY route. I thought this was well done and worth watching.
That was definitely worth watching.  Thanks for sharing.  I really appreciate it.
I'm convinced that my connection to the solenoid is bad or there is something wrong with the solenoid/starter combo.  Unfortunately, I'm not able to adequately access this area to clean the connections or replace the solenoid/starter combo, because the headers of the Banks Power Exhaust system run under the solenoid/starter (You can see this in one of the pics I posted earlier).
 And, of course, I don't know how to get these headers off to give me better access.

Guess I'll be looking for a mobile mechanic that can jack the motorhome up and has better equipment/tools and experience.

Of course, I'm open to any other suggestions.  I've learned alot already from everyone and appreciate all of the posts.

Sincerely,
Eric
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #32 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
Assuming no loads and no charging sources, such as solar panels, 12.45 V is about an 80% charge for a lead-acid battery. That's plenty to start an engine.

However, that's not the whole story. It takes both volts and amps--lots of them--to start an engine. Let's say for the sake of argument that one of the connections (positive or ground) to your starter is badly corroded, so that the actual clean contact area is tiny. You might still see a good voltage (especially since a pointed multimeter probe can push through corrosion), but that connection might only be able to pass a few amps, rather than the hundred+ amps needed to start the engine.

So what does your 12.45 V measurement tell you? Well, it seems your battery has a decent charge, and the voltage at the tip of the red wire on the solenoid shows that it's getting to the end of that wire. That leaves a few possibilities:

1. That connection to the solenoid is not good. The way to find out is to take it apart, clean the stud on the solenoid and the terminal on the wire using a wire brush, and put it back together.
2. The connection from the solenoid to the starter motor itself is not good. I'm not familiar with the type of motor+solenoid setup you have--mine was different--so somebody else will have to chime in with details on that.
3. The solenoid is bad.
4. The starter motor is bad.

About those last two possibilities: have you tried tapping on the motor and/or solenoid with a hammer? That's been known to work in an emergency, although it's obviously not a long-term solution. Still, it's worth a try.
I haven't tried the "tap the starter motor or solenoid", because my LD is safely parked at home, and I have no use for getting it started at this point; so, I want to save that option in case I need it and it happens to be a one-time "get out of jail" fix.
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #33 –
Hi Eric:  you wrote  " voltage at the tip of the large red wire that connects to the solenoid"   No actually that's the wrong wire.  That wire goes straight to the chassis battery.  A 600 Amp peak current flows through that, and is too much to go through too many other places.  The solenoid switch is built to carry that current.  The wire you need to measure is the wire that energizes the solenoid switch. Smaller, but of questionable integrity. It's source goes through the key switch, gear selector switch, a few fuses and other relays, before it gets to the solenoid to activate the switch that actually provides current flow to the starter motor.  When you do find that wire, short it to that big red wire cable, and the starter should turn over the engine. It's noisy, don't hit your head or jerk your hand around.  Don't have the key on, or it might start the engine.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #34 –
To follow up on Ron's post, I looked at images of the starter motors on RockAuto.  The typical solenoid configuration has three connections, the main power cable to the battery, a short strap to the starter motor case (grounding to the engine) and the start control  wire.  When the start switch is turned, there should be over 12V at that connection, which is likely the smaller red cable in the OPs pictures.  Also there is likely a flexible ground strap that connects the engine block to the chassis which should be checked.

Art
Art and Barbara
Settled in Atterdag Village of Solvang
2015-2022 fulltime in a 2016 Tiffin Allegro Bus 37AP
2002-2015 2002 LD MB
Art's blog
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #35 –
Quote from: RonB  - 
Hi Eric:  you wrote  " voltage at the tip of the large red wire that connects to the solenoid"   No actually that's the wrong wire.  That wire goes straight to the chassis battery.  A 600 Amp peak current flows through that, and is too much to go through too many other places.  The solenoid switch is built to carry that current.  The wire you need to measure is the wire that energizes the solenoid switch. Smaller, but of questionable integrity. It's source goes through the key switch, gear selector switch, a few fuses and other relays, before it gets to the solenoid to activate the switch that actually provides current flow to the starter motor.  When you do find that wire, short it to that big red wire cable, and the starter should turn over the engine. It's noisy, don't hit your head or jerk your hand around.  Don't have the key on, or it might start the engine.  RonB
Thanks Ron!  Appreciate the advice and caution about flinching my hand and head.  I have to be honest:  shorting that large red wire to anything make me nervous, because I can't even see the big red wire tip carrying hundreds of amps.  I only see the red cover over it.  When I had my multimeter up in there, I just pushed it up in there at the end of the big red wire cover and trusted that I was where I needed to be. In addition to limited visibility, it's difficult to maneuver around the Banks Power headers, and I have to "inchworm" my body around because I'm not able to lift the motorhome at all.
Even with those challenges, I'd like to push forward in case this turns out to be something I can fix myself.  Couple questions:
Is the smaller wire you're referring to the smaller red wire visible in my pic attached to one of my earlier posts?
If I manage to short the large red wire to the smaller red wire, and it starts the engine, does that mean that the solenoid and starter motor are good, and the problem is somewhere along the path from ignition switch, through relays/switches, and ending up where the smaller wire connects to the solenoid?
As a separate test, should I put my multimeter probe on the tip of the smaller red wire to see if it gets energized when turning the ignition key all the way (like when I try to do the usual engine start)? Assuming I see adequate voltage (?) at the smaller red wire tip during those start attempts, wouldn't this mean that all is good up to that point and the problem is with the solenoid or starter, or with at least one their connections (either from the large red wire, small red wire, or something internal to the solenoid or starter)?
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #36 –
Hi Eric;  Exactly!       "As a separate test, should I put my multimeter probe on the tip of the smaller red wire to see if it gets energized when turning the ignition key all the way (like when I try to do the usual engine start)? Assuming I see adequate voltage (?) at the smaller red wire tip during those start attempts, wouldn't this mean that all is good up to that point and the problem is with the solenoid or starter, or with at least one their connections (either from the large red wire, small red wire, or something internal to the solenoid or starter)? "
     If that wire has 12v+ on it when you try to start the engine, then it is more likely the starter. Since all of those parts come as a unit, any one can be bad and you still replace the whole unit.  Supplying 12 volts to that small terminal, will turn the engine over. That would indicate that the starter, solenoid, and internals are working.  If the key were on, which applies power to the fuel and ignition system it should start. 
    I've had my rig towed twice to local Ford dealers. Your motorhome is relatively small compared to some, so you should have towing insurance anyway.  (maximum distances apply).  While educational, any missteps can be really expensive. Call around and see if you can get smaller independents to work on your LD. A mobile repairman isn't the best choice. Especially if it requires disassembly of exhaust components.  Better done in a shop.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #37 –
Quote from: Morgueman  - 
  To me, the corrosion doesn't look too bad from the pics, but maybe that is indeed the issue.

If you can reach the nuts on the terminals, (BIG IF  when youre inchworming around under there)
Remove them and wire brush the studs clean and shiny..all it takes is a little corrosion to  cause your problem.
Make sure to disconnect the starting battery first to avoid any sparks if the fat cable touches ground. And dont try to take apart the smaller wire connection-that terminal on some late Ford starters is easily broken
I try not to break the rules but merely test their elasticity.  '88 22RL converted to Rear Dinette
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #38 –
I'm throwing in the towel, because my access to the solenoid/starter motor is too limited, because of the location of the Banks Power headers and because I'm not equipped to lift the motorhome.  Plus, it's parked outstide and it's been raining every day.  Oh, and did I mention that I'm eager to empty the black tank from our last trip a couple of weeks ago.
Fortunately, I have the Roadside Assistance option on my Progressive Motorhome insurance, and they cover up to 15 miles of towing.
 So, I have a tow truck scheduled to take it to a Ford dealership tomorrow (Jan 4th).
I'll post another update once I have more information.
Thanks again to everyone for educating and guiding me.  I sincerely appreciate it.

Eric

Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #39 –
Eric,

A reliable mechanic is invaluable. I have mine. I used to take my RB to a Ford dealership in town for oil changes and warranty work (chassis AC failure) until they refused RV service or repair (too many owners complaining about rig damage while in for service). My auto mechanic is a fellow RV enthusiasts and is happy to have another of my vehicles to service.

Dumping our black/gray tanks before arrival back home has been problematic for us as well. This situation prompted me to purchase a Macerator which allows me to dump at our residence. Our clean out for sewer lines is about 60’ from our LD pad at the front of the home. A long dedicated lawn hose helps facilitate the dumping process. It’s nice to have this option when needed.

Hope your starter gets repaired soon.

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #40 –
Quote from: Kent Heckethorn  - 
Eric,

A reliable mechanic is invaluable. I have mine. I used to take my RB to a Ford dealership in town for oil changes and warranty work (chassis AC failure) until they refused RV service or repair (too many owners complaining about rig damage while in for service). My auto mechanic is a fellow RV enthusiasts and is happy to have another of my vehicles to service.

Dumping our black/gray tanks before arrival back home has been problematic for us as well. This situation prompted me to purchase a Macerator which allows me to dump at our residence. Our clean out for sewer lines is about 60’ from our LD pad at the front of the home. A long dedicated lawn hose helps facilitate the dumping process. It’s nice to have this option when needed.

Hope your starter gets repaired soon.

Kent
Thanks Kent.  I have a sewer clean-out at my residence, which I love having, but it's in another location from where I park the RV.  So, yeh, a macerator would do the trick in my current situation, but I expect that it will be a very rare occasion that I can't drive my LD to where the sewer clean-out is.
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #41 –
Well, I didn't know towing would become a problem.
Long story short, I waited all day (yesterday) for a tow truck.  Then, a flatbed came and he wasn't able to get it on without the hitch receiver hitting the street.  Trying again tomorrow.
After that incident, I read the forum posts about how to tow a LD (ie. lift the front end up with cradles, and have the driveshaft disconnected).
I'll keep you posted...
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #42 –
Hi Eric.  I've been towed twice. The first time by Ford on a flat bed. (warranty). Second time with a 'fork' (I'll call it that anyway) attached to the front tires. Only the second time required the disconnection of the drive line, (at the differential).  Mark it with soapstone, so that it can be reconnected properly aligned.  Wire up the disconnected end so it won't slip out of the transmission. With water on the road chalk will wash off. I used a tire marker, sort of like a crayon. A center punch will also leave a mark on each part.   My shorter motorhome is one advantage and I have a roller welded under the receiver mount.  The tow truck driver should have had a helper rolling platform just for this occasion.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #43 –
Towing; been there, done that on our very first trip over to the coast after bringing Nocona back to California. Not much fun but thankfully we had driven a second vehicle (prior to being setup to tow) allowing us to follow the tow truck.  There were no dealerships in SLO County willing to work on a RV so we ended up towing from Camp San Luis Obispo, where we were staying, to the Ford dealership in Bakersfield to replace a defective spark plug.  As others have said, the driveshaft needs to be disconnected and wired up.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #44 –
OP here...Just wanted to give everyone the final outcome of this "Intermittent Start Problem" which eventually became a consistent start problem (ie. wouldn't start).  Ford service diagnosed the problem as a bad starter.  They replaced the starter motor, the solenoid attached to it, and the relay in the engine compartment (ie. the one that also connects the house batteries with the engine battery).  I'm not sure why they changed this relay.  The engine now starts noticeably smoother than it did before.

As for the towing service that picked up the RV from the rear (with two "claws" that hooked from the underside of the welded-on hitch receiver):  Maybe I got lucky, but there was no apparent damage that I could see by crawling underneath or anything noticeable while driving it home.

Thanks everyone for your input.  I really appreciate it.

Eric
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #45 –
Hi Eric, thanks for letting us know the results. That combiner relay should be driven by the 'accessory' circuit. That circuit is turned off when the starter motor is energized, so your house batteries won't be helping the chassis battery provide power to the starter.  You can of course put in a push button to do an 'emergency' start, using the house batteries, by temporarily connecting (jumping) the relay to 12v. I'm not sure which year the diode isolator was replaced with the 'no voltage drop' relay.          https://www.supplyhouse.com/White-Rodgers-586-108111-Solenoid-SPNO-15-VDC-Isolated-Coil-Normally-Open-Continuous-Contact-Rating-200-Amps-Inrush-600-Amps?gclid=Cj0KCQiA0eOPBhCGARIsAFIwTs4gQws6LzxHDOujEFj9i1F0ccfuzbDUgO1hi70607__L02wturKK7kaAju_EALw_wcB
I'd get that relay back from whoever did the work. It is unlikely to be bad.
    My E350 chassis is extended by Lazy Daze with relatively lightweight steel.  Your E450 chassis may have main frame rails all the way back to the rear bumper, and it would be safe to lift by the rear bumper/frame rails.
     No one replaces the starter motor separate from the solenoid. They are always replaced as a pair.    RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #46 –
Thanks Ron.  Your post sparked me to look at the relay (that I thought was replaced) more carefully, and now I'm confused about what they actually did. The receipt shows a charge for part # F8UZ14N089AA, and here is a picture of what that part should look like.
I'm also attaching photos of what the relay (the one that connects the house batteries with the engine battery) looked like before the service and what it looks like now.  To me, it just looks like they cleaned up the posts nicely.
Is there some other place where I might find the new part referenced on the receipt?  If not, I'm wondering if they charged me for a new relay, but instead just cleaned the old relay???
Re: Interimittently Won't Start. Any ideas?
Reply #47 –
Hi Eric; Ford easily has 20-30 relays in the chassis. The picture looks to be a Ford part, and may be involved with starting the engine. The one I specified in the link was bought and installed by Lazy Daze to charge your house batteries. So I don’t think your repairman did anything to that relay. RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB